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Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

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inquiring mind

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Ok... Uh... Before there were modern humans, there were 'pre-humans' with names like Homo erectus, who likely cared for their infants much the same way we do.

Non-human Primates demonstrate all manner of infant care. Even non-primate mammals care for their young to some extent.

It is not as if offspring care arose from nothing with the first humans.

We are not all that special when it comes to basic survival traits and behaviors.
I did have a hard time clarifying my question, so I kinda gave up on it (may still have to). I know how evolution is generally supposed to work so you don't have to give me a lecture on it, but I just have difficulty seeing, even in gradual increments (because at some point something would have to become more human-like than animal-like), how something would survive beyond that point. I know, the answer is it would happen very slowly. It's just hard for me to see an animal transitioning into a human-like form, even very slowly, and at some point having the more animal-like (however little difference there is) raise a more human-like successfully.
 
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Snappy1

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I did have a hard time clarifying my question, so I kinda gave up on it (may still have to). I know how evolution is generally supposed to work so you don't have to give me a lecture on it, but I just have difficulty seeing, even in gradual increments (because at some point something would have to become more human-like than animal-like), how something would survive beyond that point. I know, the answer is it would happen very slowly. It's just hard for me to see an animal transitioning into a human-like form, even very slowly, and at some point having the more animal-like (however little difference there is) raise a more human-like successfully.
That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
 
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Snappy1

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Well, that slammed the door on that.
No "animal like" creature ever gave birth to a "human like" baby, and no one is claiming that happened. That would violate everything we know about biology.
 
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inquiring mind

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No "animal like" creature ever gave birth to a "human like" baby, and no one is claiming that happened. That would violate everything we know about biology.
You realize a lot of Creationists are going to agree with that statement.
 
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PsychoSarah

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first: its possible that the internal morphology of the rabbit is different, but you cant tell since we are talking about a fossil.
-_- you say that as if fossils show nothing about internal structures... the ones commonly depicted as BONES say nothing about internal structures? Really? Even if bones didn't reveal a lot about physiology, positions and shapes of organs can also be preserved in them.

Also, not once in the history of ever has convergent evolution resulted in identical bone structure.


secondly: what about 300 my rabbit? in this case it will not be a problem since it will have a similar modern environment?
-_- what rabbits eat didn't exist, and the environment of 300 million years ago was NOT similar to modern day or even the environment rabbits evolved in about 56 million years ago. The Carboniferous period had such a uniform environment that trees from that era don't have distinct rings, meaning that seasons were fairly indistinguishable from each other. Thanks to the highest oxygen content in the atmosphere in the history of the planet (over 30%), fires broke out with extreme frequency.

-_- why did you think the Carboniferous period had a similar environment to modern day? Also, ever heard of hyperoxia? Yeah, this environment actually has too much oxygen.


in the past: several different methods for checking the age of the earth gaves similar (wrong) result.
Examples and dates for the attempts, as well as the method used. Carbon dating should NEVER be used on anything expected to be older than 30 thousand years, because that dating method doesn't work on items that old.

so even if several different methods give a similar age it doesnt mean that its correct.
-_- radioactive dating methods were not refined until the 1950s. Your examples better not predate that.


yes there are. here is one example with the alx3 gene:

Gene-family-tree-of-vertebrate-Alx-homeobox-genes-in-chordate-evolution-After-the-two.png



(image from https://www.researchgate.net/figure...hordate-evolution-After-the-two_fig2_51478159)
Those are not identical genes shared by separate lineages; you can clearly see in this family tree that these all share common ancestry from whence these ALX genes originate.

Independent means that the genes arise in those lineages individually, meaning it forms more than once. That's not what this depicts.
 
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Speedwell

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You realize a lot of Creationists are going to agree with that statement.

Good. At least it would demonstrate that they know something about evolution.
 
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pitabread

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you also made a claim: that all creatures cant evolve in about 100-200 my. so can you show how to prove your point?

Biological evolution is a process whereby the output (i.e. living species) are a result of the conditions under which the process occurs. You are claiming that we can alter the conditions, in this case dramatically, yet still get an identical output.

It's like claiming that since you can stand outside in clear, sunny weather and not get wet, you should also be able to stand outside in a rainstorm and also not get wet. Surely you can see the problem with that logic.

Thus you need to demonstrate how such a thing is possible. No shifting the burden of proof, no one-liner responses... actually take the time to explain how such a thing could happen.
 
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inquiring mind

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Biological evolution is a process whereby the output (i.e. living species) are a result of the conditions under which the process occurs.
Seems like determining the exact conditions would be a major weakness in biological evolution. If that was incorrect, a lot of things based on it might be incorrect. I can't speak to how accurately conditions have been concluded from scientific studies, but if a team of scientists could go back in time to different epochs, wonder what the chances would be of them returning and saying, "yep, our conclusions were right about all the conditions."
 
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tas8831

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They must have seen it differently.

Creationists usually do.
They all had PhDs, so I listened... intently.

And how is it, exactly, that you were able to assess the veracity of what they claimed?

Creationists with PhDs get shot down all the time, caught in distortions and lies, etc. They make it easy.

I read creationist articles on subjects I am familiar with and it is painfully easy to spot their shenanigans.
 
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xianghua

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-_- you say that as if fossils show nothing about internal structures... the ones commonly depicted as BONES say nothing about internal structures? Really? Even if bones didn't reveal a lot about physiology, positions and shapes of organs can also be preserved in them.

Also, not once in the history of ever has convergent evolution resulted in identical bone structure.



-_- what rabbits eat didn't exist, and the environment of 300 million years ago was NOT similar to modern day or even the environment rabbits evolved in about 56 million years ago. The Carboniferous period had such a uniform environment that trees from that era don't have distinct rings, meaning that seasons were fairly indistinguishable from each other. Thanks to the highest oxygen content in the atmosphere in the history of the planet (over 30%), fires broke out with extreme frequency.

-_- why did you think the Carboniferous period had a similar environment to modern day? Also, ever heard of hyperoxia? Yeah, this environment actually has too much oxygen.



Examples and dates for the attempts, as well as the method used. Carbon dating should NEVER be used on anything expected to be older than 30 thousand years, because that dating method doesn't work on items that old.


-_- radioactive dating methods were not refined until the 1950s. Your examples better not predate that.



Those are not identical genes shared by separate lineages; you can clearly see in this family tree that these all share common ancestry from whence these ALX genes originate.

Independent means that the genes arise in those lineages individually, meaning it forms more than once. That's not what this depicts.
again: too many topics at once. i want to focus. first about the rabbit: im sure that evolutionists can make any explanation under the evolution theory to explain how this suppose ancient rabbit exist even in a different environment. even today we can see many similar creatures in a different environment, so evolution can explain it by adaptation.

about the alx3 gene: is just an ad hoc explanation. we can claim that this gene actually created by the designer in different lineages. why the evolutionery claim is better then creationist one in this case?
 
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xianghua

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Biological evolution is a process whereby the output (i.e. living species) are a result of the conditions under which the process occurs. You are claiming that we can alter the conditions, in this case dramatically, yet still get an identical output.

It's like claiming that since you can stand outside in clear, sunny weather and not get wet, you should also be able to stand outside in a rainstorm and also not get wet. Surely you can see the problem with that logic.

Thus you need to demonstrate how such a thing is possible. No shifting the burden of proof, no one-liner responses... actually take the time to explain how such a thing could happen.
according to evolution many species evolved during the cambrian. so lets assume we are talking only about 200 different families for the sake of the argument ("kind" by creationists meaning). and of course that we can explain another 300-400 families without any real problem. after all: if its possible to get 200 different families why it will be impossible to get 600 or 700?
 
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PsychoSarah

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again: too many topics at once. i want to focus. first about the rabbit: im sure that evolutionists can make any explanation under the evolution theory to explain how this suppose ancient rabbit exist even in a different environment.
A claim you have made repeatedly and have never been able to provide any evidence for whatsoever. To be extremely blunt, how the heck could anyone explain the presence of an oxygen breathing organism in a rock layer that predates oxygen being a major component of the Earth's atmosphere?

You've never once been able to give an example of any scientific authority dismissing legitimate evidence against evolution, especially not any that would disprove evolution outright. Real evidence, by the way, not faked fossils or biased experimental results. Furthermore, you've never presented any evidence that would disprove evolution. Where's your Precambrian rabbit? How can you assert and complain that evidence for your position would be dismissed when you don't have any evidence to begin with? You don't have anything to complain about.

even today we can see many similar creatures in a different environment, so evolution can explain it by adaptation.
Every time you use the word "similar", I want you to remember that similar is not the same, and that your point is likely to be invalid. In fact, any post you make after this one, I'm going to bold the word "similar" and just have that as my response, because I am tired of reminding you that similar and identical are not the same thing and that your claims do not apply similar yet different organisms/genes. Similar organisms exist because similar environments can simultaneously exist in different parts of the world, thus different species can occupy the same niche in these separate environments. No organisms which develop via convergent evolution are identical to each other. Identical, not similar, identical.

about the alx3 gene: is just an ad hoc explanation. we can claim that this gene actually created by the designer in different lineages. why the evolutionery claim is better then creationist one in this case?
-_- because there isn't evidence for any creator, and no practical purpose to organisms on this planet being as genetically similar to each other as they are. Basically, there isn't any evidence for intelligent design, and any claimed evidence thus far has either been faked or is entirely indistinguishable from the evidence for evolution, meaning that the "intelligent design" interpretation is a matter of opinion and not based on the evidence in and of itself.

In any case, you claimed that this was a depiction of at least 1 gene developing in independent lineages, yet this diagram shows no indication of that. I advise you not to use sources that disagree with your claims. It should be EASY to present to me organisms which independently developed identical genes without shared ancestry being a plausible explanation if it happens so frequently that it's a problem for determining relatedness. After all, shared lineage wasn't considered to be a valid explanation for some of the similarities between the bat and whale sequences, right? All you have to do is find something like that, but in which 100+ base pairs in a row are identical. Until you can do that, your claims are entirely empty. I'm not even asking for an entire gene necessarily, just 100+ identical base pairs that couldn't feasibly be inherited by a common ancestor. The more distant the lineages, the better.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Just to clarify, I don't care why you don't want to use proper terminology given the context of the discussion. My only point is that it leads to unnecessary misunderstanding, something which you have been complaining endlessly about. I figured that of anyone here, you'd be the most eager to avoid perpetuating such misunderstandings.


Proper terminology causes misunderstandings?

And where is that come from anyway? I though we were on scientific method?

Makes no difference at all to me if you care or not..if your proper terminology or scientific method or wherever you are at now is unreasonable, I'm not going to go with it, that simple. IOW if it's unreasonable it's ok, as long as it helps with the misunderstandings? You have GOT to be kidding.

Now are you ever going to get around to what I posted re: the scientific method or do you want to spend some more time pontificating about the finer points of trying to have a discussion on the Internet?

I think I already commented on that. I'm here to take a look at it now, assuming you posted it.

Were you going to prove evolution? You've about run out of stalls and you'll no longer have the advantage of stalling while waiting for me to look your scientific method over shortly.

Also, I get the idea from your tone, you think I'm afraid to look it over, like you've put something in front of me I can't handle? Why?

OK, I actually broke my rule and quickly read the link, but same ol' answer as before, prove evolution, and stick with your scientific method if you like, and if I have a problem with something, whether it be scientific method or something else, I'll let you know.

That was pretty anti climatic, lol. The way you were acting, wasn't sure what I'd find at the link.
 
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pitabread

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according to evolution many species evolved during the cambrian. so lets assume we are talking only about 200 different families for the sake of the argument ("kind" by creationists meaning). and of course that we can explain another 300-400 families without any real problem. after all: if its possible to get 200 different families why it will be impossible to get 600 or 700?

I think we need to take several steps back here because you're getting completely away from what I was originally talking about.

What I was originally referring to was the entire history of life on Earth (i.e. all 4 billion+ years of it) appearing at the very beginning of Earth's history with no evidence of any sort of evolutionary progression whatsoever. In a nutshell, that is what I would expect if life was magically created at the beginning of Earth's history. Again, we're talking about all of Earth's existing life including past-and-present lifeforms.

Referring to the Cambrian explosion doesn't really help you here. For starters, the Cambrian explosion occurred after life had already existed (and evolved!) for ~3.5 billion years prior. And this included examples of multi-cellular organisms that had evolved before the Cambrian. In fact, this has led to a lot of debate of how much of an "explosion" the Cambrian really was.

Yes, it is possible for life to diversify rapidly. But that's not the same thing as taking the entire 4+ billion year history of life on Earth and squishing it does to appearing at the beginning of Earth's history.

And there are no examples of diverse, multi-cellular biological life appearing at the very beginning of Earth's 4+ billion year history with no precursors.
 
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pitabread

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Makes no difference at all to me if you care or not..if your proper terminology or scientific method or wherever you are at now is unreasonable, I'm not going to go with it, that simple.

Then there is no chance of having a reasonable discussion. You don't get to reinvent the meaning of words (in a given context) because you don't like the definition.

So forget trying to discuss science; we need to start with a remedial lesson on how words work.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Then there is no chance of having a reasonable discussion. You don't get to reinvent the meaning of words (in a given context) because you don't like the definition.

So forget trying to discuss science; we need to start with a remedial lesson on how words work.

Reinvent words? Do I get to protest when an argument is unreasonable, no? If I recall correctly that is all I asked for...yet seriously? you are actually going to pretend words was the problem, when you know perfectly well it was not? It was anything unreasonable. Do you really think you are going to convince anyone here of that little deception when it's all here in black and white for them to read?

What you're really saying is "Due to our way of doing things, I can't lose" and turns out the "trap" I mentioned, the one you said didn't exist, is right there where I thought it would be. "Agree with us and evolution is correct, or don't agree with the way "WE" say things should be done and you are being unreasonable. Can anyone else smell the rat in that?

You do realize you are saying I'm not allowed to disagree, right, and you really don't see the problem with that? Here ya' go, try this:

How bout you just believe in creation, and don't argue with how we draw our conclusions, and just trust us/our way of doing things as that's the way it's done, and if you do not, you're being unreasonable, and you need to "forget about studying" creation. See?

Complete waste of time with the same ol' thing we both saw coming a mile away, a cop out, because you have zero proof of evolution. Nothing new here, just "Listen to our spin, because I guess we can't prove it after all."
 
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VirOptimus

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Reinvent words? Do I get to protest when an argument is unreasonable, no? If I recall correctly that is all I asked for...yet seriously? you are actually going to pretend words was the problem, when you know perfectly well it was not? It was anything unreasonable. Do you really think you are going to convince anyone here of that little deception when it's all here in black and white for them to read?

What you're really saying is "Due to our way of doing things, I can't lose" and turns out the "trap" I mentioned, the one you said didn't exist, is right there where I thought it would be. "Agree with us and evolution is correct, or don't agree with the way "WE" say things should be done and you are being unreasonable. Can anyone else smell the rat in that?

You do realize you are saying I'm not allowed to disagree, right, and you really don't see the problem with that? Here ya' go, try this:

How bout you just believe in creation, and don't argue with how we draw our conclusions, and just trust us/our way of doing things as that's the way it's done, and if you do not, you're being unreasonable, and you need to "forget about studying" creation. See?

Complete waste of time with the same ol' thing we both saw coming a mile away, a cop out, because you have zero proof of evolution. Nothing new here, just "Listen to our spin, because I guess we can't prove it after all."

The ToE is incredibly well-supported by data and evidence.

Creation-supported by nothing.

That is the reality of it.
 
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Jimmy D

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a cop out, because you have zero proof of evolution.

There's no cop out mate, there's nothing to prove - would you spend hours trying to convince a flat Earther that the world is a globe?

Creationists are in their own little bubble - only reading creationist literature, watching their youtube videos and convincing themselves they're correct, while the rest of the world carry on regardless.

If you've got a better explanation for the diversity of life on Earth let's hear it, otherwise pipe down, no one has to prove anything to you.
 
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