Does God's foreknowledge rule out free will?

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Easy there Friend... no need to get so aggressive toward me.

I'm just asking for the sake of trying to foster some critical thinking on the thread topic.. I find it a fascinating one.

How do you believe God Absolves Himself of the responsibility for choosing to create someone He knows in advance will reject Him?

This is His party after all..

You asked:


Is God Wrong? No. God Can do what He wants, again, it's His party.

I'm simpy wondering aloud why He would prefer to Punish people with excruciating, eternal torment for acting is the exact way He kew they would act before He Chose to create them, instead of simply Choosing not to create them in the first place... there must be some reward or ROI He is getting from Choosing to Create a world full of People He knows He's going to Condemn.

What do you think it is?

Why do you think God Didn't want to create only people He knew would Choose Him? It would still be their free choice, right?

What if He didn't choose to create them, but allowed them to be created? Did God force the two people to have sex or did they choose to?

And God did create Lucifer who He eventually kicked out of heaven and who will be in hell and the lake of fire.

 

[parousia70]

What if He didn't choose to create them, but allowed them to be created? Did God force the two people to have sex or did they choose to?

Did he not form you in the Womb?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Jeremiah 1:5a “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;

That hardly sounds as "passive" as you would lead us to believe.

And God did create Lucifer who He eventually kicked out of heaven and who will be in hell and the lake of fire.

Yep. Apparently God chose to Create a being, Lucifer, who He knew would do just that BEFORE God chose to Create Him. Yet God made a free choice to Create Him anyway, apaprently for that very purpose, no?...

Are you saying God couldnt help BUT create Lucifer?

 

[Sabertooth]

Deliberate vs. incidental conception has a potential to derail this thread.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

IS GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE COMPATIBLE WITH FREE WILL?

Have I missed something, you seem to have put everything in quote marks, but not cited a source for your quote, so who is saying it?

Anyway the problem is not there for Open Theism or Neo-Molinism which both in some way take the future out of what can be known. Further this is compatible with God's character: He is known as all-wise, but wisdom is not a matter of legalistic answers to every situation (that is what knowledge is) but knowing the best answer to a problem. A God who knows everything about the future cannot be wise because no wisdom is required.

A God who knows the future is also powerless to change that future without showing that they don't know something...

This means that any attempt to understand God's knowledge of the future will either make god impotent or foolish unless the future is 'open' in some way. Open Theism says that there is no future to know, whereas Neo-Molinism says that all the potential futures can be known... but not which one will actually be realised.

Both of these views solve the problem and far from being held by a minority, are actually growing substantially. I go to an entire church that follows the Open Theistic model of God. While individuals in the church might not understand the point, the leadership certainly does.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Knowing what you will choose out of your free will is not the same as making you choose what you will ultimately choose.

So the answer is no. There is no conflict between God's foreknowledge and the traditional (libertarian) concept of free will.

Actually I think there is.

Let us suppose that I am going to sin. God foreknows this... but I cannot therefore choose to do anything else... in fact I am now powerless to stop myself from sinning because God always knew I was going to sin. So I have the illusion of choosing to sin (free will, but it is an illusion because I cannot actually choose to do anything else without showing God's foreknowledge to be deficient.

Worse God cannot do anything about my sin, because he too cannot change that future that he foreknew.

So any kind of solid foreknowledge thus shows that there is no free will and that God is not omnipotent.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Actually I think there is.

Let us suppose that I am going to sin. God foreknows this... but I cannot therefore choose to do anything else... in fact I am now powerless to stop myself from sinning because God always knew I was going to sin. So I have the illusion of choosing to sin (free will, but it is an illusion because I cannot actually choose to do anything else without showing God's foreknowledge to be deficient.

Worse God cannot do anything about my sin, because he too cannot change that future that he foreknew.

So any kind of solid foreknowledge thus shows that there is no free will and that God is not omnipotent.

I think you are confusing yourself. Foreknowledge of a future choice is not equal to a demand that you make that choice, it is simply foreknowledge of the choice you are going to make before you make it. Just because God knows what you are going to do doesn't mean God makes you do it.

It is also fallacy to say that God is not omnipotent, because He has foreknowledge. Maybe He has a reason why He doesn't stop the things He doesn't. And, why can't God manage the consequences without managing the choices and thereby achieve the promised outcome while letting everyone make their own individual choices?

 

[ToBeLoved]

"One of the biggest problems facing the traditional Christian believer is to explain how human beings can have free will given that God has perfect knowledge of the future. If God already knows what you are going to do tomorrow, then how can the decisions you make be free? It seems the only thing you can possibly do is what God already knows you are going to do – and if so, then you cannot have what philosophers call libertarian free will, the kind of freedom that most Christians, and in fact most people, believe human beings possess."

"Not all Christians face this dilemma. Calvinists avoid it by rejecting the traditional (libertarian) concept of free will, while so-called “open theists” reject the idea that God knows everything about the future. But for those in between these two extremes – which is the majority of believers – the problem remains."

"...But now here's the problem: if God cannot be wrong, then it is impossible for there to be alternatives to what he knows you are going to have. In other words, it's not merely that God knows that you are in fact going to have spaghetti, while other possibilities remain. Rather, since it is impossible for God to be wrong, it is also impossible for you to have anything else. Because for there to be another possibility is for there to be the possibility of God making a mistake."

"Another way of putting this is that, if you have free will, then you have the power to make God wrong – and that of course cannot be. God's foreknowledge – his perfect, infallible foreknowledge – is therefore incompatible with the kind of freedom that most Christians believe we have."

IS GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE COMPATIBLE WITH FREE WILL?

If God gives us the free-will to choose and He does not affect the outcome, then how can His foreknowing what we will do, change what happens?

There is no conflict.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Actually I think there is.

Let us suppose that I am going to sin. God foreknows this... but I cannot therefore choose to do anything else... in fact I am now powerless to stop myself from sinning because God always knew I was going to sin. So I have the illusion of choosing to sin (free will, but it is an illusion because I cannot actually choose to do anything else without showing God's foreknowledge to be deficient.

Worse God cannot do anything about my sin, because he too cannot change that future that he foreknew.

So any kind of solid foreknowledge thus shows that there is no free will and that God is not omnipotent.

Sounds like you want to blame God for your decisions.

God can do anything He wants to do, but because He chooses not to and to let you have free will that negates your free will?

That makes no sense.

If my one year old child jumps into a 5 foot deep pool, I know they cannot swim and will drown. Just because I know they will drown, doesn't mean that that child did not use their own free will and their own body and legs to jump into that pool, even if they had no idea of the danger.

God does not take away our legs so we cannot jump. But God is Holy and knows that if we jump that He has sent a Savior who is able to save us.

That doesn't remove our responsibility for jumping into the pool (or sinning in your example).

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think you are confusing yourself. Foreknowledge of a future choice is not equal to a demand that you make that choice, it is simply foreknowledge of the choice you are going to make before you make it. Just because God knows what you are going to do doesn't mean God makes you do it.

It is also fallacy to say that God is not omnipotent, because He has foreknowledge. Maybe He has a reason why He doesn't stop the things He doesn't. And, why can't God manage the consequences without managing the choices and thereby achieve the promised outcome while letting everyone make their own individual choices?

That's right!

That's what free will is. Our right to freely choose and exercise our own will.

 

[salt-n-light]

"One of the biggest problems facing the traditional Christian believer is to explain how human beings can have free will given that God has perfect knowledge of the future. If God already knows what you are going to do tomorrow, then how can the decisions you make be free? It seems the only thing you can possibly do is what God already knows you are going to do – and if so, then you cannot have what philosophers call libertarian free will, the kind of freedom that most Christians, and in fact most people, believe human beings possess."

"Not all Christians face this dilemma. Calvinists avoid it by rejecting the traditional (libertarian) concept of free will, while so-called “open theists” reject the idea that God knows everything about the future. But for those in between these two extremes – which is the majority of believers – the problem remains."

"...But now here's the problem: if God cannot be wrong, then it is impossible for there to be alternatives to what he knows you are going to have. In other words, it's not merely that God knows that you are in fact going to have spaghetti, while other possibilities remain. Rather, since it is impossible for God to be wrong, it is also impossible for you to have anything else. Because for there to be another possibility is for there to be the possibility of God making a mistake."

"Another way of putting this is that, if you have free will, then you have the power to make God wrong – and that of course cannot be. God's foreknowledge – his perfect, infallible foreknowledge – is therefore incompatible with the kind of freedom that most Christians believe we have."

IS GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE COMPATIBLE WITH FREE WILL?

Take it this way, I foreknow that if my kid touch that stove they will be burn. I know that the kid have inclinations to touch it. I warn them knowing that the desire for them to disobey is there, but they still have the free will to pursue the desire or adhere to my warning.

There comes a point where the kid keeps going after the stove that I stop warning them. But they still have the free will to stop and say sorry as long as they are alive. But who knows, it might have cost them a hand they can't get back.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Easy there Friend... no need to get so aggressive toward me.

I'm just asking for the sake of trying to foster some critical thinking on the thread topic.. I find it a fascinating one.

How do you believe God Absolves Himself of the responsibility for choosing to create someone He knows in advance will reject Him?

This is His party after all..

You asked:


Is God Wrong? No. God Can do what He wants, again, it's His party.

I'm simpy wondering aloud why He would prefer to Punish people with excruciating, eternal torment for acting is the exact way He kew they would act before He Chose to create them, instead of simply Choosing not to create them in the first place... there must be some reward or ROI He is getting from Choosing to Create a world full of People He knows He's going to Condemn.

What do you think it is?

Why do you think God Didn't want to create only people He knew would Choose Him? It would still be their free choice, right?

There is nothing wrong with God choosing to let His creation decide if they will love Him or decide if they will not love Him.

That's the perogative of a God who creates.

Just because you do not think God is fair, doesn't mean that God is not fair.

Take responsibility for your choices.

 

[joshua 1 9]

God well not make our choice for us, we have to make our own choices in life. WE can choose life or death, sickness or health, blessing or curse, poverty or prosperity. At time the right choice is the difficult way to go. Proverbs 24:33 "A little sleep, a little slumber, A little folding of the hands to rest," 34 Then your poverty will come as a robber And your want like an armed man."

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yep. Apparently God chose to Create a being, Lucifer, who He knew would do just that BEFORE God chose to Create Him. Yet God made a free choice to Create Him anyway, apaprently for that very purpose, no?...

Are you saying God couldnt help BUT create Lucifer?

When God created Lucifer, He was perfect like Adam and Eve were.

Only after Lucifer let his heart grow envious and filled with sin, did he try to overthrow God to be God Himself.

So no. Lucifer was not created to rebel against God. Just like Adam was not created in sin.

 

[Grip Docility]

"One of the biggest problems facing the traditional Christian believer is to explain how human beings can have free will given that God has perfect knowledge of the future. If God already knows what you are going to do tomorrow, then how can the decisions you make be free? It seems the only thing you can possibly do is what God already knows you are going to do – and if so, then you cannot have what philosophers call libertarian free will, the kind of freedom that most Christians, and in fact most people, believe human beings possess."

"Not all Christians face this dilemma. Calvinists avoid it by rejecting the traditional (libertarian) concept of free will, while so-called “open theists” reject the idea that God knows everything about the future. But for those in between these two extremes – which is the majority of believers – the problem remains."

"...But now here's the problem: if God cannot be wrong, then it is impossible for there to be alternatives to what he knows you are going to have. In other words, it's not merely that God knows that you are in fact going to have spaghetti, while other possibilities remain. Rather, since it is impossible for God to be wrong, it is also impossible for you to have anything else. Because for there to be another possibility is for there to be the possibility of God making a mistake."

"Another way of putting this is that, if you have free will, then you have the power to make God wrong – and that of course cannot be. God's foreknowledge – his perfect, infallible foreknowledge – is therefore incompatible with the kind of freedom that most Christians believe we have."

IS GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE COMPATIBLE WITH FREE WILL?

Traditional anything is the problem.

Jesus ain’t “Traditional”....

He is G-O-D and the freeist of the free! He deals moment to moment and has access to infinite timeless knowledge of outcome of all possible outcomes... but He clearly deals in the immediate...

The wow factor and amazing incomprehensibility of it all starts to set in... and then some kid raises his hand and thinks a 20 year study or a 500 year study could even begin to comprehend the INFINITE.

Take 47,000,000,000,000,000 years and multiply that by itself to the 1,000,000,000,000 th power and multiply that number by itself...

The result is still infantile compared to the Wisdom and experience of God...

And that is why Oligy’s of any kind involving God are humorous attempts to comprehend the incomprehensible...

Even the last verses in John say all the books in the world couldn’t even contain what He did in 30+ years... here on earth...

Yup...

It’s all about Him...

 

[jamesbond007]

It's a theological question more than a philosophical one imho. An omniscient, omnipresent God knows of our future, but does not determine our future. We still have free will. In the article, it may be easy for someone to predict what a person whom they know well will have for dinner tomorrow. Maybe they were privy to look in their fridge. However, we would not know if that person would steal money from someone tomorrow or 15 mins from now. God does not have control over what that person will do. (That is different from God being omnipotent in that he could control what a person will do.) I think this is key. The person has control over it or ability to decide or do something for themselves.

We also have predestination in which God guides us to be what we are meant to be. I think prayer is an excellent way to tap into divine guidance. It also refers to what God gave us in terms of intelligence, common sense, talent, ability and skills, so we are able to tap into this reservoir.

A more difficult question is what if a person is predestined for heaven or hell? God know, but is it really predestination that determines whether a person ends up as a final destination? Again, it is determined by free will and not predestination.

 

[jamesbond007]

Did he not form you in the Womb?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Jeremiah 1:5a “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;

That hardly sounds as "passive" as you would lead us to believe.



Yep. Apparently God chose to Create a being, Lucifer, who He knew would do just that BEFORE God chose to Create Him. Yet God made a free choice to Create Him anyway, apaprently for that very purpose, no?...

Are you saying God couldnt help BUT create Lucifer?

Your points are interesting since they differ from mine. "formed you from the womb" would mean predestination to me, i.e. whether you are male or female, iq level, talented and so on. What does it mean to you?

If God has free choice, then Lucifer has free choice whether to obey God or rise up against God because he turned his request down. Obviously (or maybe it isn't so obvious), if God didn't want Lucifer to rebel, then he would've not given him free will. I think you said you wouldn't have created Lucifer, but that's only one choice. Another could be Lucifer could only choose B and C or turn right instead of A, B, C or D or turn right, turn left, go straight or turn around.

 

[Deadworm]

Clement: "One of the biggest problems facing the traditional Christian believer is to explain how human beings can have free will given that God has perfect knowledge of the future. If God already knows what you are going to do tomorrow, then how can the decisions you make be free? It seems the only thing you can possibly do is what God already knows you are going to do – and if so, then you cannot have what philosophers call libertarian free will, the kind of freedom that most Christians, and in fact most people, believe human beings possess."

This complex question must confront these 3 points:
(1) Our omnipotent, omniscient God is a later church concept, not a biblical concept. We conceive of omnipotence and omniscient in Greek terms as the ability to do and foreknow everything that is logically possible to do and foreknow. The Hebraic concept is less precise; it implies that God can do and foreknow everything that it is actually possible to do and foreknow and thus allows for the possibility that somethings might not actually be possible to do or foreknow. Such a limitation is already implicit in the frequent puzzling biblical expressions of divine repentance or regret.

(2) The implication that God cannot predestine human fate without depriving us of our free will is implicit in Romans 8:29 which makes it clear that divine foreknowledge logically precedes predestination and not vice versa: "Those whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son." From His perspective outside time, God can foreknow our choices, good and bad, and fit that into His plan. If instead God perceive an X factor in our minds that allowed Him to predict our course of action, that X factor would predestine us to such choices and thus deprive us of free will. Remember, the scientific Big Bang theory teaches not that matter/energy expanded into space and time, but rather that this expansion created space and time--a view that supports the concept of a God outside time.

(3) Clement: "...so-called “open theists” reject the idea that God knows everything about the future."

This way of thinking still accounts for the possibility of Bible prophecy. But here is an analogy that offers another way of understanding prophecy. A chess grandmaster doesn't know which piece a novice opponent will move and where. But the grandmaster can counter the novices moves with moves that will shape the outcome to His liking. Bible prophecy is often couched in ambiguous imagery that can be construed in different ways. Perhaps the reason for this is that God cannot anticipate precise outcomes, but can "move pieces" in such a way that His grand design is fulfilled.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I really don't think there is anything God does not know. I don't think God 'decides' what He will or will not know. He is Omniscient, Omnipresent and all Truth is who He is.

So, I think knowing all Truth is not something God does, per se. But who God is at the core. Truth.

God says that one day we will all know all things. I think God will show us one day all Truth and His Word says that nothing will remain hidden.

I hope what I find out about my ex-husband doesn't shock me But I'm sure I'll be so happy to be with Jesus I'll be like my ex who?

 

[Sorn]

If God has the ability to see the future, he may not use it to see everything. Maybe he just sees who gets saved but not how they get there in their particular life's journey.

 

[Sorn]

a view that supports the concept of a God outside time.

God does not exist outside of time, he has his timeline to.
He just exists outside the timeline of our universe. In the same way that we exist outside the timeline of a movie we watch.