"Scriptura Suprema": the true doctrine

[Ron Gurley]

"Scripture" trumps RCC's Papal Magisterium and/or Sacred Tradition = the true doctrine of "Scriptura Suprema."

Hebrews 4:12
For the "word of God" is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

The words of God interpret the words of God.

1 Peter 1:23b ... the living and enduring word of God.

Revelation 19:13 ...and His name is called The Word of God.

John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God;
for He gives the Spirit without measure.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God;
for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman
who does not need to be ashamed,
accurately handling the word of truth.

Joshua 23:14b... not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed

Romans 3:4b....let God be found true, though every man be found a liar

Revelation 19:9b... “These are true words of God.”

Revelation 22:6

QUESTION:
If an RCC dogma / doctrine is in direct and irreconcilable conflict with or unsupported by Scripture:
and relies only on Papal Magisterium and/or Sacred Tradition.
WHICH of the 3 should be the SUPREME...the trump...the final authority??

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

People have free will, and do not usually honor Scripture nor God nor hold Scripture nor God higher than tradition.
God lets them do what they choose to do. He knows whats going on, always has known.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It means making Scripture the final court of appeal.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Many religious leaders claim Scripture is the "Authority".....

yet :

John 5:39-40 King James Version (KJV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

 

[Ken Rank]

QUESTION:
If an RCC dogma / doctrine is in direct and irreconcilable conflict with or unsupported by Scripture:
and relies only on Papal Magisterium and/or Sacred Tradition.
WHICH of the 3 should be the SUPREME...the trump...the final authority??

Greetings Ron. I think we don't have to isolate the RCC, as ANY group of ANY kind that enforces a decree upon the people that is in conflict with at least the spirit of Scripture, has to be rejected. This goes for Protestant church bylaws as well. Faith comes by hearing and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD. We can pass decrees within our walls dealing with behavior among one another or something that might benefit the community of believers we are a part of. But when it comes to our daily walk with God, it should be Scripture that defines that, no man made decrees.

 

[GUANO]

"Scripture" trumps RCC's Papal Magisterium and/or Sacred Tradition = the true doctrine of "Scriptura Suprema."

Hebrews 4:12
For the "word of God" is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

The words of God interpret the words of God.

1 Peter 1:23b ... the living and enduring word of God.

Revelation 19:13 ...and His name is called The Word of God.

John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God;
for He gives the Spirit without measure.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God;
for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman
who does not need to be ashamed,
accurately handling the word of truth.

Joshua 23:14b... not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed

Romans 3:4b....let God be found true, though every man be found a liar

Revelation 19:9b... “These are true words of God.”

Revelation 22:6

QUESTION:
If an RCC dogma / doctrine is in direct and irreconcilable conflict with or unsupported by Scripture:
and relies only on Papal Magisterium and/or Sacred Tradition.
WHICH of the 3 should be the SUPREME...the trump...the final authority??

The Bible didn't exist when this was written...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Bible didn't exist when this was written...

The Bible has existed ever since the Tanakh was written, including TORAH.

So what "when this was written" are you referring to ?

 

[Ken Rank]

The Bible didn't exist when this was written...

Yes it did... the Torah, the Prophets, the Psalms and the Writings most certainly existed at that time. The NT wouldn't be compiled for another 120 +/- years, but the Tanach was in every synagogue and folks went and heard it read.

 

[Ron Gurley]

John 3 (NASB)...John the Baptizer on Jesus
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the "words of God"; for He gives (God) the (Holy) Spirit without measure.
35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal (spiritual) life; but he who does not obey the Son (to believe) will not see (eternal spiritual) life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Ron Gurley]

John 5:39-40 (NASB).....Witness of the Scripture
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
39 You (the Jewish leaders) search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life;
it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

41 I do not receive glory from men;
42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Luke 24:44...Post-resurrection Jesus to followers
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you,
that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

 

[GUANO]

Yes it did... the Torah, the Prophets, the Psalms and the Writings most certainly existed at that time. The NT wouldn't be compiled for another 120 +/- years, but the Tanach was in every synagogue and folks went and heard it read.

The Torah, the Prophets, Psalms, etc., are not "The Bible"... Those are books that are _included_ in the Bible. There were also other 'scriptures' that were not included (but I digress). The point is that the Word of God is not a book called the Bible and the "Word of God" mentioned in the chapter of Hebrews that was quoted is not talking about a book. Believing that a book is a deity (Logos) is superstition and idolatry--I'm not saying you believe it is, it just seems to be implied a lot in this thread and throughout CF so I thought I'd point that out.

The Bible has existed ever since the Tanakh was written, including TORAH.

So what "when this was written" are you referring to ?

The Bible is The Bible, the Torah is the Torah, they're not the same book.

The Bible is a book, the Word of God is a spirit. Spirits do not live in books.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Torah, the Prophets, Psalms, etc., are not "The Bible"... Those are books that are _included_ in the Bible. There were also other 'scriptures' that were not included (but I digress). The point is that the Word of God is not a book called the Bible and the "Word of God" mentioned in the chapter of Hebrews that was quoted is not talking about a book. Believing that a book is a deity (Logos) is superstition and idolatry--I'm not saying you believe it is, it just seems to be implied a lot in this thread and throughout CF so I thought I'd point that out.

Look, I don't know you and have to use language that resonates with anyone reading. If people call those collection of books, "the bible," then in order to communicate I will use that term. When speaking of the OT (a very misleading title) I prefer "Tanach" and when speaking about the NT (again, a misleading title) I prefer, "Apostolic Writings." As for extra biblical books, I probably own a copy of them all and agree that some should have been included and if not, at least given more weight. If the "Bible" quotes them, then "them" (whoever that happens to be) must have some weight behind it.

The Bible is The Bible, the Torah is the Torah, they're not the same book. The Bible is a book, the Word of God is a spirit. Spirits do not live in books.

I will disagree only to say that you are missing the idiomatic use of "word" by God. Hebrews 5:12, for example, which has "oracles," is the word logion which shares the root that logos has. It means utterance, words, but whole spoken, it (again) can be idiomatic for something spoken that is written. So God would have uttered (logion) to Moses who then wrote those words down and we have Torah. That's why I think you're nit-picking a little here and there are far bigger fish to fry.

 

[Ron Gurley]

words...Greek 3056...logos....
1.of speech
1.a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
2.what someone has said
1.a word
2.the sayings of God
3.decree, mandate or order
4.of the moral precepts given by God
5.Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6.what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
3.discourse
1.the act of speaking, speech
2.the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3.a kind or style of speaking
4.a continuous speaking discourse - instruction

4.doctrine, teaching

5.anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

6.matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law

7.the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed

2.its use as respect to the MIND alone
1.reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
2.account, i.e. regard, consideration
3.account, i.e. reckoning, score
4.account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
5.relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1.reason would

6.reason, cause, ground

3.In John, (logos) denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ,
the personal wisdom and power in union with God,
his minister in creation and government of the universe,
the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical,
which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead,
and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing
universe.


John 8:47 (NASB)
47 He who is of God hears the "words of God"; for this reason you (Jewish sect leaders) do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

the words Greek [URL='http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4487&t=NASB']4487...rhēma.... [/URL]

1.that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
1.any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
2.speech, discourse
1.what one has said
3.a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)
1.an utterance
2.a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
1.concerning some occurrence
2.subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
1.so far forth as it is a matter of narration
2.so far as it is a matter of command
3.a matter of dispute, case at law