Tribulation and more...

Christian_Follower

http://seekingbiblicaltruth.weebly.com
Mar 13, 2018
105
110
South Louisiana
✟21,641.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation (Greek: θλίψις μεγάλη, thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come? If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dale

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟738,052.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.

The church will go through the Tribulation, but I am not sure if every believer will suffer, the reason I say this is it is not a requirement (to my knowledge) to suffer to enter eternal life. David, Moses, Joseph all did not suffer but are in heaven. But those who do suffer will receive a greater resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation (Greek: θλίψις μεγάλη, thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come?
The Great Tribulation is designated to be a short duration in length approximately 3 1/2 years and it is Great in it's intensity level of testing trials of the people of earth focused on the eastern hemisphere but will effect the world all over -

The purpose is God has sent Jesus to provide eternal life to those who believe on Christ - Many have and many have not - God is closing the chapter on the events of mankind and preparing the new chapter of His saints that will have eternal life with Him In His presence eternally
Great Tribulation is Gods design to send a false messiah to deceive those who hate and reject Him so that they follow the false messiah , Gods Holy Word is to inform us -mankind that we have a choice to make either to receive Jesus or be left out of the eternal life with a Holy God
If people receive Jesus before this Trial begins they have then passed the testing regarding this Trial - depending how long a person has lived on this earth can affect what other types of tribulation they have experienced
simple question
If you have children you love so much that you are willing to die in their place so they could live and you find them playing in traffic on a major Interstate highway with cars going 80MPH , would you rescue them from the danger ?
Or would you let them get hit by the cars in traffic?
Many times Gods Word tells us to Stand Still and let God handle the situation -
you will see various views - But God NEVER says that he will cause those that love him Now to go through the time designed for those who reject Him
There will be some people who receive Jesus as savoir after the GT has begun and they will have to find shelter because they waited too long to Believe , but can still be saved if they have the strength to endure the most severe time of testing that mankind will ever have
 
Upvote 0

Christian_Follower

http://seekingbiblicaltruth.weebly.com
Mar 13, 2018
105
110
South Louisiana
✟21,641.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Okay, the child issue seems to be a good argument for many, but lets re-examine itbu

If there is a pretrib rapture in which all believers and children are removed as most teach thus also must mean for 7 yrs there will be no children born, but of course most pretribers say not necessarily, so if God is loving enough to spare children with a pretrib rapture then He us evil to place children in the midsts of it after the fact

does that make sense?
 
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟73,477.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Christian_Follower

http://seekingbiblicaltruth.weebly.com
Mar 13, 2018
105
110
South Louisiana
✟21,641.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry to inform people in the West, but tribulation is coming to our shores, and it will be more intense the people hating you for reading your bible and praying, it will come about that Christianity will be the most hated people group in the world because they believe in One Way, Jesus is the Savior, God will judge sin and so on
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Oldmantook
Upvote 0

Christian_Follower

http://seekingbiblicaltruth.weebly.com
Mar 13, 2018
105
110
South Louisiana
✟21,641.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually I think the word "great" refers to the length of time, not the intensity of the tribulation. .
No great literally means more intense as the Scriptures state... Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟806,867.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The majority of Matthew 24 is Christ's literal description of events that would occur in the period leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. These are confirmed both scripturally and historically, as seen below.

Those who have read of the tribulation that followed in that generation recognize that it was not surpassed before, nor has been since, in depravity, savagery, and suffering.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟806,867.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The wars and rumours of wars times are not the great tribulation. it says ----be ye not troubled

The people for that time would all come to pass and still the beginning of sorrows part would not be nigh.
sorrows - trouble
True; the wars and rumors of wars were not themselves the tribulation. But they were a confirmation of the approach of that tribulation, as Christ had predicted.
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

First, I want to make a statement against Preterism.

Christ told Israel very clearly that, "behold your house is left unto you desolate." Despite popular ideas about Israel's judgment, Israel didn't fall in AD 70, but the minute Christ died on the cross. The minute that darkness covered the land. The Temple veil rent from top to bottom as a sign that the shadows or types of the land, Priest, and temple were completed. The physical Temple was no longer the Holy place, the veil within no longer separating men from God, as Christ the true Temple and veil now replaced it. Israel had been judged, blinded, and left with no prophet and no vision, or even no "probationary period." That Jerusalem had been judged, their city burned, and their kingdom given to another. Not in AD 70, but the time of Christ's death and resurrection. Likewise, in verse 27, prior to Second Coming, when the new testament congregation is judged, it is the representation of Jerusalem. It is the beloved city that Revelation 20 says Satan attacks when he is loosed. It's not a plot of dirt in the middle east, it's the New Testament congregation. And speaking of this time when they are to flee and not come down from the housetops, etc, God continues..

Matthew 24:21
  • "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Was there great tribulation in AD 70 greater tribulation than at any other time period, or greater than any period since, or that ever will be? Of Course Not!!! I don't care what the man Josephus claimed. The whole idea would require such gymnastics as to be spiritually twisted. Moreover..

Matthew 24:29-31
  • "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  • And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
There is NO possibility of erroneously intermingling these prophesies, For God first said the tribulation was in the days of fleeing to the mountains, and "THEN" seals these truths by declaring unambiguously that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation "of those days" there is seen the sign of Christ's return. Selah! Well preterist doctrines are wrong.

Now, what is a "great tribulation?"

The Church has had tribulation from it's inception as we, Saints, always had tribulation. But when Satan is loosed AFTER the building of the New Testament congregation is FINISHED, there will be greater tribulation, Iniquity will INCREASE, there will be greater abominations, so much that the Church will be left spiritually desolate. As the congregation, Israel of old was by it's abominations in verse 26. The abominations which the congregation did not recognize!. There is nothing new under the sun.

Please read the context:

Matthew 24:21-25
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.

Christ is clear that the great tribulation is when there is more false prophets and christs out there in the church that deceive, even the Elect if it is possible. For example, we have Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Joseph Prince, Steven Furtick, Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, etc. etc. It is a great tribulation FOR THE ELECT, not the world. It is not a period of blood bath that premillennialists are screaming about. It is a spiritual war within the New Testament congregation where Satan can overcome the testimony of God's people with his own lies!

What do you see out there in church all over the world? Are they faithfully representing God's kingdom where they tolerate homosexuality and transgenderism, allowing women as pastors, physical healing ministries, speaking in tongues, "Your Best Life Now" Gospel, Etc. etc. These are the "abominations" that lead many churches to desolate where God has warned His people (those who have been sealed of God) to escape to avoid being deceived like the rest! THIS is the great tribulation period, but unfortunately, there are far too many professed Christians who are blind thinking that most prophecies are all about a plot of land and about a nation called "Israel" thinking they will be raptured out before terrible 7 years of trail.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟806,867.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
First, I want to make a statement against Preterism.

Christ told Israel very clearly that, "behold your house is left unto you desolate." Despite popular ideas about Israel's judgment, Israel didn't fall in AD 70, but the minute Christ died on the cross. The minute that darkness covered the land. The Temple veil rent from top to bottom as a sign that the shadows or types of the land, Priest, and temple were completed. The physical Temple was no longer the Holy place, the veil within no longer separating men from God, as Christ the true Temple and veil now replaced it. Israel had been judged, blinded, and left with no prophet and no vision, or even no "probationary period." That Jerusalem had been judged, their city burned, and their kingdom given to another. Not in AD 70, but the time of Christ's death and resurrection. Likewise, in verse 27, prior to Second Coming, when the new testament congregation is judged, it is the representation of Jerusalem. It is the beloved city that Revelation 20 says Satan attacks when he is loosed. It's not a plot of dirt in the middle east, it's the New Testament congregation. And speaking of this time when they are to flee and not come down from the housetops, etc, God continues..

Matthew 24:21
  • "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Was there great tribulation in AD 70 greater tribulation than at any other time period, or greater than any period since, or that ever will be? Of Course Not!!! I don't care what the man Josephus claimed. The whole idea would require such gymnastics as to be spiritually twisted. Moreover..

Matthew 24:29-31
  • "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  • And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
There is NO possibility of erroneously intermingling these prophesies, For God first said the tribulation was in the days of fleeing to the mountains, and "THEN" seals these truths by declaring unambiguously that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation "of those days" there is seen the sign of Christ's return. Selah! Well preterist doctrines are wrong.

Now, what is a "great tribulation?"

The Church has had tribulation from it's inception as we, Saints, always had tribulation. But when Satan is loosed AFTER the building of the New Testament congregation is FINISHED, there will be greater tribulation, Iniquity will INCREASE, there will be greater abominations, so much that the Church will be left spiritually desolate. As the congregation, Israel of old was by it's abominations in verse 26. The abominations which the congregation did not recognize!. There is nothing new under the sun.

Please read the context:

Matthew 24:21-25
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.

Christ is clear that the great tribulation is when there is more false prophets and christs out there in the church that deceive, even the Elect if it is possible. For example, we have Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Joseph Prince, Steven Furtick, Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, etc. etc. It is a great tribulation FOR THE ELECT, not the world. It is not a period of blood bath that premillennialists are screaming about. It is a spiritual war within the New Testament congregation where Satan can overcome the testimony of God's people with his own lies!

What do you see out there in church all over the world? Are they faithfully representing God's kingdom where they tolerate homosexuality and transgenderism, allowing women as pastors, physical healing ministries, speaking in tongues, "Your Best Life Now" Gospel, Etc. etc. These are the "abominations" that lead many churches to desolate where God has warned His people (those who have been sealed of God) to escape to avoid being deceived like the rest! THIS is the great tribulation period, but unfortunately, there are far too many professed Christians who are blind thinking that most prophecies are all about a plot of land and about a nation called "Israel" thinking they will be raptured out before terrible 7 years of trail.

Love ya bro, but gotta disagree here. There is such an overwhelming number of scripturally and historically verifiable literal fulfillments of Christ's predictions that they cannot be dismissed. Far from detracting from the veracity of Scripture, they confirm, support, and strengthen it.

I always seek spiritual fulfillments first, but also recognize the legitimacy of literal fulfillments when they are undeniable. I see such undeniability in Matthew 24.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Times
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The wars and rumours of wars times are not the great tribulation. it says ----be ye not troubled

Well, see, the tribulation is FOR the Saints. Not the World.

Matthew 24:3-8
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The Great Tribulation FOR THE ELECTS IN THE CONGREGATION started with the wars, the famines, the pestilences, and earthquakes in different places are only the beginning of sorrows. Allow me to explain a little more...

Revelation 11:7-8
[7] And when they [two witnesses] shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Two Witnesses signifies True Church (not two human men as most believe) who receive power (Holy Spirit) to bring Gospel to the world for 1,260 symbolic days which covered most of the New Testament period UNTIL all Elect God intends to be sealed has been sealed, THEN the pit is opened and Satan will be loosened.

And Satan's goal is to silence the testimony of the Two Witnesses. How? By waging war, bringing famine and disease where earthquake. But these are NOT to be understood as physical events as many people believe.

See... it is the end of their testimony FOR salvation. And with testimony being silenced, it is a time for judgment upon unfaithful congregation where no one being sealed/saved at this appointed time. The killing (silence) of Two Witnesses' testimony TAKES TIME, mirroring Israel!

Again, the believers of the New Testament are represented as the chosen, the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Jews, the holy nation, the people of the kingdom of Christ. And the unbelievers are represented spiritually as the reprobates, the nation of the Gentiles, the kingdom of Satan. This is one Holy Nation and Kingdom against the unholy nation and Kingdom of Satan! This is teh war spoken of in the preceding verse, not war between literal nation Israel or Jews. Spiritual war and the rumors of wars between spiritual people, nations, and kingdom WITHIN God's congregation for the control of the church which Satan wanted! How do they fight in spiritual wars? With the WORD that comes out of our mouths! True Gospel v.s. False Gospel! The more false gospel overcome the turth gospel in the church, it will invite spiritual famine which symbolically to signify a family (lack of) hearing the word of God! Not literal/physical foods from 7-11 stores!

Amos 8:11-12
  • "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
  • And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it."
Now the Pestilence is symbolic of spiritual sickness or disease that as a plague comes upon spiritual Egypt come from God. Egypt, that nation that held the children of God in bondage. As we see in Revelation where God is pouring out these spiritual plagues upon the earth. He's not making the world physically sick or deseased, but in Loosing Satan he allows the unfaithful of the church to becomes spiritually sick. Remember, Christ came as the Physician (Matthew 9:12; Mark 2:17) illustrating to heal sin, our spiritual sickness.

Revelation 15:8
  • "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."/li]
Revelation 16:9
  • "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."
Revelation 18:4
  • "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
Revelation 18:8
  • "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."
What about earthquakes? Well it symbolize the shaking of the Lord upon the earth, HIS JUDGMENTS upon the world.

Isaiah 24:19-21
  • "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
  • The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
  • And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth."
Haggai 2:21-22
  • "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
  • And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother."
Verse seven is an illustration of the shaking in the judgment of the Lord upon His Kingdoms. Famine and Plagues, these are symbolisms of the end time events which precede the second Advent of Christ.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Times
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Love ya bro, but gotta disagree here. There is such an overwhelming number of scripturally and historically verifiable literal fulfillments of Christ's predictions that they cannot be dismissed. Far from detracting from the veracity of Scripture, they confirm, support, and strengthen it.

I always seek spiritual fulfillments first, but also recognize the legitimacy of literal fulfillments when they are undeniable. I see such undeniability in Matthew 24.

Except for one important and authoritative truth, which is that neither Christ nor the prophets of old ever spoke of two fulfillments of the words as to occur once at Calvary and then another time over 30 years later. Once again, we have the authoritative and infallible words of the Scriptures illustrating its fulfillment, and the unauthoritative words and assumptions of Josephus, and his followers. This also ties into this modern day error of looking for the same literal/physical Temple and city to be restored again, rebuilt as if Christ's words of it never being His kingdom again should become null and void. The same error of attempting to read physical destruction as trying to read physical rebuilding into a prophecy that speaks of only a Spiritual destruction and rebuilding. ..with Christ the chief cornerstone of that rebuilding. In other words, if (and that's a big if) you are going to claim the prophecy was of a very literal/physical destruction, then to be Biblically consistent you must also claim the prophecy of the rebuilding of the ruins must also be taken as literal/physical, else you have confusion. And God is not the author of confusion, man is. But then, was the rebuilding not in Christ over 2000 years ago? It's inconsistent because it's not true.

"Inconsistency is the hallmark of error." -WiseManSay
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The church will be here till the 7th trumpet sounds.
She will be waiting for the time of Rev. 14 when - Jesus Christ will come wearing one crown.
He will have a sickle for harvest and reap the earth.

Later - He will return with His saints for the time at the end of Rev. 19, but He will wear many crowns and not carry a sickle.

So is Rev 7 just the result of Rev 14, meaning is the gathering of Rev 14 the great multitude of Rev 7. It has to be because the church is not appointed to wrath.
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The church will be here till the 7th trumpet sounds.

Correct.

She will be waiting for the time of Rev. 14 when - Jesus Christ will come wearing one crown.

Jesus Christ already received crown when He has established His kingdom at the Cross, going forth conquering and to conquer through the Church until the End.

Revelation 6:2
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 14 is a picture of all Saints from old and new testament congregation, which the 144,000 symbols. They are men redeemed from the earth.

Later - He will return with His saints for the time at the end of Rev. 19, but He will wear many crowns and not carry a sickle.

Revelation 19:11-14
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and
on his head were many crowns;
and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Yes, it is Jesus Christ upon White Horse (same white horse back in Revelation 6). He has many crowns? Where did He get that from? From His Saints!

Revelation 4:10-11
[10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
[11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The 24 elders represent the Elect. They are "elders" IN CHRIST for they have a wisdom of Christ. They cast their crowns to their King. That is Christ's crowns signifies being King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And He will bring the armies of His Saints from old and new testament with Him at Second Coming (include those who are alive and remains to meet with them in the air) who clothed in fine linen and white and clean because their sins have been removed!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Times
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
So is Rev 7 just the result of Rev 14, meaning is the gathering of Rev 14 the great multitude of Rev 7. It has to be because the church is not appointed to wrath.

The number 144,000 is the only symbol that John heard that represents the actual great multitude that He saw. They are one and the same, the church made up of both old and new testament Saints.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Times
Upvote 0