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Dr. Sam Storms on Eschatology

Douggg

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"Faith" also includes saving faith, i.e. faith unto salvation.
Faith can't save anyone - without Jesus having died on the cross for our sins. Persons promoting reform theology are being intentionally cloudy to cover up the flaws in their rationale.

The issue is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Not faith. The biggest portion of Israel rejected Jesus, therefore are not right with God.

You being right with God by the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't make you Israel. You are not born again an Israelite. You are born again a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile.
 
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jgr

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Faith can't save anyone - without Jesus having died on the cross for our sins. Persons promoting reform theology are being intentionally cloudy to cover up the flaws in their rationale.

The issue is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Not faith. The biggest portion of Israel rejected Jesus, therefore are not right with God.

You being right with God by the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't make you Israel.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


"Israel" means Prince of/with God. The name was originally given to Jacob, but is ultimately completely fulfilled only in Christ.

And He declares all who believe in Him to be joint-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). Thus it is completely accurate to recognize those in Him as being the Israel of God with Him (Galatians 6:16).
 
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seventysevens

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It is not worth arguing over but for some strange reason you seem to prefer to just ignore the scriptures about how the messiah has to be Jewish and come from the lineage of Jews and all the very specific scriptures that tell us that Jesus the messiah would not return until the actual geographical nation of Israel would exist again as it had not existed for 2000 years , that maternal Jews would be called back to that location and inhabit it and have the total authority over it. That the land would be fertile ground and become great with vegetation and their ancient language would be restored in their land and Jerusalem would be the nations control center- and all this is directly tied to a specific maternal people that are specific to the End time just prior to Jesus return and establish HIS Kingdom in that specific location on the globe - you can disregard them if you so desire :)


The only Israel that God recognizes are those of faith and obedience.

The same is true of Gentiles.

Therefore, all who are of faith and obedience qualify as the Israel of God.

The Israel of God is "ethnic-less".

Faith and obedience are His only critera.
 
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Douggg

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Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
It is implied faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The point being made it is not by our own works we are saved.


And He declares all who believe in Him to be joint-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). Thus it is completely accurate to recognize those in Him as being the Israel of God with Him (Galatians 6:16).
My comments in blue.


15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision (Israel, Jews ) availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision (gentiles), but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God is them who are circumicised (Israel, Jews) who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ - saved.
 
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jgr

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Israel would exist again as it had not existed for 2000 years

The nation of Egypt has never ceased to exist in history since its formation. Therefore, God's continuous preservation of Egypt is an even greater miracle than the re-formation of Israel.

I'm being facetious, but only partially.

Contemporary Israel is a product of terrorism and political subterfuge and treachery. It would collapse instantly without its enormous continuous infusions of American money and armaments.

It is as far a departure from anything endorsed by God as can be conceived.
 
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Douggg

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The nation of Egypt has never ceased to exist in history since its formation. Therefore, God's continuous preservation of Egypt is an even greater miracle than the re-formation of Israel.

I'm being facetious, but only partially.

Contemporary Israel is a product of terrorism and political subterfuge and treachery. It would collapse instantly without its enormous continuous infusions of American money and armaments.

It is as far a departure from anything endorsed by God as can be conceived.
Israel becoming a nation again is bible prophecy.
 
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BABerean2

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jgr, any gentile who thinks by virtue of having become a Christian are the Israel of God have duped themselves.

Anyone who thinks a person is the Israel of God because of their DNA has duped themselves.

You have no idea who is a Gentile and who is not without a DNA test.

All of those who belong to Christ are the seed of Abraham, based on Galatians chapter 3.
Jacob (Israel) was Abraham's grandson.



Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.





Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and was fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
These passages of scripture completely destroy the claim that the Church and the Israel of God are in no way related.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


The only way you can make your doctrine work is by ignoring the two verses found below.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


.
 
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seventysevens

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Given DNA's complete irrelevance to God, it should also be of complete irrelevance to us.
Then why is it that it is you who always brings it up ???? You are the one that Always brings it up -Just as you did in this thread :oldthumbsup:
 
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seventysevens

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You have no idea who is a Gentile and who is not without a DNA test..


None of us need to know who they are - God knows who they are and it is God who leads them back to the reborn Israel - It is God who is directing all these things we are seeing happening in Israel and surrounding countries and anyone who thinks not has duped themselves

 
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jgr

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Then why is it that it is you who always brings it up ???? You are the one that Always brings it up -Just as you did in this thread :oldthumbsup:
When you refer to "Jew" or "Israel", what is your criterion of identification?

You've never denied that it is DNA.

If it isn't DNA, what is it?
 
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BABerean2

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None of us need to know who they are - God knows who they are and it is God who leads them back to the reborn Israel - It is God who is directing all these things we are seeing happening in Israel and surrounding countries and anyone who thinks not has duped themselves


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

.
 
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seventysevens

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The nation of Egypt has never ceased to exist in history since its formation. Therefore, God's continuous preservation of Egypt is an even greater miracle than the re-formation of Israel.

I'm being facetious, but only partially.

Contemporary Israel is a product of terrorism and political subterfuge and treachery. It would collapse instantly without its enormous continuous infusions of American money and armaments.

It is as far a departure from anything endorsed by God as can be conceived.
If you don't know the scripture prophecy about the nation of Israel being reborn you need to learn it
how it came to be is not relevant - Israel is the only country in the history of the planet that was disbanded with the inhabitants spread over the nations and the land owned by other nations operated with an different national name as a different country for 2000 years and then be reborn as Nation
IF you want the truth you will need to study it - or perhaps someone else will educate you but I not spending my time when it is you that objects to it
 
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seventysevens

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Anyone who thinks a person is the Israel of God because of their DNA has duped themselves.

You have no idea who is a Gentile and who is not without a DNA test.

.
None of us need to know who they are - God knows who they are and it is God who leads them back to the reborn Israel - It is God who is directing all these things we are seeing happening in Israel and surrounding countries and anyone who thinks not has duped themselves
 
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jgr

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None of us need to know who they are - God knows who they are and it is God who leads them back to the reborn Israel - It is God who is directing all these things we are seeing happening in Israel and surrounding countries and anyone who thinks not has duped themselves
God is leading back unbelievers who then proceed to support the oppression and murder of Palestinian Christians.

Is that the God you're referring to?
 
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Douggg

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Anyone who thinks a person is the Israel of God because of their DNA has duped themselves.
No-one is making that claim because the Jews as a whole have not embraced Jesus
.
 
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seventysevens

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God is leading back unbelievers who then proceed to support the oppression and murder of Palestinian Christians.

Is that the God you're referring to?
Nope ! You will need to go back to the very beginning then meditate of the scripture as you read it -- as you are way off in the ditch about to hit a tree
 
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Douggg

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Where do you see that?
Ezekiel 37 clear as can be.

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
 
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Douggg

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When you refer to "Jew" or "Israel", what is your criterion of identification?

You've never denied that it is DNA.

If it isn't DNA, what is it?
The DNA issue is reform theology's seeking to deal with its failed doctrine. God does not depend on DNA testing.

It doesn't matter one iota whether any human can determine who it a Jew or not. It is God Who brings them back to become one nation again in Ezekiel 37. God has already determined who is a Jew, who is of the twelve tribes, as He has brought them out of the nations to become one nation again, not two separate nations of the northern and southern kingdoms.

It has been done already. 1948. And is one nation right before the eyes of the whole world. Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967. The United States recognizing Jerusalem as the capital.

....but, reform theology can not come to grips with it because it proves that theology is wrong about its doctrine that the Church has become the Israel of God. Reform theology is in full denial of reality.

Which Reform theology can not handle another temple being built - because it goes against its failed theology of the Church having become Israel.
 
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jgr

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God has already determined who is a Jew, who is of the twelve tribes

You've already "circularized" your argument.

You claim that God does not depend on DNA testing.

But then you claim that He has determined who is a Jew of the twelve tribes. That is an ethnic, i.e. DNA, determination.

How can God make a DNA determination without determining the DNA?
 
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seventysevens

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You've already "circularized" your argument.

You claim that God does not depend on DNA testing.

But then you claim that He has determined who is a Jew of the twelve tribes. That is an ethnic, i.e. DNA, determination.

How can God make a DNA determination without determining the DNA?
Is God not able to have the birds of migration know where to go during migration and when to go , Did God not create them in the first place
God knows every hair on everyone's head which includes every race of person , DNA is in each strand of hair , Do you really think that the creator of all life and the universe would have to have a DNA test to know who he created ? In Jeremiah God said he knew you in the womb before you were born , :oldthumbsup:
 
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Douggg

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You've already "circularized" your argument.

You claim that God does not depend on DNA testing.

But then you claim that He has determined who is a Jew of the twelve tribes. That is an ethnic, i.e. DNA, determination.

How can God make a DNA determination without determining the DNA?
It doesn't have anything to do with DNA....the DNA criteria is something them who don't want to accept what God has done. God determines who is a Jew, or an Israelite, or not.

In Matthew and Luke genealogies does it talk about DNA ? No.

Because....

God knows the lineage of every person on earth all the way back to Adam without DNA. Who is a Jew. Who is not a Jew. Who is an Israelite. Who is not an Israelite. He knows the number of hairs on your head - without DNA. It is what God says He will do that is relevant.

And He has done what He said He would do in Ezekiel 37.

Israel is one nation again. It has happened. What is left of Ezekiel 37 is that Jesus be their King. And of Matthew 23, that Jerusalem say blessed he who comes in the name of the Lord.

You are not coming to grips with reality. You are not accepting that reform theology doctrine of the Church has become Israel is wrong. The Ezekiel 37 of God bringing the twelve tribes out of the nations to be one nation again has happened.

Reform theology eschatology is wrong accordingly, but can't come to grips with the prophecies speaking about Israel is not speaking about the church. Ezekiel 37 is speaking about Israel, not the church.

Revelation 12 is speaking about Israel, not the church.

Daniel 9 is speaking about Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
 
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BABerean2

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It is God who is directing all these things we are seeing happening in Israel and surrounding countries and anyone who thinks not has duped themselves

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Here is one of the men who is directing these things.
The modern Zionist movement was begun by a man who did not have his son circumcised.
It has succeeded mainly through political manipulation.
It has become one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.
The Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology is a part of that deception. It only works by ignoring the scripture found below.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine has driven some, like Pastor John Hagee, to claim that Jews do not need Jesus because they are under a different covenant.
Apparently, Hagee has cut Galatians 1:6-9 out of his Bible.



1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.
 
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seventysevens

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Here is one of the men who is directing these things.
The modern Zionist movement was begun by a man who did not have his son circumcised..

It seems that you have the idea that God would only use His holy people to bring about all of the plans of God , God said it clearly that HE would bring Israel back to her own land - scripture has been provided to you -

But instead of Believing what God has said , you would rather believe what some man has declared that he is the one who made it happen - So you seem to be saying that God did not do it - That God would not or could not cause His plan to come to pass using the human that HE God created to bring this to pass .

A future prophecy that will happen soon is that God will cause an army to come down from the northern parts to wage war on Israel, -when it happens will you then again deny God that brings it to happened -because God said it would happen and believe only the leaders of the army that come to attack Israel ?

 
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jgr

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It doesn't have anything to do with DNA....the DNA criteria is something them who don't want to accept what God has done. God determines who is a Jew, or an Israelite, or not.

In Matthew and Luke genealogies does it talk about DNA ? No.

Because....

God knows the lineage of every person on earth all the way back to Adam without DNA. Who is a Jew. Who is not a Jew. Who is an Israelite. Who is not an Israelite. He knows the number of hairs on your head - without DNA. It is what God says He will do that is relevant.

And He has done what He said He would do in Ezekiel 37.

Israel is one nation again. It has happened. What is left of Ezekiel 37 is that Jesus be their King. And of Matthew 23, that Jerusalem say blessed he who comes in the name of the Lord.

You are not coming to grips with reality. You are not accepting that reform theology doctrine of the Church has become Israel is wrong. The Ezekiel 37 of God bringing the twelve tribes out of the nations to be one nation again has happened.

Reform theology eschatology is wrong accordingly, but can't come to grips with the prophecies speaking about Israel is not speaking about the church. Ezekiel 37 is speaking about Israel, not the church.

Revelation 12 is speaking about Israel, not the church.

Daniel 9 is speaking about Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
There is no such thing as genealogy without DNA. The ancients used genealogy without knowing that it was a reflection of their DNA. Science (which confirms God's creativity in the universes) now confirms that genealogy reflects DNA.

Who created DNA, and for what purpose?

God is the Creator of DNA, without which there is no life or genealogy. He wouldn't have created it without having a purpose for it.

And one of those purposes is to distinguish between the "children of the flesh" and the "children of God" (Romans 9:8).
 
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jgr

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It doesn't have anything to do with DNA....the DNA criteria is something them who don't want to accept what God has done. God determines who is a Jew, or an Israelite, or not.

In Matthew and Luke genealogies does it talk about DNA ? No.

Because....

God knows the lineage of every person on earth all the way back to Adam without DNA. Who is a Jew. Who is not a Jew. Who is an Israelite. Who is not an Israelite. He knows the number of hairs on your head - without DNA. It is what God says He will do that is relevant.

And He has done what He said He would do in Ezekiel 37.

Israel is one nation again. It has happened. What is left of Ezekiel 37 is that Jesus be their King. And of Matthew 23, that Jerusalem say blessed he who comes in the name of the Lord.

You are not coming to grips with reality. You are not accepting that reform theology doctrine of the Church has become Israel is wrong. The Ezekiel 37 of God bringing the twelve tribes out of the nations to be one nation again has happened.

Reform theology eschatology is wrong accordingly, but can't come to grips with the prophecies speaking about Israel is not speaking about the church. Ezekiel 37 is speaking about Israel, not the church.

Revelation 12 is speaking about Israel, not the church.

Daniel 9 is speaking about Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
The old covenant carcass that you attempt to exhume has been dead, decayed, and vanished for about 2,000 years (Hebrews 8:13).

All of its promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 8:17).

In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.


Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.


There can be none greater.


We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.


And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:


Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.
 
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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
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There is no such thing as genealogy without DNA. The ancients used genealogy without knowing that it was a reflection of their DNA. Science (which confirms God's creativity in the universes) now confirms that genealogy reflects DNA.

Who created DNA, and for what purpose?

God is the Creator of DNA, without which there is no life or genealogy. He wouldn't have created it without having a purpose for it.

And one of those purposes is to distinguish between the "children of the flesh" and the "children of God" (Romans 9:8).
God does not run a DNA test to determine who is an Israelite or a Jew. He doesn't need a calculator to know the numbers of hairs on your head. Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled of joining the two sticks together to become one nation. Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews.

Reform theology's doctrine of the Church has become Israel - is proven wrong. But them who hold that doctrine can not come to grips with it.

That doctrine was threatened by the dispensationalists, when they came around. Which is reform theology followers attack dispensationalists so hard... obsessively, imo. I am not defending dispensationalism. But so much of this forum's commentary has to deal with defending Reform theology's doctrine of the Church has become Israel, when it is a lost cause.

Back before 2011, I had a theory that the 7 years would start in 2011, not later than, based upon 1948 +70. When 2011 came and went, and no confirming of the covenant for 7 years - did I dig in my heels and come up with all sorts explanations that it had actually been fulfilled in some abstract way? No, I didn't. I admitted the theory was a bust.

And I realized that the fig tree was not Israel - as commentators like Jack Van Impe were all saying. And that Juan Carlos was not the Antichrist as he was also saying. But the fig tree is Jerusalem, 1967.

What Reform theologists should do is the same, given the fulfillment of Israel becoming one nation again of Ezekiel 37, and abandoned the doctrine of the Church having become Israel - which it clearly hasn't.
 
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