Hi Butch, this is a bit unusual for me, but let's start with these two passages (that speak of/show people as alive, even though their bodies lie dead in the grave):
Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
Mark 12
26 Regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.
--David
Hi David,
First, I'd like to point out that neither of these passages "teach" that man is alive when he is dead. That's why I pointed to Gen 2:7. It states plainly how God created man.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)
Moses records that God created man from the dust of the earth. From this we can conclude that man consists of the elements of the earth. After creating the man God breathed into him the breath or spirit (same word) of life and the man became a living soul. From this we can conclude that a living soul consists of the man, the body created from the elements, and the breath or spirit of life from God. Christians often say that man is, body, soul, and spirit. Well we have all three of those here. We have the soul which consists of a body (the man} and the breath or spirit of God. So ,the body, the soul, and the spirit which is God's, are accounted for. This is what I mean by the Scriptures teaching us. Moses recorded how God created man. From this I conclude that man is a physical being which is animated by the breath or spirit of God. God also told Adam that he was dust.
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)
Here God told Adam, "dust thou art". He didn't say Adam your body is dust, He said, you, are dust. Adam was dust.
If we look at Ecclesiastes 3 we see what happens to a man when he dies.
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)
Here we see that there is no difference between the death of a man or an animal. He says they both have one breath or spirit. We saw from Gen. 2:7 that that breath or spirit is the breath or spirit of life from God. Note also that he says both man and animal go to one place, they return to the dust. He doesn't say the man's body returns to dust, but, the man. Since a living soul consists of both a body and the breath or spirit of life the two must remain to have a soul. If one is missing we no longer have a soul. We see that the body, the man, returns to the dust and God's breath or spirit of life goes upward. In chapter 12 he states that it returns to God. So we all three components of the man accounted for. There is nothing left of the man that can live on after he dies.
This concept is supported through out the Old Testament. King David was a prophet and said,
Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:1-4 KJV)
Notice it's the same process when the man dies, his breath or spirit of life goes froth, and the man returns to the dust. However, David adds another insight, the man's thoughts perish that very day. If a man's thoughts perish the very day he dies, surely he can't be conscious somewhere else. There are quite few passages like this in the Scriptures. Job said,
4 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)
Notice Job says if God retrieved His spirit and His breath (this is a parallelism) all flesh would die. This indicates that God is giving life to all things that live.
You see, this is what I mean by teaching. These passage state plainly what a man is made of and what a soul is made of. I'm not trying to infer things from these passages, it's stated out right
Given this understanding of man, how are we to understand the passages that you posted. Well from what I've post above I've formed a presupposition, that being that man is a physical being that cannot life apart from the body. If there is no body there is no life. This is the presupposition that I am approaching the text with.
Looking at the first passage you posted regarding the Transfiguration, Jesus stated that it was vision. The context is the coming of Christ's kingdom. Christ's kingdom had not yet come so it couldn't have been a real event. Also, Luke's account says that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus is glory. This term, to appear in glory, is used of the resurrection. Moses and Elijah couldn't have already been resurrected as Jesus had not died yet. Paul said that Christ is the first fruits from the dead.
The other passage, in context is about the resurrection. The passage actually says, "but as touching the resurrection" and Luke records it as, "now that the dead are raised". This shows that the passage is clearly speaking of what happens in the resurrection. Jesus isn't telling the Sadducees the current stated of people when He says God is the God of the living. He's telling them about the resurrection. Luke also adds the phrase, "for all live unto Him". He's giving things from God's perspective. God holds the power of life and death in His hand. He can raise anyone to life anytime He chooses to. Also, "the living" is a class of people, it's not speaking of the current state. Jesus uses similar language of the dead. He calls people "the dead", who are very much alive.
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Lk. 9:59-60 KJV)
Here Jesus said, "let the dead bury their dead". Here the dead are a class of people, however, they are very much alive if they're going to bury those who are physically dead. So, we see that using "the living" and "the dead" as a class of people doesn't necessitate that they are alive or dead at that very moment.
I don't think these passages prove that people are alive when they are dead given that one was a vision and the other is specifically speaking of the resurrection. Especially given the OT understanding of what a man is and what happens to him at death.
