New Jerusalem?

[jgr]

JESUS WILL RETURN TWO MORE TIMES: THE FIRST TIME FOR HIS CHURCH, TO MEET THEM IN THE SKY AND THE SECOND TIME, HE WILL RETURN TO THE EARTH, WITH HIS CHURCH, FROM THEIR MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN, AS RECORDED IN THE SCRIPTURES BELOW:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

You've missed (or deliberately ignored?) the point completely. We're discussing 2 Thess. 2:3, remember? The two brethren I cited, Justin Martyr and Victorinus, correctly recognized that Paul meant apostasy. Unless you can cite earlier brethren to support rapture rather than apostasy, your claim that the verse historically referred to rapture until the KJV; is demonstrably false.

Justin Martyr in Dialogue of Justin
O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy

Victorinus in Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Paul the apostle says: "Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped."

More than 1000 years before the KJV was written, these two brethren confirmed Paul's word choice, and the intended meaning of that word.

Apostasy. Falling away.

 

[jgr]

You have swallowed a real can of worms! Please tell me which of the following Abraham came from! The Church of Christ consists of most every nation and languave on earth, as follows:

The Table of Nations
10 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.

The Japhethites
2 The sonsa]">[a] of Japheth:

Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras.

3 The sons of Gomer:

Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.

4 The sons of Javan:

Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites and the Rodanites.b]">[b] 5 (From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)

The Hamites
6 The sons of Ham:

Cush, Egypt, Put and Canaan.

7 The sons of Cush:

Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteka.

The sons of Raamah:

Sheba and Dedan.

8 Cush was the fatherc]">[c] of Nimrod, who became a mighty warrior on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; that is why it is said, “Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Uruk, Akkad and Kalneh, ind]">[d] Shinar.e]">[e] 11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir,f]">[f] Calah 12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah—which is the great city.

13 Egypt was the father of

the Ludites, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphtuhites, 14 Pathrusites, Kasluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites.

15 Canaan was the father of

Sidon his firstborn,g]">[g] and of the Hittites, 16 Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, 17 Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, 18 Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.

Later the Canaanite clans scattered 19 and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, as far as Lasha.

20 These are the sons of Ham by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

The Semites
21 Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother wash]">[h] Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.

22 The sons of Shem:

Elam, Ashur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram.

23 The sons of Aram:

Uz, Hul, Gether and Meshek.i]">[i]

24 Arphaxad was the father ofj]">[j] Shelah,

and Shelah the father of Eber.

25 Two sons were born to Eber:

One was named Peleg,k]">[k] because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.

26 Joktan was the father of

Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan.

30 The region where they lived stretched from Mesha toward Sephar, in the eastern hill country.

31 These are the sons of Shem by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

32 These are the clans of Noah’s sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.


Quasar92

Wherever Abraham came from has nothing to do with where he and his offspring went. And they went all over the planet to this day, as the Jewish community itself agrees and applauds.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

Today, genetically, Abraham is in all of us. But his physical genes are not what God is interested in.

It's his spiritual genes. Galatians 3:28-29.

 

[Quasar92]

Wherever Abraham came from has nothing to do with where he and his offspring went. And they went all over the planet to this day, as the Jewish community itself agrees and applauds.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

Today, genetically, Abraham is in all of us. But his physical genes are not what God is interested in.

It's his spiritual genes. Galatians 3:28-29.

Your attempt to peddle the oracle tht the church is connected to Abraham by DNA is ridiculous! The only memkbers of the Church connected to Abrahm through DNA, are the Jews who become members of the one body of Christ, His Church. All other members come from all nations and languages of the world, that have no connection with Abraham, except SPIRITUALLY, through Jesus Christ! Who is the seed of Abraham the Church has its connection by.

Where Abraham came from in the documentation of the nations, in Gen.10, reveals the vast sources in the world, members of the Church come from, other than by your imagined DNA of Abraham!

Provide the source for that claim, please!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

You've missed (or deliberately ignored?) the point completely. We're discussing 2 Thess. 2:3, remember? The two brethren I cited, Justin Martyr and Victorinus, correctly recognized that Paul meant apostasy. Unless you can cite earlier brethren to support rapture rather than apostasy, your claim that the verse historically referred to rapture until the KJV; is demonstrably false.

Justin Martyr in Dialogue of Justin
O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy

Victorinus in Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Paul the apostle says: "Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped."

More than 1000 years before the KJV was written, these two brethren confirmed Paul's word choice, and the intended meaning of that word.

Apostasy. Falling away.

I have missed nothing pertaining to the meaning of the 2 Thess.2:1-8 passage of Scripture. My studies in eschatology alone, have been for 36 years. Together with Dr. Thomas Ice, PhD, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, have provided the intended interpretation of that passage, s documented below. While you dogmatically argue, Paul used the words falling away, or apostasy, instead of the word departure, that he used, as well a Jerome, who translated it with the Latin word, discessio, also meaning departure, for the context of 1 Thess.4:14=17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 context it is in.

Let me see what you make of the 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 mean since you think apostasia or falling away, is what Paul said. You have yet to compose anything for that.

You are the one who is missing the proper interpretation of that passage because you deny the teachings for a pre-trib rapture of the Church, which it is all about!

Review my post #192


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

I have missed nothing pertaining to the meaning of the 2 Thess.2:1-8 passage of Scripture. My studies in eschatology alone, have been for 36 years. Together with Dr. Thomas Ice, PhD, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, have provided the intended interpretation of that passage, s documented below. While you dogmatically argue, Paul used the words falling away, or apostasy, instead of the word departure, that he used, as well a Jerome, who translated it with the Latin word, discessio, also meaning departure, for the context of 1 Thess.4:14=17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 context it is in.

Let me see what you make of the 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 mean since you think apostasia or falling away, is what Paul said. You have yet to compose anything for that.

You are the one who is missing the proper interpretation of that passage because you deny the teachings for a pre-trib rapture of the Church, which it is all about!

Review my post #192


Quasar92

It only took about 2000 years to discover your interpretation. You and Ice are on thin ice...

 

[jgr]

Your attempt to peddle the oracle tht the church is connected to Abraham by DNA is ridiculous! The only memkbers of the Church connected to Abrahm through DNA, are the Jews who become members of the one body of Christ, His Church. All other members come from all nations and languages of the world, that have no connection with Abraham, except SPIRITUALLY, through Jesus Christ! Who is the seed of Abraham the Church has its connection by.

Where Abraham came from in the documentation of the nations, in Gen.10, reveals the vast sources in the world, members of the Church come from, other than by your imagined DNA of Abraham!

Provide the source for that claim, please!


Quasar92

Unsurprisingly, you've again missed (or deliberately ignored?) the point.

The whole world is connected to Abraham by DNA. Therefore his physical DNA cannot be God's selection criterion for determining His Chosen People. But it never was. That criterion was, is, and forever will be; Abraham's spiritual DNA exclusively.

The source is in these links. You should try reading them.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

But they do discuss genetic science, both of which are dispensationally alien concepts.

 

[Quasar92]

It only took about 2000 years to discover your interpretation. You and Ice are on thin ice...

Your above assessment comes from a completely empty wagon of meaningless opinion the following four post link has refuted you by, many times over! Either field a Scripturally based argument to support your views, or those from the following link fully refute you again.

The teachings about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in the first century, is recorded in the first of the four links below:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

I have missed nothing pertaining to the meaning of the 2 Thess.2:1-8 passage of Scripture. My studies in eschatology alone, have been for 36 years. Together with Dr. Thomas Ice, PhD, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, have provided the intended interpretation of that passage, s documented below. While you dogmatically argue, Paul used the words falling away, or apostasy, instead of the word departure, that he used, as well a Jerome, who translated it with the Latin word, discessio, also meaning departure, for the context of 1 Thess.4:14=17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 context it is in.

Let me see what you make of the 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 mean since you think apostasia or falling away, is what Paul said. You have yet to compose anything for that.

You are the one who is missing the proper interpretation of that passage because you deny the teachings for a pre-trib rapture of the Church, which it is all about!

Review my post #192


Quasar92

You seem to have missed something in my previous post. Specifically, the testimonies of two early brethren, Justin Martyr and Victorinus by name. Their testimonies far pre-date anything you've been able to produce. And they knew whereof Paul spoke.

Apostasy. Falling away.

All of the studies, education, and PhD's in the world cannot dismiss the historic witness of these two brethren.

But continue to enjoy trying.

 

[Quasar92]

You seem to have missed something in my previous post. Specifically, the testimonies of two early brethren, Justin Martyr and Victorinus by name. Their testimonies far pre-date anything you've been able to produce. And they knew whereof Paul spoke.

Apostasy. Falling away.

All of the studies, education, and PhD's in the world cannot dismiss the historic witness of these two brethren.

But continue to enjoy trying.

You clearly miss the fact that what Paul, Jesus and the disciples posted pre-date any examples you hve posted Capiche?!

I'm still waiting to see where you go with your apostasy and falling away in the two epistles of Paul's about a rapture of the Church, in 1 Thess;4:14-17 and in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

You clearly miss the fact that what Paul, Jesus and the disciples posted pre-date any examples you hve posted Capiche?!

I'm still waiting to see where you go with your apostasy and falling away in the two epistles of Paul's about a rapture of the Church, in 1 Thess;4:14-17 and in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!


Quasar92

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3.

It is truly miraculous.

Martyr and Victorinus, acclaimed early church apologists, lived in the early post-apostolic period not long removed from that of Paul, with direct access to his original New Testament writings.

But they got Paul wrong on 2 Thess. 2:3.

Then along came Quasar92, some 2000 years later, reading from no known Bible version which agrees with him, and rejected by many within his own interpretive camp.

But he got Paul right on 2 Thess. 2:3.

There you have it, folks.

Miracles still do happen.

 

[Quasar92]

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3.

It is truly miraculous.

Martyr and Victorinus, acclaimed early church apologists, lived in the early post-apostolic period not long removed from that of Paul, with direct access to his original New Testament writings.

But they got Paul wrong on 2 Thess. 2:3.

Then along came Quasar92, some 2000 years later, reading from no known Bible version which agrees with him, and rejected by many within his own interpretive camp.

But he got Paul right on 2 Thess. 2:3.

There you have it, folks.

Miracles still do happen.

FYI, the first seven English published Bibles all use the word DEPARTURE, in 2 Thess.2:3, from the Greek and Latin words, APOSTASIA snd DISCESSIO, as I have posted previously, many times over, from he historical translation of it, as revealed below - again! All of them fully agreeing with what I have been posting, refuting your false claims that I stand alone with them.

>>>2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of verse 3. to accommodate the teachings of Augustine's Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.<<<


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

FYI, the first seven English published Bibles all use the word DEPARTURE, in 2 Thess.2:3, from the Greek and Latin words, APOSTASIA snd DISCESSIO, as I have posted previously, many times over, from he historical translation of it, as revealed below - again! All of them fully agreeing with what I have been posting, refuting your false claims that I stand alone with them.

>>>2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of verse 3. to accommodate the teachings of Augustine's Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.<<<


Quasar92

That's right. Keep on believing in yourself even when no one else can any longer bear to.

Here's another name to remove from your fraud list:

Frank L. Gaebelein

From his commentary (Expositor's Bible Commentary of which he was the General Editor from 1976-1985):

"We must suppose that St. Paul wrote to be understood, and was understood by those to whom he wrote; and if we follow him word by word, a sense will appear which is not really questionable except on extraneous grounds. What, then, does he say about the delaying of the Advent?

He says it will not come till the falling away, or apostasy, has come first.
...
...the "apostasy" is clearly a religious defection..."

 

[Quasar92]

That's right. Keep on believing in yourself even when no one else can any longer bear to.

Here's another name to remove from your fraud list:

Frank L. Gaebelein

From his commentary:

"We must suppose that St. Paul wrote to be understood, and was understood by those to whom he wrote; and if we follow him word by word, a sense will appear which is not really questionable except on extraneous grounds. What, then, does he say about the delaying of the Advent?

He says it will not come till the falling away, or apostasy, has come first.
...
...the "apostasy" is clearly a religious defection..."

First of all, you do not have a clue, as to others who believe as I do and cut out your false remarks, inferring there is no one else who believes as I do! Everyone who believes in the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, believe as I do! Capiche!

You contradict the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as such, calling them all liars! My posts of 161; 192 and 211 all refute your unqualified remarks denying the facts that expose them. Sources you quote as support for your views are all undated, invalidating them all. As I have told you many times over 2 Thes.2:3 translated the Greek word apostasia and the Latin word discessio, as DEPARTURE, or TO DEPART - for 13 centuries - BEFORE it was altered in 1611 A.D. by KJV scribes, to the word, APOSTASY! Most all publications following that date have used that mistranslation [as falling away or rebellion] ever since. Denying the facts and truths of what Paul was teaching.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

First of all, you do not have a clue, as to others who believe as I do and cut out your false remarks, inferring there is no one else who believes as I do! Everyone who believes in the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, believe as I do! Capiche!

You contradict the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as such, calling them all liars! My posts of 161; 192 and 211 all refute your unqualified remarks denying the facts that expose them. Sources you quote as support for your views are all undated, invalidating them all. As I have told you many times over 2 Thes.2:3 translated the Greek word apostasia and the Latin word discessio, as DEPARTURE, or TO DEPART - for 13 centuries - BEFORE it was altered in 1611 A.D. by KJV scribes, to the word, APOSTASY! Most all publications following that date have used that mistranslation [as falling away or rebellion] ever since. Denying the facts and truths of what Paul was teaching.


Quasar92

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3

Here's another name to remove from your list:

William Culbertson

I can find no evidence of any spoken or written commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:3 by Dr. Culbertson, let alone any evidence that he espoused apostasia as rapture.

Unless and until such evidence can be produced, the continued inclusion of the name of William Culbertson in your list of names...

...is a fraud.

 

[Quasar92]

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3

Here's another name to remove from your list:

William Culbertson

I can find no evidence of any spoken or written commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:3 by Dr. Culbertson, let alone any evidence that he espoused apostasia as rapture.

Unless and until such evidence can be produced, the continued inclusion of the name of William Culbertson in your list of names...

...is a fraud.

Get the following through your head!

Show me in any Scripturally supported way, the teachings of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:14-17 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8 contains a single particle inferring those teachings pertain to an apostasy, or a falling away, instead of what it is about, a rapture of the Church!

Dr.Ice is far from the only esteemed theologian who all believe in the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. Regardless of whether the Greek term, "apostasia,"is interpreted as "departure," or not! Below is a list of others who do, as well:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D, of the 1967 edition of the Scofield KJV version of the Bible.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

FROM ANOTHER SOURCE:

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure? – Grace thru faith

Either prove any of the men in the above list do not support the pre-trib rapture of the Church, teachings by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. you keep calling liars; and prove the 2 Thess.2:1-8 is about an apostasy, or falling away of the Church, instead of a rapture of the Church, Paul is teaching; or stop calling me and others frauds, and your pointless arguing about it, in attempting to alter the intended interpretation of the passage!


Quasasr92

 

[jgr]

.

 

[jgr]

Get the following through your head!

Show me in any Scripturally supported way, the teachings of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:14-17 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8 contains a single particle inferring those teachings pertain to an apostasy, or a falling away, instead of what it is about, a rapture of the Church!

Dr.Ice is far from the only esteemed theologian who all believe in the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. Regardless of whether the Greek term, "apostasia,"is interpreted as "departure," or not! Below is a list of others who do, as well:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D, of the 1967 edition of the Scofield KJV version of the Bible.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

FROM ANOTHER SOURCE:

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure? – Grace thru faith

Either prove any of the men in the above list do not support the pre-trib rapture of the Church, teachings by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. you keep calling liars; and prove the 2 Thess.2:1-8 is about an apostasy, or falling away of the Church, instead of a rapture of the Church, Paul is teaching; or stop calling me and others frauds, and your pointless arguing about it, in attempting to alter the intended interpretation of the passage!


Quasasr92

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3

Hmm...I see that you haven't removed any names yet. It appears that you still don't understand the meaning of "fraud". That's OK; there are more opportunities to come.

Here's another name to remove from your list:

Wilbur M. Smith


The Minister and the Word of God

Dr. Wilbur M. Smith

The Campbell Morgan Memorial Bible Lectureship, No. 4
Wedneday, July 2nd, 1952

Westminster Chapel, Buckingham Gate, London, S.W.1.
[Reproduced by permission]
[p.3]

"...All of these movements may be summed up in the word Paul uses of that fearful condition to appear at the end of the age, the Apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2. 3)."


No rapture there. Only apostasy.
The continued inclusion of the name of Wilbur M. Smith in your list of names is a further fraud.

 

[Quasar92]

]

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3

Hmm...I see that you haven't removed any names yet. It appears that you still don't understand the meaning of "fraud". That's OK; there are more opportunities to come.

Here's another name to remove from your list:

Wilbur M. Smith


The Minister and the Word of God

Dr. Wilbur M. Smith

The Campbell Morgan Memorial Bible Lectureship, No. 4
Wedneday, July 2nd, 1952

Westminster Chapel, Buckingham Gate, London, S.W.1.
[Reproduced by permission]
[p.3]

"...All of these movements may be summed up in the word Paul uses of that fearful condition to appear at the end of the age, the Apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2. 3)."


No rapture there. Only apostasy.
The continued inclusion of the name of Wilbur M. Smith in your list of names is a further fraud.

You are calling me a liar and bearing false witness about others I have previously posted and have proven nothing in your above posts. Every man on the list I have posted, fully endorse the pre-trib rapture of the Church [ REGARDLESS - of wheter the Greek word "apostasia" is translated as DEPARTURE of APOSTASY. Furthermore, you are unable to prove otherwise!

None of the name on the list of eteemed theologians I posted have been "removed." mor will they ever be removed from those who fully endorse the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.

I'm still waiting for your claims, the epistles of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:14-17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8, mean an apostasy or a falling away of the Church, instead of the proper and intended interpretation he was teaching, the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church,

What's the problem it is taking you so long to produce it?


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

]


You are calling me a liar and bearing false witness about others I have previously posted and have proven nothing in your above posts. Every man on the list I have posted, fully endorse the pre-trib rapture of the Church [ REGARDLESS - of wheter the Greek word "apostasia" is translated as DEPARTURE of APOSTASY. Furthermore, you are unable to prove otherwise!

None of the name on the list of eteemed theologians I posted have been "removed." mor will they ever be removed from those who fully endorse the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.

I'm still waiting for your claims, the epistles of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:14-17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8, mean an apostasy or a falling away of the Church, instead of the proper and intended interpretation he was teaching, the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church,

What's the problem it is taking you so long to produce it?


Quasar92

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3

Here's another name to remove from your list:

C.I. Scofield


From the Scofield Reference Bible Commentary:

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:
...
(2) the apostasy of the professing church...
...


No rapture there. Only falling away -- apostasy.
The continued inclusion of the name of C.I. Scofield in your list of names is a further fraud.

 

[Quasar92]

Re. 2 Thess. 2:3

Here's another name to remove from your list:

C.I. Scofield


From the Scofield Reference Bible Commentary:

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:
...
(2) the apostasy of the professing church...
...


No rapture there. Only falling away -- apostasy.
The continued inclusion of the name of C.I. Scofield in your list of names is a further fraud.

MY POST #215 AND #218 REFUTE YOU AND PROVIDES THE REASONS WHY.

The following is a four post link about the Biblical teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you continue to make liars of with futile effort to alter the meaning of what they teach.

Your attempt to make Jesus teachings in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and Paul's teachings in 1 Thess.4:14-17 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8, into an apostasy, or a falling away of the Church, by trying to alter the original historical translation of the Greek word, apostasia, from DEPARTURE or TO DEPART, into apostasy [that Jerome translated into the Latin word, discessio, which also means DEPARTURE or TO DEPART]; will not fly and is a complete failure.

The first post of the four, in the following link, thoroughly explains why, in the translation history portion of it.

Your attempt to take names of my listings of esteemed theologians from most every walk of Christian teaching [listed in the fourth post of the link below, who all fully endorse the pre-trib rapture of the Chyurch] because of their use of the words apostasy, or falling away when reference was made to 2 Thess.2:3, is a sorry crutch you are using, when that is what the Scriptures they used had been altered into saying, since the 17th century. What do you expect them to say? The alteration in verse 3 had not been exposed until many years later! Which is no argument at all, in attempting to alter Paul's teachings about the rapture of the Church into an apostasy of the Church. century.

Furthermore, the translation of apostasia into what Paul intended it to mean, as DEPARTURE, in 2 Thess.2:3, he reinforced harmoniously in verse 7, with the Church being TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.


https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

You remain refuted!


Quasar92