Against Those Who Reject Mary as the Mother of God

[FenderTL5]

So is everyone named Jesus Our Lord and Savior?

That seems to be the argument presented.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That seems to be the argument presented.

Forgive me for saying so but it seems more of an attempt to refuse to believe what is clearly written in the scriptures. Please understand I say this with a humble heart and can’t find a more kind way to put it. No offense intended.

 

[FenderTL5]

Forgive me for saying so but it seems more of an attempt to refuse to believe what is clearly written in the scriptures. Please understand I say this with a humble heart and can’t find a more kind way to put it. No offense intended.

You do understand that is not my position, correct?
I was just seeking clarification on the "swans are white" argument presented along with the previous statements by that poster.

To my knowledge the Church has never been ambiguous on which Mary in history, and recorded in the scriptures was Blessed, who gave birth to God the Word, and is the very Theotokos that we magnify.

 

[tz620q]

I couldn't care less if anyone agrees with me. It is more important to save people, than think about my reputation

How does "I could care less" equate to charity? Are you content in trying to bludgeon people into your viewpoint or would you rather approach them with love and understanding?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You do understand that is not my position, correct?
I was just clarifying the "swans are white" argument presented along with the previous statements by that poster.

To my knowledge the Church has never been ambiguous on which Mary in the scriptures was Blessed,who gave birth to God the Word, the very Theotokos that we magnify.

Oh please forgive my misunderstanding I thought you were being serious and that was your position. God bless you

 

[FenderTL5]

Oh please forgive my misunderstanding I thought you were being serious and that was your position. God bless you

no worries. I am serious but I was intending to get clarification from that poster on the point before I started barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Kenny'sID]

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬ ‭

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17-18‬

“In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. The Word gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it. God sent a man, John the Baptist, to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. John himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell about the light. The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God. So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-14‬

“No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭

“The Father and I are one.” Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?” They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭10:30-33‬ ‭

“You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:5-6‬

“You must worship no other gods, for the Lord, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭34:14‬ ‭

““Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose, and we have come to worship him.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭

“The women ran quickly from the tomb. They were very frightened but also filled with great joy, and they rushed to give the disciples the angel’s message. And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t be afraid! Go tell my brothers to leave for Galilee, and they will see me there.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:8-10‬

The Bible says Jesus is God.

Would a disagreement/argument change either of our minds? Of course it wouldn't.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Would a disagreement/argument change either of our minds? Of course it wouldn't.

Can you please provide the scriptures to support your point of view?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Can you please provide the scriptures to support your point of view?

It's common sense. God doesn't pray to himself for one.

Also, Christ said to pray the lords prayer to God and not to him because they are two different entities. Had they been one in the same, it wouldn't have mattered.

God sent his son to die for us...hint hint...his son, not himself. Son = different entity than a father, and it always has.

You can google those subjects if you wan t verses, but I think you know those are facts.

Did I change your mind?

 

[1stcenturylady]

How does "I could care less" equate to charity? Are you content in trying to bludgeon people into your viewpoint or would you rather approach them with love and understanding?

Was it charity and love that made Jesus turn over the tables of the moneychangers? The people also hated Jeremiah too for prophesying against them when the people worshiped the queen of heaven rather than the God of heaven. Is it love and charity to slap a toddler's hand as they reach for a pot of boiling water on the stove? There is still time to WAKE UP!

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's common sense. God doesn't pray to himself for one.

Also, Christ said to pray the lords prayer to God and not to him because they are two different entities. Had they been one in the same, it wouldn't have mattered.

God sent his son to die for us...hint hint...his son, not himself. Son = different entity than a father, and it always has.

You can google those subjects if you wan t verses, but I think you know those are facts.

Did I change your mind?

No because you still haven’t addressed the scriptures I sent that clearly state that Jesus is God and the First and Last and people worshipped Jesus. Exodus specifically says do not worship any other gods.

Jesus said give all glory to God so yes He said pray The Lord’s Prayer. Jesus was subordinate to God The Father. That still doesn’t change what is written in John 1:1.

God sent His son yes but what are you basing His separated entities on? Your basing them on the understanding that everyone and everything that has life has a single entity. But God is unlike anything we have ever encountered. We have a very limited understanding of God. We can’t make assumptions that contradict what the Bible plainly says. There is no interpretation needed to understand that the Bible plainly says Jesus is God several times.

The best way I can describe the Trinity is God, Jesus. and the Holy Spirit is one entity with 3 personalities. I struggled with this also but I had to accept what the Bible says is truth.

I see no point in googling for verses that state that Jesus is not God because there aren’t any. The only thing I would find is people making their own assumptions based on our extremely limited knowledge of God and disregarding what the Bible explicitly says.

God bless you brother Kenny. Please don’t confuse my disagreement with hostility or anger. It is not my intention. I’m focused on unity in Christianity and sharing information to test my own beliefs and further my understanding of God’s Word. I welcome disagreements with my beliefs but I must have difinitive proof that does not contradict the scriptures to change my beliefs. Have a blessed day brother.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Was it charity and love that made Jesus turn over the tables of the moneychangers? The people also hated Jeremiah too for prophesying against them when the people worshiped the queen of heaven rather than the God of heaven. Is it love and charity to slap a toddler's hand as they reach for a pot of boiling water on the stove? There is still time to WAKE UP!

I still don’t see how Mary is connected to Jezebel.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The pre-incarnate Word does not have a mother ... Mary is not the mother of the pre-incarnate Word, who is God.

I want to focus on these two claims, because they illustrate the problem I tackled earlier in this thread.

The pre-incarnate Word is not other than the incarnate Word. To say the pre-incarnate Word has no mother is to make a distinction between the Logos Asarkos and the Logos Ensarkos, and there is no distinction to be made as far as the Person of the Word is concerned.

The same Word which was in the beginning with God through whom all things were made is the same Word who was born of Mary. Therefore Mary is the mother of that Word, of that Person.

Mary is the mother of the "pre-incarnate Word" because she is the mother of the Word by way of His incarnation.

Mary became mother of the Logos when He took on flesh in her womb.

The Logos Ensarkos and the Logos Asarkos are one and the Same.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

It continues to be clear to me that the necessity of calling Mary Theotokos in order to assert proper and orthodox Christology remains a very important matter, seeing as how opponents continue to get Christology very wrong.

People can say they don't like it because they don't like giving too great an honor to Mary, but the reality is that I consistently see arguments which get the doctrine of Christ's Person and the Incarnation fundamentally wrong; because in order to argue against Mary as the true and actual mother of the Divine Son they need to, in some way, argue against the undivided Person of Jesus Christ.

They want to argue that Mary is the mother of a nature (humanity), not the mother of a Person. But Mary isn't the mother of a nature, she is the mother of a Person.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

I still don’t see how Mary is connected to Jezebel.

The real Mary isn't. It is the one they worship who only looks like her.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The real Mary isn't. It is the one they worship who only looks like her.

Anyone who worships the Blessed Virgin is a heretic, Collyridianism--an obscure sect that existed in pre-Islamic Arabia--was condemned as a heresy in the 4th century.

Collyridianism is still condemned as heresy, so anyone who would worship the mother of God is a heretic.

So who are these people who worship Christ's mother?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BNR32FAN]

The real Mary isn't. It is the one they worship who only looks like her.

Hail Mary mother of God...how does that get confused with Jezebel?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Anyone who worships the Blessed Virgin is a heretic, Collyridianism--an obscure sect that existed in pre-Islamic Arabia--was condemned as a heresy in the 4th century.

Collyridianism is still condemned as heresy, so anyone who would worship the mother of God is a heretic.

So who are these people who worship Christ's mother?

-CryptoLutheran

Yup they shouldn’t worship her or anyone else except God. Which is why I’m glad the RCC doesn’t worship Mary or the Saints. But they should be honored and respected as people who sacrificed much for God’s glory to be revealed to the world.

 

[Philip_B]

I believe a number of people who have wanted to contribute to this thread might be helped with a little bit of background, most notably the Council of Ephesus in 431. The wikipedia article carries the usual caveat that it is not an original source, however it is a good general read on the subject.

Council of Ephesus - Wikipedia

Ephesus is the third of the Oecumenical Councils - the first 4 (Nicaea 325, Constantinople 381, Ephesus 431, Chalcedon 451) and generally accepted in the East and the West (with specific exception to the Oriental Orthodox who almost certainly were misread and misunderstood at Chalcedon) as the early church came to understand it's theology.

The Council of Ephesus was concerned especially with Christology, (who is Jesus).

I would also quietly add that Christianity is not about who we are against, but rather who we are for, and scripture tells us that if we are a house divided we will fall.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yup they shouldn’t worship her or anyone else except God. Which is why I’m glad the RCC doesn’t worship Mary or the Saints. But they should be honored and respected as people who sacrificed much for God’s glory to be revealed to the world.

Unfortunately, that just isn't so. They DO worship her.