Time From a Physics Standpoint is an Illusion

[RockyMidnight1]

Hello Ohj1n37,

In short I believe how God works from a physics sense is not understandable to humans, at least not to me. I like to think up ideas though.

Yes, There is much more to God's true nature then He is willing to reveal to us, but I think knowledge of this reality is not one of those things, since all such knowledge can only eventually lead back to Him. The reality we see, and all the wonders and mysteries it contains are testament to God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. Why else would he have made us in His image if not to explore and comprehend His Word and all creation? This has to include the very nature of our individual experiences via our thoughts and senses as well as the sciences and many other endeavors of man, providing we do not rely on our own understanding which inherently makes us think we are smarter than He is. Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths." Isaiah 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

This is my point. we can experience directly the attributes of God, like the illusion of time. It follows as well that space, matter and energy are equally illusory, and that in the final analysis, all that is left is God, His Word and Being.

Genesis 1:26-27 - 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

The original Hebrew word for "image" here is Tselem which means meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:--image, vain shew.

 

[Ohj1n37]

The idea of movement includes both space and time.

I disagree. As stated before,

I would say that space and movement are fundamental because they are observable.

Here is my interpretation. Distance, duration, and velocity are measurements only necessary to the math not the actual movement. Distance is the measure of space between two points. Duration is the time (which I believe to be a record of change) in which something occurs. Velocity is a measurement derived from a change in position within space over a period of time; this being caused by movement within space. Again space and movement can be observed. Time can only be observed as change.

To better illustrate my viewpoint, how would one determine how fast someone can run forty yards? First step, measure out forty yards. Second step, get a stopwatch. Third step, have someone run the measured forty yards while the time is kept by said stopwatch. The time statistic comes from the stopwatch's continual measure of change.

Only the measurement of movement requires time. The actual movement of an object requires space.

 

[Ohj1n37]

God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.

I do not know if we can know for sure how this is possible other than through faith for right now.

Why else would he have made us in His image if not to explore and comprehend His Word and all creation?

I pretty much agree with this. I think He made us to make things too, like the technology that we have today.

This is my point. we can experience directly the attributes of God, like the illusion of time. It follows as well that space, matter and energy are equally illusory, and that in the final analysis, all that is left is God, His Word and Being.

That reminds me of a thought I had before, that God was everything. That is how He is everywhere, knows everything, and can do anything. It's just a thought though. I am mainly trying to stick to what can be externally observed in this thread.

 

[RockyMidnight1]

I do not know if we can know for sure how this is possible other than through faith for right now.

That's exactly the point. All that can be IS faith, for no "proof" of God will ever be revealed. Evidence abounds, but proof cannot exist as that would real what God chooses not to reveal. It is "proof" enough that Christ came into this world as an ordinary man and was crucified, buried, and resurrected to pay the wages of sin for any who choose to believe in Him. Imagine that! Salvation unobtainable through our own efforts given freely by believing it. Who needs proof then?

 

[durangodawood]

I disagree. As stated before,

Only the measurement of movement requires time. The actual movement of an object requires space.

How do you account for some things moving fast through space, and other things moving slow. Is that difference just about... nothing?

 

[Ohj1n37]

Salvation unobtainable through our own efforts given freely by believing it. Who needs proof then?

Just something to think about I don't want to get too off topic. I think the key component to faith is trust. God's covenant with Abraham was based on trust. Abraham knew God was real, he talked to Him. It was the act of trusting God to provide a sacrifice in place of Issac that the covenant was made. The same thing with Jesus. All the early Christians knew Jesus and saw Him perform miracles. What defines a Christian is trusting that Jesus is who He says He is, that He is God, and that you trust Him so much that you surrender your life to Him.

How do you account for some things moving fast through space, and other things moving slow. Is that difference just about... nothing?

It depends on how much energy they have.

 

[RealityCheck01]

...Time doesn't separate anything, it is an unnecessary middle man.

That is very wrong. Time and space separates events. Time is necessary in physics. Time is even necessary in everyday life !

Tine dilation is the different measurement of clocks by different observers through either their relative speed or relative gravitational potential.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think I pretty much agree with this. Out of past, present, and future the only one that actually exists is the present. My earthly dad would always tell me the only time to do anything is now.

But you don't perceive the present, everything external that you're aware of is in your past at least 300ms; and since the signals between your neurons take time to propagate, even your thoughts are spread through time; at whichever instant you take to be 'now', nothing is happening in your brain - your thoughts take time, and so does your awareness. Your perceptual systems can also compensate for signal time delays between, for example, slow-moving sound and fast-moving light, so that they are perceived as synchronised (up to a certain distance), by delaying awareness of light signals.

For your conscious awareness, 'now' is a smeared and temporally distorted perception of the past.

 

[Ohj1n37]

That is very wrong. Time and space separates events. Time is necessary in physics. Time is even necessary in everyday life !

Here is my interpretation. Distance, duration, and velocity are measurements only necessary to the math not the actual movement. Distance is the measure of space between two points. Duration is the time (which I believe to be a record of change) in which something occurs. Velocity is a measurement derived from a change in position within space over a period of time; this being caused by movement within space. Again space and movement can be observed. Time can only be observed as change.

To better illustrate my viewpoint, how would one determine how fast someone can run forty yards? First step, measure out forty yards. Second step, get a stopwatch. Third step, have someone run the measured forty yards while the time is kept by said stopwatch. The time statistic comes from the stopwatch's continual measure of change.

Matter moves, movement in turn causes change, and it can stop there. Time is unnecessary. It does exist as a measurement of change though.

Tine dilation is the different measurement of clocks by different observers through either their relative speed or relative gravitational potential.

The slowing of change is relative to the mass that is being affected by the gravitational or accelerative force.

But you don't perceive the present, everything external that you're aware of is in your past at least 300ms; and since the signals between your neurons take time to propagate, even your thoughts are spread through time; at whichever instant you take to be 'now', nothing is happening in your brain - your thoughts take time, and so does your awareness.

Yes, and the concept does not contradict that. There is simply a delay (caused by how the processes you described transfer matter and energy) in how the human body gathers stimuli and the human brain perceives it. All processes you described could also be summarized as matter and movement. There is still no need for time.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... There is simply a delay (caused by how the processes you described transfer matter and energy) in how the human body gathers stimuli and the human brain perceives it. ... There is still no need for time.

You just specified a need - a delay.

Delay - noun. A period of time by which something is late or postponed.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Matter moves...

Look up what move means. At point in time a body is at a position X. At another point in time a body is at point Y. No time = no movement !

Time dilation is clocks actually running slower (not a delay). The atomic clocks on GPS satellites run slower than atomic clocks on the ground and thus are adjusted to allow GPS to work.

 

[Ohj1n37]

Delay - noun. A period of time by which something is late or postponed.

There is simply a delay (caused by how the processes you described transfer matter and energy) in how the human body gathers stimuli and the human brain perceives it.

It is semantics.

The "time" as it concerns to the delay is the measure of the rate of change in the movement of matter and energy via the various processes you described.

Apply the following idea to your example.

To better illustrate my viewpoint, how would one determine how fast someone can run forty yards? First step, measure out forty yards. Second step, get a stopwatch. Third step, have someone run the measured forty yards while the time is kept by said stopwatch. The time statistic comes from the stopwatch's continual measure of change.

Time is unnecessary for the actual movement of matter. Time is a necessary component to measure movement.

No time = no movement !

As stated previously movement is observable, space is observable. Movement and space are fundamental. Time is only observable as change. Matter does not require time to move. It just moves. To measure said movement you do need a record of change which is often referred to as time.

Time dilation is clocks actually running slower (not a delay).

Time dilation is not just the slowing of clocks, but of all matter. This is known.

Time dilation slows change not time. That is what I purpose.

Think about how clocks keep time. They continually "tick" to keep a record of change.

 

[RealityCheck01]

As I wrote:
15 May 2018 Ohj1n37: The simple fact is that without time there cannot be any movement.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Time dilation is not just the slowing of clocks, but of all matter. This is known.

This is what is really known.
Time dilation

According to the theory of relativity, time dilation is a difference in the elapsed time measured by two observers, either due to a velocity difference relative to each other, or by being differently situated relative to a gravitational field. As a result of the nature of spacetime,[2] a clock that is moving relative to an observer will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in the observer's own frame of reference. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock.

That is not quite slowing "of all matter" which implies that you think that their speed changes. It is the slowing of all clocks including natural ones, e.g. heartbeats.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Look up what move means. At point in time a body is at a position X. At another point in time a body is at point Y. No time = no movement !

Time dilation is clocks actually running slower (not a delay). The atomic clocks on GPS satellites run slower than atomic clocks on the ground and thus are adjusted to allow GPS to work.

Neither time nor space are fundamental things; ever since Einstein, we know that what is fundamental is the relationship between events. That relationship is expressed by a number reflecting its distance which can be either mathematically a real number or mathematically an imaginary number. One of those is loosely equivalent to space, the other loosely equivalent to time. Space and time as we have always understood them are reconstructed by these relationship metrics.

Time has an arrow. There are three arrows for time known to physics: Cause vs effect . . . effects always follow causes. Expansion of the universe . . . universe is bigger in the future, smaller in the past. Increase of total entropy in the future.

Quantum Mechanics presents an interesting wrinkle on time. A single cause can have alternate future consequences. For example, a plutonium atom is unstable . . . it might decay today or it might decay tomorrow. Alternate future consequences from one cause, the existence of a plutonium atom.

I experience time as a flow. Which is logically contradictory. How can I describe time as a flow when a flow requires time to occur? That would mean there is a hyper level of time occuring on top of time. Not logical.

Maybe the sensation of passing time is related to the quantum-mechanics choices made by the universe of the one option that is real out of all the alternate possibilities that might have been. Maybe my thinking I have free will is related to alternate quantum options available to my brain. And maybe there's something else going on we just don't know about, yet.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It is semantics.

The "time" as it concerns to the delay is the measure of the rate of change in the movement of matter and energy via the various processes you described.

No; time is just the rate of change; the measure of the rate of change of movement is called acceleration; the rate of change of position is called velocity. Both are functions of time.

Time dilation is not just the slowing of clocks, but of all matter.

No; time dilation is relative to some observer, so an observer's local time never slows. The idea of all matter slowing is meaningless, there would be no reference for comparison.

But, for the rest, you're right, it's just a matter of semantics - you don't want to use the word 'time' in the generally accepted way.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am not not sure if I understand what your trying to say, but what I am trying to say to my understanding is not subjective. I am not sure how I can make it anymore clear, so I'll just reiterate in a slightly different way.

Matter moves, movement in turn causes change, and it can stop there. Time is unnecessary. It does exist as a measurement of change though.

I think there are maybe two types of time. One is physical, the other experiential. We know of experiential time, because we are discussing it as a part of our reality. From the perspective of the purely physical analysis, it may not exist, but IMO that leads to the conclusion that the physical theory of time we are discussing is incomplete. Not that the subjective flow of events is an illusion to be annihilated by the latest theoretical 'discovery'.

The beauty analogy was this: just like the subjective flow of events likewise beauty cant be known to physics, but beauty still exists as a reality to us, as does the living present where we experience time from an existential perspective. So, physics is an incomplete description of affairs.

"We would be in a nasty position indeed if empirical science were the only kind of science possible." Edmund Husserl (phenomenologist, i.e. a scientist of experience).

 

[Ohj1n37]

As I wrote:
15 May 2018 Ohj1n37: The simple fact is that without time there cannot be any movement.

Time is not needed for the actual movement of matter, but just the measurement.

This is what is really known.
Time dilation

Yes thank you, I have read that.

That is not quite slowing "of all matter" which implies that you think that their speed changes. It is the slowing of all clocks including natural ones, e.g. heartbeats.

The "dilating" of time causes the matter that is being affected by the gravitational or accelerative force to change more slowly relative to any other matter that is being affected by a lesser degree of gravitational or accelerative force.

Neither time nor space are fundamental things; ever since Einstein, we know that what is fundamental is the relationship between events.

I can observe space; I can observe movement. I believe others may be able to do so as well. Are you questioning this observation? If so could you explain why these observations may not true? By fundamental I mean that I can assume both space and movement are real because I can observe them.

I experience time as a flow. Which is logically contradictory. How can I describe time as a flow when a flow requires time to occur?

I believe the experience of the flow of time is an illusion. My explanation is below.

Matter moves, this movement causes change, and we humans perceive this change as the passage of time.

I think RockyMidnight1 did a good job explaining this illusion, as stated below. Keep in mind it doesn't matter if there is "delay" in "when" one experiences awareness. I recommend rereading what I have posted if it is still unclear.

There is only one "time" anything is real, and it is "now". Everything you have ever experienced, everything you have ever imagined is only real in this present instant of awareness.

No; time is just the rate of change; the measure of the rate of change of movement is called acceleration; the rate of change of position is called velocity.

Here is my interpretation. Distance, duration, and velocity are measurements only necessary to the math not the actual movement. Distance is the measure of space between two points. Duration is the time (which I believe to be a record of change) in which something occurs. Velocity is a measurement derived from a change in position within space over a period of time; this being caused by movement within space.

Delay - noun. A period of time by which something is late or postponed.

Be sure to think on the bold text below.

There is simply a delay (caused by how the processes you described transfer matter and energy) in how the human body gathers stimuli and the human brain perceives it.

Matter does not require time to move. It just moves. To measure said movement you do need a record of change which is often referred to as time.

The period of time described in the delay in the context of your brain awareness example is caused by the transfer of matter and energy through the various processes the human body uses to perceive its surroundings. The actual processes have nothing to do with time, but everything to do with matter moving in space.

No; time dilation is relative to some observer, so an observer's local time never slows.

The slowing of change is relative to the mass that is being affected by the gravitational or accelerative force.

In my quote above by mass I mean some form matter or some object.

The change of the matter being affected by the gravitational or accelerative force will be slowed. When it comes to the actual matter, time is irrelevant, it is the change of said matter that is the focus.

If the observer's change is also being affected by the same gravitational or accelerative force of what they are observing then the observer's change will be the same relative to what they are observing. This means the observer will observe no difference.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In my quote above by mass I mean some form matter or some object.

My comment was in respect of your statement: "Time dilation is not just the slowing of clocks, but of all matter." which, as it stands, is clearly false. Time dilation is always relative to some observer.

 

[Ohj1n37]

My comment was in respect of your statement: "Time dilation is not just the slowing of clocks, but of all matter." which, as it stands, is clearly false. Time dilation is always relative to some observer.

I am aware that time dilation is relative, but you have taken my comment out of context. I was addressing the statement below.

Time dilation is clocks actually running slower (not a delay).

My answer was that time dilation does not just affect clocks, but all matter.