Against Sola Scriptura...

[dreadnought]

Yea there is the passage in Corinthians where he says, me not the Lord, something about how people wear their hair.

And the thing he said about women not speaking in church.

 

[dreadnought]

I am hoping you are not thinking we are gods equal to God that God is calling us god as if we really are. That would make him a liar.

I don't think of myself as a god.

 

[dreadnought]

Why?

Because it goes counter to what Jesus said about loving your neighbor as yourself.

 

[GingerBeer]

The Bible is a collection of infallible Holy Spirit inspired books (plural).

Is the statement above suggesting that the Holy Spirit did not know the table of contents of the scriptures before they were written? Really?

 

[redleghunter]

With scripture nobody would know it was 'scripture' without the 'curators' who documented its pedigree and preserved it over the centuries. There's no need to waste time on art. You could try to make a case from scripture's history of preservation directly. Tell me who preserved it and when and how they documented its pedigree.

You cannot tell by hearing and reading Scriptures its divine qualities, supernatural message and divine authority?

Jesus said His sheep hear His Voice and follow Him.

There was no break in the community of believers the ekklesia. They knew the apostles penned the NT and knew they walked with Christ.

 

[W2L]

It's about more than that. It's about this: Is the Word of God the things God and Jesus are quoted as saying in the Bible, or is it the entire Bible?

His sheep know His voice and follow Him.

 

[dreadnought]

His sheep know His voice and follow Him.

Yes, they follow him - not Paul.

 

[GingerBeer]

If you are looking for an inspired table of contents you won't find one.

That is not what I am looking for. I did not wrote the definition given in the original post. I do not subscribe to sola scriptura.

 

[GingerBeer]

You cannot tell by hearing and reading Scriptures its divine qualities, supernatural message and divine authority?

Can you? What supernatural gift do you have that enables you to tell just by hearing (a translation) read aloud? I know that your post is slipping further and further from this thread's topic but I think it is interesting that your appear to be claiming something close to supernatural discernment as a persona gift that enables you to know what is and what is not inspired scripture.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Can you? What supernatural gift do you have that enables you to tell just by hearing (a translation) read aloud? I know that your post is slipping further and further from this thread's topic but I think it is interesting that your appear to be claiming something close to supernatural discernment as a persona gift that enables you to know what is and what is not inspired scripture.

I believe you are correct.

As a Catholic, the part about that which blows my hair back is that non-Catholics reject my Church's authority... while essentially (and often explicitly) claiming for themselves the same authority which my Church claims regarding her teaching authority.

Their viewpoint, as best I understand it, seems to be that the Holy Spirit will guide them but He won't guide multiple people. Or maybe he won't guide groups of people. Or maybe it's just that He won't guide my Church.

 

[W2L]

Yes, they follow him - not Paul.

Paul teaches how to follow the Lord. His wisdom is given to us so we can grow into spiritual adults instead of infants in Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

Is the statement above suggesting that the Holy Spirit did not know the table of contents of the scriptures before they were written? Really?

Not at all suggested.

 

[dreadnought]

Paul teaches how to follow the Lord. His wisdom is given to us so we can grow into spiritual adults instead of infants in Christ.

Yes, he was a great man.

 

[GingerBeer]

I believe you are correct.

As a Catholic, the part about that which blows my hair back is that non-Catholics reject my Church's authority... while essentially (and often explicitly) claiming for themselves the same authority which my Church claims regarding her teaching authority.

Their viewpoint, as best I understand it, seems to be that the Holy Spirit will guide them but He won't guide multiple people. Or maybe he won't guide groups of people. Or maybe it's just that He won't guide my Church.

You make a good point.

 

[W2L]

Yes, he was a great man.

He was a servant.

 

[redleghunter]

Can you? What supernatural gift do you have that enables you to tell just by hearing (a translation) read aloud? I know that your post is slipping further and further from this thread's topic but I think it is interesting that your appear to be claiming something close to supernatural discernment as a persona gift that enables you to know what is and what is not inspired scripture.

Where do we gain discernment? From man?

The only slipping from the OP is you are promoting Sola Eccelsia. That we can't know teachings from God but need a self assured infallible body of humans to tell us what truth is.

If in fact that is your position then you nuke the NT church which started by following an itinerant Rabbi in opposition to the then sitting Jewish magisterium.

 

[GingerBeer]

Not at all suggested.

That's a relief. The idea that the Holy Spirit knew the contents and the table of contents of the scriptures before they were written is elementary theology. And that being so if the Spirit intended the holy scriptures to be "self authenticating" and "self interpreting" (both of which are concomitants of sola scriptura) then why isn't there a Spirit inspired table of contents in the text of scripture? We all appear to agree that there is no such list of inspired books in the bible (no matter which bible canon you happen to subscribe to). Since there is no list of inspired books that is itself inspired it follows with unassailable inevitability that the list of inspired books that you subscribe to is a tradition of men or your own personal 'revelation' from God. The former is true the latter lies in the realm of self deluded modern day 'prophets'.

 

[redleghunter]

I believe you are correct.

As a Catholic, the part about that which blows my hair back is that non-Catholics reject my Church's authority... while essentially (and often explicitly) claiming for themselves the same authority which my Church claims regarding her teaching authority.

Their viewpoint, as best I understand it, seems to be that the Holy Spirit will guide them but He won't guide multiple people. Or maybe he won't guide groups of people. Or maybe it's just that He won't guide my Church.

That would be a misunderstanding.

The issue is if one can determine the divine and truth by examining the very teachings of Christ and His apostles. The answer is actually given in the NT....a resounding yes. As the church started following an itinerant Rabbi in opposition to the then sitting magisterium and often rebuked said magisterium by teaching from the Law, Prophets and Writings.

The Sanhedrin was indeed in the seat of Moses (Jewish magisterium) yet they strayed from the teachings of God in their own Hebrew Scriptures. We all know the rest of the story.

It is not a matter of having no seat of ecclesiastical authority but one which considers itself as a self assured infallible body.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

It's about more than that. It's about this: Is the Word of God the things God and Jesus are quoted as saying in the Bible, or is it the entire Bible?

entire bible

2 timothy 3:15-17
2 peter 1:20-21
Hebrews 1:1-2
ephesians 3:1-5

 

[GingerBeer]

Where do we gain discernment? From man?

Godly people gain discernment from wisdom. It is said that wisdom comes from God. It is not said that an individual who claim to have discernment has wisdom that is as authoritative as scripture. So returning to the thread's topic and ending this brief diversion into 'discernment' we can all see that scripture nowhere ever claims to present a canon for scripture that is as exhaustive and detailed as a table of contents or as exhaustive as a canon list from the early church councils or from reformers like Martin Luther or John Calvin or the Westminster Divines. The early church councils, Luther, Calvin, and the Westminster divines are all human beings and their opinions are traditions that people either accept or reject. It appears that the original post was written with the assumption that the Westminster divines' tradition is the one to follow. But it is a man made tradition. We even know the names of the men who made it. And why they made it and what sources they used to make it.