What is Man and Where Does He Go?

[Butch5]

A few more passages that show that the dead are dead.

10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Ps. 88:10 KJV)

17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Ps. 115:17 KJV)

1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:1-4 KJV)

Here we see the same as Gen 2:7. His breath or spirit goes forth, he returns to the dust, and his thought perish. Why do his thoughts perish? Because it is the breath or spirit of God that give man understanding.

8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
(Job 34:14-15 KJV)

Without God's breath or spirit of life all flesh would cease.

17 Indeed it was for my own peace That I had great bitterness; But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You, As I do this day; The father shall make known Your truth to the children. (Isa. 38:17-19 NKJ)

Here in verse 17 the Hebrew word translated "pit" is grave. So, yes, souls go to the grave.

We also see that the dead cannot praise God. Those who go to the grave cannot hope for God's truth.

 

[EmSw]

I have no idea what you're trying to say. However, there is nothing in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit or that he becomes one after death. That is Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

I don't expect you to have any idea. Your mind is set on the earthly flesh only. As such, you can't see things having to do with the spirit. And as such, I don't expect you to understand these verses:

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (speaking of Mary).

Luke 8:55
And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[sdowney717]

A few more passages that show that the dead are dead.

10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Ps. 88:10 KJV)

17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Ps. 115:17 KJV)

1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:1-4 KJV)

Here we see the same as Gen 2:7. His breath or spirit goes forth, he returns to the dust, and his thought perish. Why do his thoughts perish? Because it is the breath or spirit of God that give man understanding.

8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
(Job 34:14-15 KJV)

Without God's breath or spirit of life all flesh would cease.

17 Indeed it was for my own peace That I had great bitterness; But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You, As I do this day; The father shall make known Your truth to the children. (Isa. 38:17-19 NKJ)

Here in verse 17 the Hebrew word translated "pit" is grave. So, yes, souls go to the grave.

We also see that the dead cannot praise God. Those who go to the grave cannot hope for God's truth.

All those are OT verses, while we live in the NC and there are verses that say the opposite of what your saying.

Jesus responds to the sadducees about the life after death.
Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

 

[Butch5]

I don't expect you to have any idea. Your mind is set on the earthly flesh only. As such, you can't see things having to do with the spirit. And as such, I don't expect you to understand these verses:

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (speaking of Mary).

Luke 8:55
And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I understand the Scriptures, it's the nonsensical argument that you're making that I don't understand. You claim that man is a spirit, yet you've not given a hint of where this idea is taught in Scripture. You've posted a few passages that mention the word spirit. Not one of them says that man is a spirit. There's a big difference between having a spirit and being one. I've already acknowledged that man has a spirit in him. It is the breath/spirit of life from God. We see that in Gen 2:7. However, having a spirit in you doesn't mean you are one. If I eat a cheeseburger, I have a cheeseburger in me. That doesn't mean I am a cheeseburger. Even the language supports what I said. The word "my" denotes possession or belonging. It doesn't denote person. The word "me" denotes person. It's the same with passage that say, 'your spirit'. It denotes possession or belonging, not person. The "you" denotes person.

You've presented a few passages without context or commentary. So, we have to guess how you understand these passages since we, or at least I can't read minds. However, your posting of these passages to support your argument is actually a logical fallacy. It's called Begging the Question or circular reasoning. You see none of the passages you posted say that man is a spirit. So, you've inferred that from them. However, your premise is that man is a spirit. So, you conclusion is just a restatement of your premise without any evidence. You've also made an assumption that your inference is correct, yet you've not proven it is. You've simply posted these passages and assumed that your understanding of them is correct. Again, you haven't proven that. So, your argument is that your understanding of the passages (whatever it is) is correct and anyone who disagrees with it is wrong. That's not a valid form of reasoning.

Now, as I said, I'm more that willing to discuss this subject with anyone. However, you're going to have to actually engage the material.

 

[Butch5]

All those are OT verses, while we live in the NC and there are verses that say the opposite of what your saying.

Jesus responds to the sadducees about the life after death.
Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 20:38
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

No, there aren't. You're simply misunderstanding those passages. If you read them in context you'll see that they are about the resurrection.

Are you suggesting that there are contradictions in the Scriptures?

 

[EmSw]

I understand the Scriptures, it's the nonsensical argument that you're making that I don't understand. You claim that man is a spirit, yet you've not given a hint of where this idea is taught in Scripture. You've posted a few passages that mention the word spirit. Not one of them says that man is a spirit. There's a big difference between having a spirit and being one. I've already acknowledged that man has a spirit in him. It is the breath/spirit of life from God. We see that in Gen 2:7. However, having a spirit in you doesn't mean you are one. If I eat a cheeseburger, I have a cheeseburger in me. That doesn't mean I am a cheeseburger. Even the language supports what I said. The word "my" denotes possession or belonging. It doesn't denote person. The word "me" denotes person. It's the same with passage that say, 'your spirit'. It denotes possession or belonging, not person. The "you" denotes person.

You've presented a few passages without context or commentary. So, we have to guess how you understand these passages since we, or at least I can't read minds. However, your posting of these passages to support your argument is actually a logical fallacy. It's called Begging the Question or circular reasoning. You see none of the passages you posted say that man is a spirit. So, you've inferred that from them. However, your premise is that man is a spirit. So, you conclusion is just a restatement of your premise without any evidence. You've also made an assumption that your inference is correct, yet you've not proven it is. You've simply posted these passages and assumed that your understanding of them is correct. Again, you haven't proven that. So, your argument is that your understanding of the passages (whatever it is) is correct and anyone who disagrees with it is wrong. That's not a valid form of reasoning.

Now, as I said, I'm more that willing to discuss this subject with anyone. However, you're going to have to actually engage the material.

Butch, what are your thoughts? Are they physical? Do they come from your physical body?

Also, you have affections, desires, loves, and understanding. Are these not you? Are they not physical? Aren't these spiritual?

 

[Butch5]

Butch, what are your thoughts? Are they physical? Do they come from your physical body?

Also, you have affections, desires, loves, and understanding. Are these not you? Are they not physical? Aren't these spiritual?

Where do all of these come from? Your body. David said, when a man dies his thoughts cease. That indicates that they come from the body. Of course we know they do, they come from the brain. If the brain is dead there are no feeling or thoughts.

By saying, "aren't they spiritual" you've already assumed a meaning for what it means. What does spiritual mean?

I can tell you what it means according to Scripture. The word spiritual is an adjective. An adjective is adescriptive word. It brings some qualities to the noun. To say something is spiritual means It has qualities of the spirit or breath. Are thoughts of the spirit or breath?

8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

The spirit or breath in man is the breath or spirit of life from the Almighty. It is what give man understanding. So, yes, thoughts and feelings are spiritual in this sense. Not in the sense that man is a spirit that operates temporarily is a flesh body.

Without the breath or spirit of life from God, mans thoughts perish.

Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:1-4 KJV)

Notice the contrast here. While David is alive he will praise the Lord. He knows he can't do so when he is dead. He said, like we've seen elsewhere, when a man dies, his breath or spirit, which we know is the breath/spirit of life from God, goes forth, and he returns to the dust. That very day his thoughts perish. If he was alive and conscious somewhere surely his thoughts haven't perished, yet David, who was a prophet, said they do

 

[EmSw]

Where do all of these come from? Your body. David said, when a man dies his thoughts cease. That indicates that they come from the body. Of course we know they do, they come from the brain. If the brain is dead there are no feeling or thoughts.

By saying, "aren't they spiritual" you've already assumed a meaning for what it means. What does spiritual mean?

I can tell you what it means according to Scripture. The word spiritual is an adjective. An adjective is adescriptive word. It brings some qualities to the noun. To say something is spiritual means It has qualities of the spirit or breath. Are thoughts of the spirit or breath?

8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

The spirit or breath in man is the breath or spirit of life from the Almighty. It is what give man understanding. So, yes, thoughts and feelings are spiritual in this sense. Not in the sense that man is a spirit that operates temporarily is a flesh body.

Without the breath or spirit of life from God, mans thoughts perish.

Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:1-4 KJV)

Notice the contrast here. While David is alive he will praise the Lord. He knows he can't do so when he is dead. He said, like we've seen elsewhere, when a man dies, his breath or spirit, which we know is the breath/spirit of life from God, goes forth, and he returns to the dust. That very day his thoughts perish. If he was alive and conscious somewhere surely his thoughts haven't perished, yet David, who was a prophet, said they do

I do feel disappointment in your thoughts. You are nothing but a figment of your earthly imagination. You of all people are most miserable, not knowing anything about your future. You have no idea if you are a creation of God, or a creation of imagination.

The body is a lifeless piece of earth. As James says, without the spirit, the body is dead. But the body has become your 'life', nothing but a rag doll in the hands of delusions. Heaven is but an unreal, and unattainable reverie.

Without your spirit, you would cease to exist, not only in the future, but in this life also. You serve a god of the dead, not the living. How is it you know anything about life, since you are so preoccupied with death?

 

[Butch5]

I do feel disappointment in your thoughts. You are nothing but a figment of your earthly imagination. You of all people are most miserable, not knowing anything about your future. You have no idea if you are a creation of God, or a creation of imagination.

The body is a lifeless piece of earth. As James says, without the spirit, the body is dead. But the body has become your 'life', nothing but a rag doll in the hands of delusions. Heaven is but an unreal, and unattainable reverie.

Without your spirit, you would cease to exist, not only in the future, but in this life also. You serve a god of the dead, not the living. How is it you know anything about life, since you are so preoccupied with death?

Well, I see you have no argument so we get this nonsense. What I've given you is stated plainly in Scripture. What you've claimed is not. You claim that man is a spirit, yet God said he is dust. The Bible says that man will die. You say he doesn't. It seems to me that you've got beliefs that are counter to what the Scriptures teach. You should let go of Plato's philosophy and embrace what the Scriptures say.

 

[Butch5]

I've posted some passages that show what a man is and that he is a physical being. Here is one that is pretty clear. God gave Ezekiel a vision of the Resurrection.

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1-14 KJV)

The words in red are all the same Hebrew word, ruach. What we see here is the same thing we saw in Gen 2:7. Here it's explained in a little more detail. We see God bringing the bones together, then putting sinew and skin on the bones. However, notice that the bodies are not a live. We see that God will breath or spirit into them and they will live. But, we've got one statement here that is absolutely crystal clear. God said He would put "HIS" breath/spirit into them and they would live. He didn't say He's put their spirit back into their bodies, He said He put "HIS" breath/spirit into them. So, once again we see that it is the breath/spirit that comes from God that give man life. Without God's breath man cannot live. We see this elsewhere in the Scriptures too.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

Here we see that it is God's breath/spirit that is keeping everything alive. Also note that Job says man would turn again unto dust. He didn't say man's body would turn to dust, He said, man would turn to dust.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1 Tim. 6:13 NKJ)

Here too we see that God gives (present tense) to all things. Again, it's the breath of God that keeps man alive.

 

[EmSw]

Well, I see you have no argument so we get this nonsense. What I've given you is stated plainly in Scripture. What you've claimed is not. You claim that man is a spirit, yet God said he is dust. The Bible says that man will die. You say he doesn't. It seems to me that you've got beliefs that are counter to what the Scriptures teach. You should let go of Plato's philosophy and embrace what the Scriptures say.

Coming from a dead man who has no hope of living in Heaven. As I said, you serve a god of the dead, and not the God of the living.

 

[sdowney717]

No, there aren't. You're simply misunderstanding those passages. If you read them in context you'll see that they are about the resurrection.

Are you suggesting that there are contradictions in the Scriptures?

Ok, Mr. green eggs and ham, how about this in Hebrews 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

God has made a city for them and it is not a city of the dead, and that place God prepared for them, the people who are there are 'the spirits of just (justified by God) men made perfect. When God makes you born of Himself, you He makes alive who were dead. Jesus even says this,
John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And there is a great cloud of witnesses, people in the heavenly city who physically died but who are alive spiritually seeing and testifying. If your a witness then you must be conscious! The goal here was to run the race before us with patient endurance in faith, for the end prize is to go to be where Jesus is, seated at the right hand of God, and Jesus is conscious not sleeping up there.

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Hebrews 11:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[Butch5]

Coming from a dead man who has no hope of living in Heaven. As I said, you serve a god of the dead, and not the God of the living.

You might want to watch what you're saying here. Remember, everything I posted was stated plainly in the Scriptures which were inspired by God. I didn't give you inferences. I gave you clear statements. On the other hand, you've not presented a single passage of Scripture that states that man is a spirit.

As for Heaven, no one has a hope of living in Heaven. That's not what the Scriptures teach. You don't see anyone in the Scriptures saying we get to go to Heaven when we die. That was the hope of the Gnositcs and the Greeks. Do a Google search for what Plato taught. You'll find that he believed that souls were immortal. Sound familiar? He taught that the body was a prison of the soul. He taught that man's destiny was for the soul to escape the body and ascend through the heavens to be with the ultimate god? Does that sound familiar? That's what a lot Christians today believe. However, in the Scriptures the Christian hope is always the Resurrection, not Heaven.

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: (Job 19:25-26 KJV)

Notice Job's expectation is to see God in his flesh, not in Heaven.

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn. 11:21-26 KJV)

Notice here that when Martha is mouring, Jesus tells her that her brother will rise again. He says nothig about Lazarus being in Heaven with God.

However, Jesus makes it crystal clear in John when He tells the disciples that where He is going they cannot go.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (Jn. 13:33-34 KJV)

Then He tells them that they can't follow Him for a will while but that they will follow Him later.

36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. (Jn. 13:36 KJV)

So, why couldn't they follow Him? It was because He wasn't there. Remember when Jesus called His disciples He said, "follow Me". They had been following Him for about three years at this point. He was going away and while He was gone they couldn't follow Him. However, He said He would come again so that they could be with Him.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jn. 14:2-3 KJV)

So, the disciples couldn't go where He was going and in order for them to be together again Jesus said He'd return. The disciples, like the Jews could not go to Heaven. No one goes to Heaven. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that people will be living in Heaven. The Christian hope is always the Resurrection.

Paul said of dead believers, if there is no resurrection, those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were in Heaven. The only two options he gives are the resurrection or perishing.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:16-18 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Ok, Mr. green eggs and ham, how about this in Hebrews 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

God has made a city for them and it is not a city of the dead, and that place God prepared for them, the people who are there are 'the spirits of just (justified by God) men made perfect. When God makes you born of Himself, you He makes alive who were dead. Jesus even says this,
John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And there is a great cloud of witnesses, people in the heavenly city who physically died but who are alive spiritually seeing and testifying. If your a witness then you must be conscious! The goal here was to run the race before us with patient endurance in faith, for the end prize is to go to be where Jesus is, seated at the right hand of God, and Jesus is conscious not sleeping up there.

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Hebrews 11:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

As I said before, I'm not going to jump from passage to passage. If you want to discuss the subject I'm more than willing to. However, you'll have to engage the evidence, not just jump from passage to passage. I began by laying out my argument that man is a physical being. I used clear statements of Scripture to do so. You've not addressed that. You're argument is based on your presupposition that man is a spirit and able to live apart from the body. You have not proven that presupposition so at this point it's just an opinion. If you'd like to show where Scripture teaches this idea I'm all ears. However, the passage that you posted doesn't teach that man is a spirit so your having posted it is a logic fallacy known as Begging the Question. Your premise is that man is a spirit. You present a passage that "YOU" believe is talking about a spirit as a disembodied human being and then claim the passage supports your claim. What you've done is merely restate your premise without any evidence.

Additionally, you've taken the passages out of context. What did Jesus mean by that statement? He obviously didn't mean what you're claiming because He stated plainly to the Jews and to the apostles that they could not go where He was going. Jesus also taught that believers would die. Your argument is that they don't.

Regarding the Hebrews passages. What is the heavenly Jerusalem? Remember, heavenly is an adjective not a noun. If it was a noun it would be speaking of Heaven. However, it's not. It an adjective, heavenly. An adjective modifies a noun. The idea is to bring some attributes of Heaven to this Jerusalem. If someone says, this ice cream is heavenly, no one argues that the ice cream is in Heaven.

Also, note the spirits, breaths, of just men. We saw from Genesis 2:7 that man has a breath/spirit in him. It is the breath/spirit of life. We also saw that this breath/spirit returns to God when man dies. So, we would expect to see these breaths of just men in Heaven. However, we also learned that these breaths were something from God, not disembodied human beings.

Also note that Paul said all of these people died, having not received the promise. You're argument is that they are alive, yet Paul said they died.

 

[sdowney717]

As I said before, I'm not going to jump from passage to passage. If you want to discuss the subject I'm more than willing to. However, you'll have to engage the evidence, not just jump from passage to passage. I began by laying out my argument that man is a physical being. I used clear statements of Scripture to do so. You've not addressed that. You're argument is based on your presupposition that man is a spirit and able to live apart from the body. You have not proven that presupposition so at this point it's just an opinion. If you'd like to show where Scripture teaches this idea I'm all ears. However, the passage that you posted doesn't teach that man is a spirit so your having posted it is a logic fallacy known as Begging the Question. Your premise is that man is a spirit. You present a passage that "YOU" believe is talking about a spirit as a disembodied human being and then claim the passage supports your claim. What you've done is merely restate your premise without any evidence.

Additionally, you've taken the passages out of context. What did Jesus mean by that statement? He obviously didn't mean what you're claiming because He stated plainly to the Jews and to the apostles that they could not go where He was going. Jesus also taught that believers would die. Your argument is that they don't.

Regarding the Hebrews passages. What is the heavenly Jerusalem? Remember, heavenly is an adjective not a noun. If it was a noun it would be speaking of Heaven. However, it's not. It an adjective, heavenly. An adjective modifies a noun. The idea is to bring some attributes of Heaven to this Jerusalem. If someone says, this ice cream is heavenly, no one argues that the ice cream is in Heaven.

Also, note the spirits, breaths, of just men. We saw from Genesis 2:7 that man has a breath/spirit in him. It is the breath/spirit of life. We also saw that this breath/spirit returns to God when man dies. So, we would expect to see these breaths of just men in Heaven. However, we also learned that these breaths were something from God, not disembodied human beings.

Also note that Paul said all of these people died, having not received the promise. You're argument is that they are alive, yet Paul said they died.

They did not receive the promise in their life in the flesh, in their body, but they did because as it says, God has made for them a city, in heaven, in which to dwell. Paul says our citizenship is in heaven.

Hebrews 11:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faithful Abraham
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus told us He goes to prepare a place for us, that place is in heaven, or say the New Jerusalem.
And He will receive us unto Himself, so where He is we will be also.
Jesus was going to the Father, to make this place, a place where we will also live with the Father and the Son. This place is in the Father's house or as John the Baptist says, His barn!

John 14 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Way, the Truth, and the Life

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Matthew 3:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [a]and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

 

[Butch5]

They did not receive the promise in their life in the flesh, in their body, but they did because as it says, God has made for them a city, in heaven, in which to dwell. Paul says our citizenship is in heaven.

Hebrews 11:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faithful Abraham
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Paul didn't say anything about them not receiving the promise in their body. They are your words. That's just an attempt to make the passage fit your beliefs. Again, you haven't established from Scripture that it is even possible for a man to live apart from the body.

You're bringing presuppositions to the text that don't align with what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures don't teach that man is a spirit.

I would also submit that you're misunderstanding Paul. Paul uses figuratlve language quite often. Remember that Peter who literally walked with Jesus and had his understanding of the Scriptures opened personally by Jesus , said this,

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.(2 Pet. 3:15-16 KJV)

Peter had the Scriptures explained to him personally by Jesus and even Peter said that somethings Paul writes are hard to understand. If Peter had trouble understanding them how much more the people of today? Peter didn't have language and cultural barriers like we do. That's not to say that Paul can't be understood. However, pulling a passage out of context and saying it means xyz probably isn't going to cut it. One really needs to make sure that Paul's words are in context.

The way you've interpreted these passages runs counter to what is taught elsewhere in the Scriptures and also to what Paul himself said. Paul said in 1 Cor. of dead believers, if there is no resurrection, they'd perished. The only two options he gives for dead believers is they either are resurrected or they've perished. And these were dead believers so one can't claim he's talking about their bodies.

How do you reconcile that your interpretation runs counter to not only Scripture but Paul himself?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus told us He goes to prepare a place for us, that place is in heaven, or say the New Jerusalem.
And He will receive us unto Himself, so where He is we will be also.
Jesus was going to the Father, to make this place, a place where we will also live with the Father and the Son. This place is in the Father's house or as John the Baptist says, His barn!

John 14 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Way, the Truth, and the Life

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Matthew 3:11-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [a]and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

You might want to read that passage more closely. He said He would return so that where He is they could be also. He had just told them that they couldn't go where He was going.

 

[EmSw]

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn. 11:21-26 KJV)

I will ask you what Jesus asked Martha. Do you believe those who believe in Him will never die?

 

[sdowney717]

Paul didn't say anything about them not receiving the promise in their body. They are your words. That's just an attempt to make the passage fit your beliefs. Again, you haven't established from Scripture that it is even possible for a man to live apart from the body.

You're bringing presuppositions to the text that don't align with what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures don't teach that man is a spirit.

I would also submit that you're misunderstanding Paul. Paul uses figuratlve language quite often. Remember that Peter who literally walked with Jesus and had his understanding of the Scriptures opened personally by Jesus , said this,

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.(2 Pet. 3:15-16 KJV)

Peter had the Scriptures explained to him personally by Jesus and even Peter said that somethings Paul writes are hard to understand. If Peter had trouble understanding them how much more the people of today? Peter didn't have language and cultural barriers like we do. That's not to say that Paul can't be understood. However, pulling a passage out of context and saying it means xyz probably isn't going to cut it. One really needs to make sure that Paul's words are in context.

The way you've interpreted these passages runs counter to what is taught elsewhere in the Scriptures and also to what Paul himself said. Paul said in 1 Cor. of dead believers, if there is no resurrection, they'd perished. The only two options he gives for dead believers is they either are resurrected or they've perished. And these were dead believers so one can't claim he's talking about their bodies.

How do you reconcile that your interpretation runs counter to not only Scripture but Paul himself?

Sure, I have established a man lives apart from the body.
The thief next to Christ on the cross died physically as did Christ.
They both went together to paradise as spirits having departed the body.
In paradise there is conscious life after physical death, but no body yet, that waits till the resurrection.

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

And also Steven murdered, departed this life and was received in heaven.

Acts 7:59
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”