Humans aren't apes... but biologically how?

AnotherAtheist

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first of all, we are talking about only few different species, since even according to creationism most species are just variations of the original "kinds". so we only need to deal with about no more than few convergent loss. now, take a look at this figure:

1-s2.0-S2211124712002720-figs2.jpg



as you can see above, about 6 different exons loss are shared between marmoset and microbat, but surprisingly, without a common descent. this finding prove that we can get the same exon loss without a common descent. therefore a shared exon loss cant be evidence for a common descent.

(reference: A “forward genomics” approach links genotype to phenotype using independent phenotypic losses among related species)

An exon is an entire coding region of a gene. Just because different lineages have lost some of the same exons does not mean that they have experienced the same mutation. Exons can be independently lost due to different mutations, as they are whole regions of DNA. See here for more information: Exon - Wikipedia

When multiple species share a lost trait because a common ancestor lost the trait, then they will share mutations, not all of them as some more may have happened since speciation. But, there will be common mutations showing that the mutations happened to a common ancestor. These won't be found at a frequency greater than chance when traits are lost independently.

So, your reference and graph do not support your argument.
 
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xianghua

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There you go - a plausible explanation of the evolution of the bacterial flagellum. So, we're only a decade behind here :)

not realy. actually even evolutionists reject that paper:

Evolution: Reducible Complexity — The Case for Bacterial Flagella - ScienceDirect

"This “single ancestor for all core flagellar proteins” hypothesis is, however, heavily criticized on the Panda's Thumb weblog (The Panda’s Thumb) by Matzke, who suggests that faulty setting of BLAST defaults has misled Liu and Ochman [2], and that homologies beyond those among axial proteins already noted are misinterpreted. Equally problematic, we think, is their conclusion that “proteins forming the flagellum, the rod, hook and filament proteins, originated in an order that mirrors the ‘inside-out’ flagellar assembly process”. Common sense might suggest such a scenario, but only rooted trees, which Liu and Ochman [2] do not provide, can prove it."
 
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xianghua

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I'm sorry, I don't understand the point that you are trying to make. The point that I was making was that it is not a matter of finding just one car with a broken mirror, but of finding a large number of cars with the same mirror broken in the same way. As hecd2 points out,

In other words all the Ferraris with the same type of break in the mirror must be descended from a common ancestor with that type of break. This has no bearing on whether the Ferrari was designed in the first place; that is a separate question. In the same way, so far as I can see, the fact that we share a common ancestor with other primates isn't relevant to the question whether we were designed.
see above. we can get the same mutations without a common descent. more than that: do you agree or disagree that if we will find 2 cars with the same type of break in the mirror we need to conclude that they share a common descent?
 
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AnotherAtheist

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not realy. actually even evolutionists reject that paper:

Evolution: Reducible Complexity — The Case for Bacterial Flagella - ScienceDirect

"This “single ancestor for all core flagellar proteins” hypothesis is, however, heavily criticized on the Panda's Thumb weblog (The Panda’s Thumb) by Matzke, who suggests that faulty setting of BLAST defaults has misled Liu and Ochman [2], and that homologies beyond those among axial proteins already noted are misinterpreted. Equally problematic, we think, is their conclusion that “proteins forming the flagellum, the rod, hook and filament proteins, originated in an order that mirrors the ‘inside-out’ flagellar assembly process”. Common sense might suggest such a scenario, but only rooted trees, which Liu and Ochman [2] do not provide, can prove it."

First, that's a weblog they're quoting. There is some discussion about Liu and Ochman's paper, and some of the criticism of their being too eager to conclude a single origin for the flagella appears justified. Structural diversity of bacterial flagellar motors

However, this is science, and other plausible explanations for the evolution of the flagella are available. E.g. Structural diversity of bacterial flagellar motors How a neutral evolutionary ratchet can build cellular complexity Certainly there is nothing in this research, and I just read several papers, which points to any part or the whole bacterial flagella being irreducibly complex. Quite the opposite: it appears that flagella have evolved independently a number of times.

So, this is similar to ID proponents claims for eyes. ID proponents claimed that eyes were too complex to have evolved naturally. (They often use the strawman 'by chance'). However, it turns out that eyes evolve easiily, and have evolved multiple times. It appears the same applies to the flagella.

see above. we can get the same mutations without a common descent. more than that: do you agree or disagree that if we will find 2 cars with the same type of break in the mirror we need to conclude that they share a common descent?

Your above post doesn't find the same mutations. It reports whole regions that are broken in species that are not closely related (and where the broken genes will not have come from a common ancestor). But that does not mean that they are the same mutation. A whole region of a gene can be broken by a whole lot of different mutations. You are mischaracterising the research results that you presented.
 
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USincognito

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Are you really suggesting that the L-gulonolactone oxidase gene was independently broken in the same way in all the 280+ species of apes, monkeys and tarsiers (which form a related group based on other criteria) but not broken in the same way in any other vertebrate outside that related group. Really?

Especially since the further mutations that have occurred and fixed within the pseudogene since the gene has not been under purifying selection can be used to create a nested hierarchy of the affected species which is consistent with other evidence of relatedness amongst the clade.

As I have said before, the only explanation is that all Haplorhini, including man, have a common ancestor in which the gene function was lost.

Of course! God's got a sense of humor and did that just to mess with evolutionists. Or some other such nonsense...
 
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hecd2

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first of all, we are talking about only few different species, since even according to creationism most species are just variations of the original "kinds".
So, we are talking here about a very well determined and limited clade, the Haplorhini which includes about 280 species consisting of the tarsiers, the New World monkeys, the Old World monkeys and the apes including man. So you should be able:
a) to inform us how many original "kinds" are represented in the Haplorhini,
b) which taxa fall into which "kinds" (for example, are chimpanzees and gibbons the same kind? What about howler monkeys and baboons? Spider monkeys and howler monkeys? Chimpanzees and bonobos? and so on.)
c) and most importantly, the rationale you used to determine the number of "kinds" and the membership of each "kind".

If you cannot answer the questions in a way that is clearly reasonable and consistent, we have every right to conclude that your concept of "kind" is ill-defined and useless in biology.
 
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hecd2

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do you agree or disagree that if we will find 2 cars with the same type of break in the mirror we need to conclude that they share a common descent?
Cars don't reproduce so your question is totally ridiculous.
 
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hecd2

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so we only need to deal with about no more than few convergent loss. now, take a look at this figure:

1-s2.0-S2211124712002720-figs2.jpg



as you can see above, about 6 different exons loss are shared between marmoset and microbat, but surprisingly, without a common descent. this finding prove that we can get the same exon loss without a common descent. therefore a shared exon loss cant be evidence for a common descent.

(reference: A “forward genomics” approach links genotype to phenotype using independent phenotypic losses among related species)
There are a number of things to say about this, so this is likely to be a longer post with some technical details. The major import of this post is that you have cited a paper and figure, which doesn't support your position. On the contrary, it demolishes it.

First, you need to understand that the process we are looking at occurs in more than one stage. Initially there is a mutation which prevents the gene from working - a loss of function mutation. Such a mutation could be a frame-shift indel, a substitution which produces a stop codon or some other fatal missense, a splice donor or acceptor site mutation and so forth. It is unlikely to be the loss of an entire exon. Once the pseudogene has fixed in the population and is no longer under selection, it is free to degrade through neutral drift, and that degrading over time leads to the accumulation of further mutations such as indels, substitutions, loss of exons and so on.

Wherever a mutation occurs before the divergence of two taxa, we expect to find that mutation in both taxa. Where the mutation occurs after the divergence it will be found only in one taxon and not the other. So, the degraded pseudogene itself forms a family tree, with closely related species sharing more of the accumulated mutations than is shared with less closely related taxa.

Look to the left hand side of the figure where you will see a phylogeny with the loss of GULO marked by crosses. The hypothesis is that guinea pigs, Haplorhini and two types of bats independently lost the GULO gene (four separate events). Those losses are marked by crosses. So the hypothesis is that that the GULO gene was lost once in the common ancestor of the Haplorhini and that is why all tarsiers, monkeys and apes lack the gene.

Now, since the Haplorhini form a family tree with the divergence of different populations within that group inferred from phenotypic and genetic data, we predict that the more closely related species will share more of the subsequently accumulated mutations than more distantly related species. What do we see?

Let's start with human and chimp, the most closely related great apes. The accumulated mutations are identical:
* Loss of exons 2, 3, 6 and 8 and partial loss of exon 11
* A frameshift deletion in exon 7
* Splice donor site mutation 5'wards of exon 7
* A frameshift insertion on exon 9
* Splice donor site mutation 5'wards of exon 9
* A frameshift deletion on exon 10
* A stop mutation on exon 12

Gorilla: The same except the additional deletion of four base pairs on exon 7 and seven base pairs on exon 9 which we can infer a gorilla specific mutations

Orangutan: The same apart from a splice donor mutation 5'wards of exon 5 not present in human, chimp or gorilla.

Rhesus monkey, an Old World monkey: Shows the same pattern apart from a 16bp deletion on exon 7

Marmoset, a New World monkey: The gene is more highly degraded than in any of the Catarrhini (Old World monkeys and apes). In addition to the above exon losses, it has lost exons 4, 5, 7 and 10; and exon 11, partly lost in the Catarrhini is completely lost in marmoset. In addition there a 2bp and a 38bp insertion on exon 9 and 5bp deletion on exon 12. However the pattern of a stop mutation on exon 10 and the splice donor mutation on exon 9 is the same, suggesting that these mutations pre-date the divergence of Catarrhini and new world monkeys.

Tarsier: Loss of exons 2, 3,and 6 in common with the simians, but different in many other respects, suggesting that the original loss of function occurred shortly before the divergence of tarsiers and monkeys.

So we can see that the prediction that more closely related species will have accumulated a more similar set of mutations on the pseudogene over time is very powerfully borne out and illustrated in this figure.

What about species that independently lost the GULO gene? It is clear that the pattern of degrading the pseudogene is unrelated to the Haplorhini. In guinea pig there are stop mutations on exons 2 and 3, which exons are not present in any of the Haplorhini. Likewise exons 8 and 11 are present in guinea pig and lost or partly lost in Haplorhini, there is a splice acceptor site mutation on exon 12 etc. The pattern of accumulated mutations in the two bat species shows no commonality with guinea pig, Haplorhini and one another.

So this figure is powerful evidence for common descent and the family tree of the monkeys and apes, showing the close relatedness of the great apes including man. Xianghua has to explain how come all the Haplorhini have a broken GULO gene and why the pattern of accumulated mutations is the same as the family tree of the clade. The accumulated mutations on the pseudogene of man and chimpanzee are identical, and of all the Catarhini almost identical and it is simply not reasonable to suggest that this occurred independently.
 
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DogmaHunter

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see above. we can get the same mutations without a common descent. more than that: do you agree or disagree that if we will find 2 cars with the same type of break in the mirror we need to conclude that they share a common descent?

Cars don't have ancestors.
 
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Astrophile

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see above. we can get the same mutations without a common descent. more than that: do you agree or disagree that if we will find 2 cars with the same type of break in the mirror we need to conclude that they share a common descent?

You would need more than two cars. However, if you found 50 cars with the same type of break in the mirror, and less than five with different types of breaks, you would be justified in concluding that the 50 cars with the same type of break were descended from a common ancestor.
 
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xianghua

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You would need more than two cars. However, if you found 50 cars with the same type of break in the mirror, and less than five with different types of breaks, you would be justified in concluding that the 50 cars with the same type of break were descended from a common ancestor.
so a car dont doesnt need a designer than?
 
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Speedwell

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so a car dont doesnt need a designer than?
We would only be able to conclude design if there was evidence of manufacture. Otherwise we couldn't tell.

As a practical matter we assume that cars have designers because we have never seen a car that wasn't manufactured.

If you can show us a car that doesn't appear to have been manufactured, then we couldn't tell you whether it had a designer or not.
 
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xianghua

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to inform us how many original "kinds" are represented in the Haplorhini

since the Haplorhini group include about 8-9 different families we are talking about 8-9 different original creationists "kinds". but this is only the upper limit since some of those families may represent a single "kind".

Let's start with human and chimp, the most closely related great apes. The accumulated mutations are identical:

they are identical, but who said they are in the same position?


So we can see that the prediction that more closely related species will have accumulated a more similar set of mutations on the pseudogene over time is very powerfully borne out and illustrated in this figure.

actually id predict it too. similar genome can just mean to expect similar mutations in general.

The pattern of accumulated mutations in the two bat species shows no commonality with guinea pig, Haplorhini and one another.

they share about 6 different exon loss. are you saying that 6 shared exon loss isnt evidence for a common descent?
 
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Astrophile

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so a car doesn't need a designer than?

I didn't say that. In fact I said in post 457 that the fact that the Ferraris with the same type of break in the mirror must be descended from a common ancestor has no bearing on whether the Ferrari was designed in the first place.

In other words all the Ferraris with the same type of break in the mirror must be descended from a common ancestor with that type of break. This has no bearing on whether the Ferrari was designed in the first place; that is a separate question.

Do you think that the fact that you have many of the same genes as your siblings and your cousins, and that you are descended from the same ancestors, means that you were not designed?
 
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hecd2

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hecd2 said:
Cars don't reproduce so your question is totally ridiculous
so if car were able to do so you will not conclude design?
If cars were able to do so they wouldn't be cars so your question remains totally ludicrous.
 
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hecd2

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I didn't say that. In fact I said in post 457 that the fact that the Ferraris with the same type of break in the mirror must be descended from a common ancestor...
Ferraris don't reproduce so they don't have any sort of ancestors.
 
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hecd2

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since the Haplorhini group include about 8-9 different families we are talking about 8-9 different original creationists "kinds". but this is only the upper limit since some of those families may represent a single "kind".
Can I remind you that I asked you a much more detailed qestion than the one you answered, viz:
hecd2 said:
So you should be able:
a) to inform us how many original "kinds" are represented in the Haplorhini,
b) which taxa fall into which "kinds" (for example, are chimpanzees and gibbons the same kind? What about howler monkeys and baboons? Spider monkeys and howler monkeys? Chimpanzees and bonobos? and so on.)
c) and most importantly, the rationale you used to determine the number of "kinds" and the membership of each "kind".
You failed on a), because although you suggested that the biological taxonomy of families is synonymous with "kinds", you weren't sure and you suggested that there might be fewer "kinds" than families. So you have no secure way to define original "kinds".
You failed on c) because you provided no rationale whatsoever to explain why you have chosen to make families synonymous with "kinds". Why not species? Why not genera? Why not superfamilies or parvorders or infraorders. Your assertion is not based on any evidence or reason - you are just making it up as you go along.

But you have chosen (without reason) families. In biology a family is a clade descended from a common ancestor and this conclusion is based on a comparison of the phenotypes and genotypes of the individual species. I gather that you accept the fact that families ("kinds" in your parlance) have a common ancestor, since that is exactly the definition of a "kind" - a set of species with a common ancestor originating with a special creation. But species, genera, superfamilies, infraorders and orders also have a common ancestor in biology because of their shared phenotypic and genomic characteristics - why haven't you chosen them to represent "kinds"? (We're just looking for a rationale here)

Finally, you succeeded on b) if we grant you a). As almost everyone else will have realised, if you choose families (or a higher order) to be synonymous with "kind", that puts humans, chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans in the same "kind".

I think my work here is done.
 
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