Problems with Sacred Tradition

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Roman Catholics, and to some extent Eastern Orthodox, reject Sola Scriptura because they believe that the Word of God is infallibly conveyed not in Scripture alone, but in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Father George Tavard, Catholic theologian, says that Sacred Tradition is: "inseparable from the Bible itself. Both are to be read together. They stand or fall together."

But what exactly is meant by "Sacred Tradition"? It appears difficult to define. The Council of Trent defined it like this:

"[the Gospel is] the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct. [This council] clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were by hand... [This council receives the books of Scripture and] also morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession."
According to these words, Sacred Tradition is the collection of "saving truths" to believe and "rules of conduct" to live by which were taught by Christ, received and taught by the apostles, and passed on to the bishops in every age of the church, but were not written down.

Sacred Tradition also appears to include how the church fathers traditionally interpreted Scripture. Trent again:

"[No individual should] presume to interpret [the Scriptures] in accordance with his own conceptions...contrary to the sense which holy mother Church, to whom it belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation, has held and holds, or even contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers..."
Sacred Tradition is, then, also the way that the Catholic Church has tended to interpret the Bible. Tavard summarizes Trent's view on the relationship between Tradition and Scripture like this:

"Scripture contains all revealed doctrine, and the Church's faith which includes apostolic traditions, interprets it."​

R.A.F. Mackenzie, Catholic theologian, furthermore adds that Sacred Tradition includes the present application of Scripture and church teaching to new questions faced by the church. He says of Scripture alone:

"...a written record is a dead letter, needing constant interpretation and commentary in succeeding ages. It cannot of itself answer new questions, or explain what was once clear and has now become obscure. The writings transmitted in a living community, from one generation to another, are accompanied by a continuous tradition of understanding and explanation...which applies them...to the solving of new problems."
So altogether, we can say that Sacred Tradition is a collection of teachings concerning things we should believe and do which were taught by Jesus Christ but not written down, how the church has historically interpreted Scripture, the doctrinal statements of the church which come from her councils, and how the Bible is currently interpreted by the church to answer new questions and solve new problems.

What are the problems with the concept of Sacred Tradition? There are several:
  1. Apart from the authoritative writings of the apostles, we cannot be sure that a teaching came from Christ or the apostles because men are fallible.

  2. Just because an interpretation of Scripture enjoys a long tradition and antiquity does not make this interpretation correct. If it can be shown, from Scripture itself, that a traditional interpretation is wrong then it should be rejected.

  3. The Magisterium of the Catholic church has often taught doctrines which are not substantiated by Scripture. Therefore the claim that Catholic Tradition and Scripture are always perfectly unified is false. Many Catholic doctrines go well beyond Scripture and some even flatly contradict Scripture. If "tradition" were nothing more than the accurate interpretation of Scripture then we should accept tradition as the Word of God. But Catholic Tradition often goes beyond Scripture.

  4. This makes the rulings, interpretations, and doctrinal statements of the church irrevocable. We cannot change Scripture because it is the word of God. But if the church made a wrong judgment at a particular time in history, the church of later generations should have the freedom to recognize this erroneous judgment and to correct it. There's no reason why this cannot be part of the Holy Spirit guiding the church into all truth.

  5. This very process was occurring in Jesus' own day with the traditions of the Pharisees and scribes. Pharisaical teaching surrounding Scripture and ultimately came to obscure and go beyond Scripture. Jesus contradicted the Pharisees, condemned this practice, and sought to go back to Scripture itself.

  6. This really just amounts to saying that Catholic Doctrine is infallible. Since the concept of Sacred Tradition was not really developed until the Council of Trent, it is obvious that this was a move from the Roman Church to respond to the Reformation. Any doctrinal statements or interpretations of any church are always subject to the Word of God and open to question. If it can be demonstrated that such a judgment does not concord with God's Word then it should be rejected.
 
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Holy Tradition is much more than a collection of teachings and practices. These are only those things that naturally express Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is Mystical Life in Communion with God in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit illumines the Word, Who reveals the Father. Church teachings and practices enable entrance into the Life in Communion with God, and that very Life itself affirms the Truth of all those teachings and practices which are the outward expressions of the Truth revealed by God to all of those who know God by the Holy Spirit.

So what is the problem?
 
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Tree of Life

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Holy Tradition is much more than a collection of teachings and practices. These are only those things that naturally express Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is Mystical Life in Communion with God in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit illumines the Word, Who reveals the Father. Church teachings and practices enable entrance into the Life in Communion with God, and that very Life itself affirms the Truth of all those teachings and practices which are the outward expressions of the Truth revealed by God to all of those who know God by the Holy Spirit.

So what is the problem?

Well one problem here is that this does not appear to be how your church authorities define it. And also this definition is so nebulous that I'm left totally unsure as to what qualifies as Tradition and what does not. This is important because "Tradition" is an infallible guide of faith and practice. If what counts as "Tradition" is unclear then this is a recipe for disaster.
 
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The Bible came from man, man didn't come from the Bible. Also, who do you think the biggest proponent of Sacred Tradition was? It was Jesus and His gospels.

Actually the Bible came from God. He authored it through human authors.

Could you demonstrate from Scripture that Jesus was a proponent of "Sacred Tradition" as your church defines it?
 
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com7fy8

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Our Apostle Paul says,

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

So, he says there are "traditions" which they were taught . . . by "epistle", but also "by word". So, I have to consider that there could be traditions which were not written in "epistle", but they were taught "by word".

But, of course, this does not automatically guarantee that traditions of any group have to be right!

And I keep noticing how certain things of scripture have a way of not getting emphasized, while things of much lesser benefit can be pushed and given attention on and on and again and again.

For example > our Apostle Paul says, in an epistle >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16)

To me, this is clear how if we stop our arguing and complaining, then right "in the midst of" this evil world's "crooked and perverse generation" we can "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault". And if God commands this, I have to consider that He knows it is realistic of God to expect all of His children to do this. Because God in us has us succeed in all He means by His word > Isaiah 55:11 > the grace of God's love in us changes our nature so that we stop our anti-love things like arguing and complaining, and this love also makes us "blameless and harmless, children of God without fault" the way this love is in us > 1 John 4:17.

So, I would think this would be a very important tradition which Christian people will emphasize, since this is included in how we can "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > no procrastinating until after we die!

And with this is Hebrews 12:4-11 which guarantees how our Father corrects His children so we share with Him in His holiness and we have His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". This means in this life; so I would understand that it is a tradition of the Christian church that we actively seek our Heavenly Father for this correction of His love's perfection (1 John 4:17).

So, if a group claims to have Biblical traditions, I am looking and listening to find out if they emphasize traditions like these which are right in the Bible and guarantee how we will become if we live in God's love.
 
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Well one problem here is that this does not appear to be how your church authorities define it. And also this definition is so nebulous that I'm left totally unsure as to what qualifies as Tradition and what does not. This is important because "Tradition" is an infallible guide of faith and practice. If what counts as "Tradition" is unclear then this is a recipe for disaster.
It's only unclear to those who are outside of it. Those Living within the Holy Tradition by the Holy Spirit simply know the Truth, because God reveals Himself to them. And the definition I offered is indeed how it is explained by the saints of the Church, Who are blessed to know and to Love God by the Holy Spirit.

If you will remember from your New Testament readings, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that, to many, the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven are incomprehensible, so that when He spoke they wouldn't understand: "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest, it is in parables, so that, 'Seeing, they may not see; and hearing, they may not understand." (Luke 8:10)

It is just like that when a saint to whom is "has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God" says that Holy Tradition is all the Truth that flows out of the Lives of all of the saints who have participated in the Life of the Holy Trinity. It's not abstractly concrete enough. It's more like a parable that eludes solid understanding and surefire cognitive powers. They walk away thinking the saint a fool and go back to good ole safe haven of "papal supremacy/infallibility" or else "sola Scriptura".

But Holy Tradition is just as the saints say it is: it is active participation in the mystical Life of the Holy Trinity, and all of the outward expressions and practices flowing out of it and back into it, like the breathing of God.
 
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It's only unclear to those who are outside of it. Those Living within the Holy Tradition by the Holy Spirit simply know the Truth, because God reveals Himself to them. And the definition I offered is indeed how it is explained by the saints of the Church, Who are blessed to know and to Love God by the Holy Spirit.

If you will remember from your New Testament readings, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that, to many, the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven are incomprehensible, so that when He spoke they wouldn't understand: "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest, it is in parables, so that, 'Seeing, they may not see; and hearing, they may not understand." (Luke 8:10)

It is just like that when a saint to whom is "has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God" says that Holy Tradition is all the Truth that flows out of the Lives of all of the saints who have participated in the Life of the Holy Trinity. It's not abstractly concrete enough. It's more like a parable that eludes solid understanding and surefire cognitive powers. They walk away thinking the saint a fool and go back to good ole safe haven of "papal supremacy/infallibility" or else "sola Scriptura".

But Holy Tradition is just as the saints say it is: it is active participation in the mystical Life of the Holy Trinity, and all of the outward expressions and practices flowing out of it and back into it, like the breathing of God.

Sounds mystical.
 
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Phil 1:21

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The Bible came from man, man didn't come from the Bible.
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Why do some denominations seek to take credit for the Lord's work?
 
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Sounds mystical.
I know, as is the Kingdom of God, and to some it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God (Luke 8:10), others may receive them later in their own time, and some perhaps never.

(Matthew 7:7-8)
 
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Sounds mystical.
I know, as is the Kingdom of God, and to some it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God (Luke 8:10), others may receive them later in their own time, and some perhaps never.

(Matthew 7:7-8)
 
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I know, as is the Kingdom of God, and to some it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God (Luke 8:10), others may receive them later in their own time, and some perhaps never.

(Matthew 7:7-8)

You do know that Jesus went on to explain the meaning of the parables to the disciples, right? The mysteries of the kingdom are not so mystical that they cannot be articulated.
 
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But Holy Tradition is just as the saints say it is: it is active participation in the mystical Life of the Holy Trinity, and all of the outward expressions and practices flowing out of it and back into it, like the breathing of God.
We have been discussing Holy Tradition in contrast to Sola Scriptura. In other words, as each defines essential doctrine for the people of God. How does Holy Tradition do that, as you understand it?
 
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Tree of Life

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Also, the word "mystical" is very difficult. "Sacred Tradition" is already very difficult to define. But when we define it by saying that it is "mystical" then I think we forget what language is for. Language is supposed to impart knowledge and understanding. It's supposed to clarify and instruct.

Here's how the Etymological Dictionary defines "mystical":

late 15c., "enigmatic, obscure, symbolic," from mystic + -al (1). Related: Mystically. Meaning "having spiritual significance" is from 1520s.

Is this what you mean when you use the word? What do you mean by "mystical"?
 
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We have been discussing Holy Tradition in contrast to Sola Scriptura. In other words, as each defines essential doctrine for the people of God. How does Holy Tradition do that, as you understand it?
Holy Tradition contains the grace of God within it, just as the Holy Scriptures do. By Living the Holy Tradition and obeying God's will revealed in Scripture, the Holy Spirit work and the Word work within you, enabling the glory and Love of God to become known insofar as you can bear it. For us, there is no separating of Holy Tradition from Holy Scripture. They belong together, and we must have both.
 
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We have been discussing Holy Tradition in contrast to Sola Scriptura. In other words, as each defines essential doctrine for the people of God. How does Holy Tradition do that, as you understand it?
Holy Tradition contains the grace of God within it, just as the Holy Scriptures do. By Living the Holy Tradition and obeying God's will revealed in Scripture, the Holy Spirit work and the Word work within you, enabling the glory and Love of God to become known insofar as you can bear it. For us, there is no separating of Holy Tradition from Holy Scripture. They belong together, and we must have both.
You do know that Jesus went on to explain the meaning of the parables to the disciples, right? The mysteries of the kingdom are not so mystical that they cannot be articulated.
I've articulated them.
 
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Holy Tradition contains the grace of God within it, just as the Holy Scriptures do. By Living the Holy Tradition and obeying God's will revealed in Scripture, the Holy Spirit work and the Word work within you, enabling the glory and Love of God to become known insofar as you can bear it. For us, there is no separating of Holy Tradition from Holy Scripture. They belong together, and we must have both.

And let's not forget about Flerdin Blourbain. Flerdin Blourbain works together with Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture and contains the grace of God within it as well. Flerdin Blourbain and Holy Scripture are inseparable and one cannot stand without the other.
 
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