Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

[Tetra]

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

 

[thecolorsblend]

I'm starting to think the temperance movement will haunt Christianity until the end of time. It's like it doesn't matter how illogical, long refuted or simply idiotic their arguments are, they keep coming back. The saying goes that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Whoever coined that phrase needs a raise or something.

Anyway. Our Lord made wine. The wine was alcohol. The alcohol was capable of getting people drunk if they had too much of it. I'll never understand why this is a bothersome idea to people but it seems to be.

So here we are.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

The wine was most certainly alcoholic.

 

[Tetra]

I'm starting to think the temperance movement will haunt Christianity until the end of time. It's like it doesn't matter how illogical, long refuted or simply idiotic their arguments are, they keep coming back. The saying goes that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Whoever coined that phrase needs a raise or something.

Anyway. Our Lord made wine. The wine was alcohol. The alcohol was capable of getting people drunk if they had too much of it. I'll never understand why this is a bothersome idea to people but it seems to be.

So here we are.

I'm really curious exploring why people are bothered about this though. Why would people think that it even matters???

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

I'm really curious exploring why people are bothered about this though. Why would people think that it even matters???

Because alcohol causes drunkenness, which is a social problem IMO.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

I'm really curious exploring why people are bothered about this though. Why would people think that it even matters???

And the wine in the Bible could've been much tamer than what we usually drink today.

 

[Tetra]

Because alcohol causes drunkenness, which is a social problem IMO.

Alcohol CAUSES drunkenness? Wouldn't that be similar to saying food causes gluttony?

I think it's more, alcohol can cause drunkenness. Obviously one can drink wine without getting drunk.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Alcohol CAUSES drunkenness? Wouldn't that be similar to saying food causes gluttony?

I think it's more, alcohol can cause drunkenness. Obviously one can drink wine without getting drunk.

Consumption of excess alcohol, I mean. LOL

 

[thecolorsblend]

I'm really curious exploring why people are bothered about this though. Why would people think that it even matters???

There are (obviously) people out there who seem to think that alcohol of any kind is the worst thing in the history of the world. In fairness to them, addiction is a real thing and alcoholism is a terrible burden for those who have to live with it.

Having said that, there's a world of difference between opening a bottle of red to enjoy with your rare steak and consuming Wild Turkey for the express purpose of getting drunk and the temperance movement is determined to obscure little details like that.

In any case, there's no logical argument to the idea that Our Lord and His apostles weren't at least open to the idea of consuming alcohol. But a prima facie reading of the New Testament indicates that they probably did imbibe. They're not wicked and evil for having imbibed.

It's ridiculous that this such a touchy issue, frankly.

 

[Tetra]

There are (obviously) people out there who seem to think that alcohol of any kind is the worst thing in the history of the world. In fairness to them, addiction is a real thing and alcoholism is a terrible burden for those who have to live with it.

Having said that, there's a world of difference between opening a bottle of red to enjoy with your rare steak and consuming Wild Turkey for the express purpose of getting drunk and the temperance movement is determined to obscure little details like that.

In any case, there's no logical argument to the idea that Our Lord and His apostles weren't at least open to the idea of consuming alcohol. But a prima facie reading of the New Testament indicates that they probably did imbibe. They're not wicked and evil for having imbibed.

It's ridiculous that this such a touchy issue, frankly.

I've yet to discover how "touchy" this issue is, I typically have debates regarding other touchy issues.

A person would have to be following the logic:
1) Whatever can cause sin is sinful
2) Alcohol can cause sin
3) Therefore, alcohol is sinful

Obviously the initial premise makes no sense.

 

[Willie T]

It was not only alcoholic, but He made WAY more than they needed... as much as 908 bottles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’ve thought about this a few times and something that I think makes sense is they didn’t have refrigerators so they couldn’t keep fruit juices very long without spoiling so perhaps wine was more popular because it last for long periods without spoiling and their water probably wasn’t the best tasting water.

 

[☦Marius☦]

The NT talks about the good wine and the cheap, and how the wedding guests would be served the cheap wine last (because they would be too drunk to notice). Christ makes the wine after the patrons had run out of the cheap wine, meaning the guests were probably already fairly drunk.

Being drunk and drunkenness are two different things.

Being drunk is completely fine as long as it doesn't lead to immorality. I drink all the time but I do so privately. It lifts my spirits after a hard day's work, and can make reading scripture more tolerable after a hard day.

Drunkenness is when a person keeps a state of drinking and is not in control of their actions during that time.

St. John Chrysostom a church father had something to say on this:

From Homilies on the Statues 1,7:

Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm.

But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels!




To say that the drinking of wine is evil is to say that the wine Christ drank in the holy supper was an evil act.

Making wine was the way that ancient cultures preserved fruit after the harvest. By the time of Passover grape juice would have already begun to ferment, but they likely would have used the previous harvest's.

 

[JackRT]

In biblical times wine was normally fermented to the maximum of about 16%. At that concentration the alcohol actually kills the yeast. Biblically this was called strong drink. However the wine was usually cut with water to bring down the alcohol content to 5% to 8%. Grape juice would only be available a few weeks a year during and just following harvest season. Beyond that time the wild yeasts would already be turning the juice into wine. Distillation of alcohol was not known until about the twelfth century. Among the common people the consumption of weak beer was actually more common than wine which was often reserved for special occasions.

 

[Kenny'sID]

There are (obviously) people out there who seem to think that alcohol of any kind is the worst thing in the history of the world. In fairness to them, addiction is a real thing and alcoholism is a terrible burden for those who have to live with it.

That's the whole deal on why people see it in the unrealistic way they do. They seem to create a delusion about it that simply isn't true, bless their hearts, and all because of the terrible trouble the people around them have/cause, when they use it.

To me there is no doubt wine is allowed by God and there is no doubt Jesus made alcohol, nor is there any doubt people that abuse it can cause others to delude themselves out of what I assume is necessity to them.

Some handle things better than others and are able to face reality better, some, not as much, so they blame the wine, then choose to believe it wrong for Christians when the Bible is clear it is not.

So, it's all understandable and there are worse things than mistakenly thinking wine in itself is bad.

 

[Grip Docility]

It was not only alcoholic, but He made WAY more than they needed... as much as 908 bottles.

Jesus is AWESOME!!!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Jesus is AWESOME!!!

And quite talented.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's funny, it was the miracle that was supposed to be the point, yet we turned it into something else altogether.

 

[Rubiks]

God commanded the Israelites to drink wine during the Passover meal. While Jesus could have created non-alcoholic wine (grape juice hadn't been invented yet) I see no reason to think that has to be the case.

 

[Kenny'sID]

God commanded the Israelites to drink wine during the Passover meal. While Jesus could have created non-alcoholic wine (grape juice hadn't been invented yet) I see no reason to think that has to be the case.

Was that the one where he recommended they bring wine and/or strong drink?