Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

[DogmaHunter]

How are they not different subjects? Questions regarding verification of data, and questions regarding sources and reliability of data are clearly two different subjects to me.

Right out the gates, claims that are verifiable have advantage over those that aren't.

In fact, claims that aren't verifiable are pretty much useless.

My personal experience makes me lean against forced vaccinations, which includes personal experiences with vaccines taken by myself, and from hearsay testimony from trusted family and friends; from personal experiences regarding human behavior and tendencies, and how that relates to hearsay evidence regarding bribery involved with vaccines, etc.

All of which means nothing in the face of actual verifiable data showing that vaccination works.
Unless you can share actual verifiable data which gives credence to these "personal experiences" and "hearsay" anecdotes.

 

[ananda]

Right out the gates, claims that are verifiable have advantage over those that aren't. In fact, claims that aren't verifiable are pretty much useless.

I don't disagree with that.

All of which means nothing in the face of actual verifiable data showing that vaccination works. Unless you can share actual verifiable data which gives credence to these "personal experiences" and "hearsay" anecdotes.

I understand that my personally verified experiences mean nothing to you, as you have different personally verified experiences.

 

[Larniavc]

The success of the City of Leicester, England was remarkable in reducing smallpox mortality substantially compared to the rest of England and other countries by abandoning vaccination between 1882 and 1908. I love history.

It did not abandon vaccination during that time. It practiced notification, isolation, quarantine, disinfection AND vaccinations.

Cambridge Medical Journals
Med Hist. 1980 Jul; 24(3): 315–332. (p323 paragraph 1)
PMCID: PMC1082657

I love history.

 

[Zoii]

Safety of Vaccines Used for Routine Immunization of US Children: A Systematic Review
Margaret A. Maglione, Lopamudra Das, Laura Raaen, Alexandria Smith, RamyaChari, Sydne Newberry, Roberta Shanman, Tanja Perry, Matthew Bidwell Goetz, Courtney Gidengil
Pediatrics Aug 2014, 134 (2) 325-337

This citation takes you to a Systematic Review of Vaccines versus Adverse Effects. An adverse effect might be - can I get autism?, can I get the actual disease?, can I have an allergic reaction? This systematic review combined 64 large studies making it truly a comprehensive and very powerful study from a statistical reliability perspective. I would prefer you to read it for yourself and me not influence – but for those who may not be able to access the research paper it looked at most types of vaccines and every type of possible adverse outcome

An example within the results – no association between autism and Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccination.

That said it clearly states there are incidences of adverse events that can and do exist in some groups and they are well defined though they are rare. The Systematic Review highlights that there are high risk groups which include the immunodeficient. This is why – as with any medication, it is prescribed after a clinical assessment to ensure such risks are eliminated or reduced.

Does that mean Vaccines are a problem? – the honest answer is both Yes and No in the same sense that administering a natural medicine or eating food is a problem. For around 2 in 100 000 of the population, they experience adverse side effects eg fever and headaches and even more rarely anaphylaxis. There are also extreme risk groups and these are predominantly the immunodeficient.

But no matter what medication we take, or food we eat, or natural remedy we take, there will be a proportion of the population that are allergic to it and the rate of that reaction becomes higher and more severe in certain cohorts.

Part of the responsibility of vaccine manufacturers and the Centre for Disease Control, is to monitor adverse reactions and long-term effects. This is particular so to continually evolve the products within vaccines to minimise adverse events.

I will talk more on the topic in another post

 

[Nithavela]

Now, if there is a troll here, it is the one with only 89 posts to his name - not me with 12,000+ posts.

I don't know, man. I'm a troll, and I have more posts than you.

 

[Humble me Lord]

Ok, Ok, so

A measle walks into a bar, and the bartender says, "Shots for everyone!"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't know, man. I'm a troll, and I have more posts than you.

Hey! Comedian troll! hahaha ........
See if you can find out how many doctors knew what caused aut&&&& already in 1945. They also would not let their families get autism, since they knew.

It is 'old news' , of course, and may already be censored off the internet, but
as they say
it's worth A SHOT ...>! ! (NOT)

 

[pat34lee]

Well Pat I'm sure the folks peddling vitamins & the anti-vaxxer stuff love saying that but the facts sure don't show that to be so.

Actually, it does. Vaccines don't heal. Vitamins and
clean food and water and sanitation restore health.

Vitamin A for treating measles in children. - PubMed - NCBI
Vitamin supplements reduce deaths caused by measles and diarrhea, study finds

From the World Health Organization:
"Improved socioeconomic conditions have undoubtedly had an indirect impact on disease. Better nutrition, not to mention the development of antibiotics and other treatments, have increased survival rates among the sick; less crowded living conditions have reduced disease transmission; and lower birth rates have decreased the number of susceptible household contacts. "

Then they go on to say why we still need vaccines.

 

[Go Braves]

Actually, it does. Vaccines don't heal. Vitamins and
clean food and water and sanitation restore health.

Actually Pat, your sources back up what I said. Vaccines help to prevent folks from actually getting the diseases.

Let's look at this one:

Vitamin A for treating measles in children. - PubMed - NCBI

BACKGROUND:
Measles is a leading cause of childhood morbidity and mortality. Vitamin A deficiency is a recognised risk factor for severe measles. The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends administration of an oral dose of 200,000 IU (or 100,000 IU in infants) of vitamin A per day for two days to children with measles in areas where vitamin A deficiency may be present.

REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS:
Although we did not find evidence that a single dose of 200,000 IU of vitamin A per day was associated with reduced mortality among children with measles, there was evidence that the same dose given for two days was associated with a reduced risk of overall mortality and pneumonia specific mortality. The effect was greater in children under the age of two years. There were no trials that compared a single dose with two doses, although the precision of the estimates of trials that used a single dose were similar to the trials that used two doses.

Pat, your source explains how measles is a leading cause of kids dying in this world. It's a serious disease. Your source doesn't say a word about vitamins helping to prevent kids from getting measles. It
found that MASSIVE amounts of Vitamin A given for 2 days can help to reduce the risk of kids from dying from the measles, but not that it's a cure to stop all kids with the measles from dying from it. It's also not all that realistic to expect that a kid with the measles is going to get lickety split medical attn. to get the massive amount of vitamin A. It's not the sort of amount you just pick up at Target, Pat. It's a huge amount, so much that there's also the risk of acute toxicity from that much vitamin A that fast. Now sure, that risk is preferable to an innocent child dying from the measles, but you know what's a whole lot more preferable? The kid not getting the measles in the 1st place! Vaccines are what prevent that from happening, Pat. Not vitamins.

Now let's look at your 2nd source, Pat.

Vitamin supplements reduce deaths caused by measles and diarrhea, study finds
Vitamin A supplements are still an effective way to reduce childhood death and disease. A new study strongly endorses the continuation of vitamin A supplementation programs, which reduce the incidence of measles and diarrhea and ultimately save lives.

Well Pat, this source doesn't show that vitamins cure measles or prevent them, either. Just as with the other source it showed that vitamin A can help to reduce, but not prevent, kids dying from the measles. Neither of your sources showed that kids with measles wouldn't still suffer as all heck from them, or that there wouldn't be any permanent problems on account of them. Sure, vitamin A is important. I'm glad that modern science has helped with that with things like that GMO golden rice with Vitamin A. Even gladder that's there's vaccines to help prevent kids from getting diseases in the 1st place.

From the World Health Organization:
"Improved socioeconomic conditions have undoubtedly had an indirect impact on disease. Better nutrition, not to mention the development of antibiotics and other treatments, have increased survival rates among the sick; less crowded living conditions have reduced disease transmission; and lower birth rates have decreased the number of susceptible household contacts. "

Then they go on to say why we still need vaccines.

Well yeah, Pat. I don't think any of the folks participating in this talk here weren't already fully aware that improved socioeconomic conditions have an impact on disease. We all know that. Of course the WHO goes on to explain why we still need vaccines, on account of how of course they're still needed. Kids from rich families, in rich countries have suffered from diseases like measles too.

eta - Googled what you posted from WHO, on account of how I thought it would be good to read more from this source you picked. Read the #1 misconception, Pat & Saricharity!

WHO | Six common misconceptions about immunization

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="pat34lee, post: 72425400, member: 292469"]Actually, it does. Vaccines don't heal. Vitamins and
clean food and water and sanitation restore health.

Vitamin A for treating measles in children. - PubMed - NCBI
Vitamin supplements reduce deaths caused by measles and diarrhea, study finds

From the World Health Organization:
"Improved socioeconomic conditions have undoubtedly had an indirect impact on disease. Better nutrition, not to mention the development of antibiotics and other treatments, have increased survival rates among the sick; less crowded living conditions have reduced disease transmission; and lower birth rates have decreased the number of susceptible household contacts. "

Then they go on to say why we still need vaccines.[/QUOTE
Yes, JESUS always cleaned the whole person - spirit, heart, mind, soul, body -
whenever HE heals .....
mankind under a different ruler does things differently and opposed to Jesus all the time.

 

[Larniavc]

Well Pat,

Rofl

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Actually Pat, your sources back up what I said. Vaccines help to prevent folks from actually getting the diseases.

Sorry, that is not a good history of how diseases were first eliminated.

IF you can find the example any more online, look up how SEVERE CONTAGIOUS DISEASES were wiped out WITHOUT ANY drugs to finish the panama canal. IT IS WONDERFUL and applies likewise to all others.

 

[Larniavc]

Sorry, that is not a good history of how diseases were first eliminated.

IF you can find the example any more online, look up how SEVERE CONTAGIOUS DISEASES were wiped out WITHOUT ANY drugs to finish the panama canal. IT IS WONDERFUL and applies likewise to all others.

And fish wear balloons like people?

 

[pat34lee]

How Plumbing (Not Vaccines) Eradicated Disease

I see a third world plague coming to California due to
the amount of fecal matter and waste needles being
dumped into the streets by the homeless and illegal
aliens. Then again, it's already happening, and they
just aren't widely reporting it. Yet.
California declares state of emergency over deadly hepatitis A outbreak

Sign of the times:
San Francisco poop map: real thing or a rumor?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

plague coming to California due to
the amount of fecal matter

Various such matter and worse is being used 'legally'? on farmer's crop's soil across the usa --- a guarantee of future plagues , (and cause of past plagues) , beyond anything seen before ......

 

[Saricharity]

It's a good thing I'm not anti-vax. It seems to be synonymous with the f-word these days. I would more call myself pro-informed choice. The things I leave behind are for the honest seeker who may have a concern about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Many other countries outside of the US and Canada are not in complete agreement about some vaccines. Take the Uk for example. They do not vaccinate for chicken pox. If it is so deadly like some say in the US, why do they believe it is for the most part is a mild illness? The very things they worry about has become true...shingles is on the rise and adults are getting chicken pox later in life.

Many thinsg said to me in rebuttal actually haven't even touched on anything I said. I stated facts.

I can reinterate a few.

The current vaccine schedule has never been proven to be safe in a large , long term clinical trials. While they may be licienced individually, their safety has nevr been proven in a real world way in which the vaccines are given...multiple vaccines at once. This doesn't concern you?

The impact of so many neurological disorders on society is catastrophic. Is this normal to you? 30 years ago ADD, life threatening allergies, juvenile diabetes were virtually non-existent...today these things are growing at an alarming rate. Why?

vaccines contain Neurotoxins... Mercury is the most toxic substance known that is not radioactive. There is no evidence that injected Mercury is safe in any amount.

Aluminum is used as an adjuvant. The neurotoxicity of aluminum is well documented. The amount used in vaccines regularly exceeds the maximum amount permitted by the FDA. The science is sound. Just because you didn't like my link doesn't make it any less accurate and good science. The authors make a very good point proven by what was said regarding an AD on their site. Btw Suzanne Humphries is only considered a quack by people who are afraid to go up against her sound science. I don't agree with everything she says but her science is sound.

I certainly shouldn't bring up Autism....I shudder to see the replies that will be flung at me. It affects 1 in 36 children now but that's just a coincidence.

Oh wait, let mention Andy Wakefield and watch the Sharks attack spewing inaccuracies about him.

I'm certainly glad I'm not an anti-Vaxxer. That would make me a crazy, tin-cap wearing nutbar, not to mention a conspiracy theorist. Oh, and every scientific study I've read is cherry-picked, and I have congnitive dissonance.

Everyone should do their own research. I promise you once you start, you will be completely fascinated by what you learn.

You will never be able to turn you head away.
Knowledge is power.
Power is peace of mind.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Everyone should do their own research. I promise you once you start, you will be completely fascinated by what you learn.

You will never be able to turn you head away.

Oh, many many have turned their head away - looked the other way, denied the truth,
for what ?
Sometimes for money.
Sometimes just not to make waves (until their own child dies or is disabled)...
Peer pressure is very very powerful....
remember no one but King David , when he was not yet King,
was willing to go against Goliath.

"do their own research" is as written in the BIBLE - LOVE TRUTH, SEEK THE TRUTH and keep seeking the TRUTH (don't give up ! ) .....

Less than 1 out of 10 do their own research - even as simple as internet searches and at the library for a few hours.
They can't (or won't ) pay the price ,
they're not willing to pay the price
if they should happen to discover the truth. (so they don't look for it)

Instead, they pay another way, much more sad.

 

[Zoii]

I would appeal to anyone reading threads to simply ignore what any of us has to say. No-one here is an expert. @Saricharity although espousing to be an expert shows significant weakness in either presenting or analysing scientific papers.

If you have a car that's broken down who do you go to - a qualified mechanic or to someone with absolutely no background in that area and a deficit in mechanical theory. The choice is obvious.

I apply the same to myself. To anyone here including @Saricharity if you have an argument then place your double-blinded control research papers down for the reader to analyse. From what Ive seen of comments on scientific papers there is a demonstrated significant weakness in the very basics of research analysis.

Again I appeal to the reader to consult longitudinal studies with large population sizes. Better still to consult systematic reviews.

I did note that @Saricharity had posted a link to an alternative therapy site that had some papers that were largely just opinion pieces (of course these are rubbish - in a topic like this we are not interested in an opinion just the raw facts), but did have some links to some actual research. A lesson for readers of research is not to extrapolate beyond the results. Now unlike @Saricharity I actually took time to read papers. Most papers were on the topic of aluminium in some vaccine products. The supposition put by saricharity is that the results can be interpreted as being catastrophic neurologically for vaccine recipients - so what did those papers say??

Well most were trials within animals. One for example was a trial within mice and demonstrated in a very small mice population cognitive deterioration when administered aluminium dosages. The danger is to "ah huh - Aluminium of any concentration must be causing neurological harm to humans" - NO - All you can say is that their is the possibility of cognitive deterioration in a small mice population. To extrapolate that to humans then a human trial needs to be conducted longitudinally thats double-blinded and controlled. Is that happening = YES. In a previous post I posted a systematic review of a significant number of vaccines against adverse affects.

In addition there are already systematic reviews (SRs) on aluminium - SRs combine numerous trials so that you enlarge the population sample and make the p value lower (that means the probability of it being true and accurate is higher).

But is @Saricharity wrong to be concerned about any product - No we all should be. Its the responsibility of the Centre for Disease Control to monitor longitudinally all of these products. Its up to you and me FOR ANY MEDICATION OR NATURAL THERAPY PRODUCT to report to your doctor adverse effects. That way if we note trends that saricharity is suggesting may be of concern, then those added products in vaccines can be evolved and improved.

No matter where you sit on the debate, we all want to be safe and so the best way to be informed is to read the research for yourself. Do not listen to opinion pieces here or anywhere else. True double blinded longitudinal research is the only credible source. if you cant or dont want to access those papers consult your doctor who is the only credible source of information; not your local natural therapy site with unqualified bloggers emitting opinions that are not evidence based in any way.

 

[Go Braves]

It's a good thing I'm not anti-vax. It seems to be synonymous with the f-word these days. I would more call myself pro-informed choice. The things I leave behind are for the honest seeker who may have a concern about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Many other countries outside of the US and Canada are not in complete agreement about some vaccines. Take the Uk for example. They do not vaccinate for chicken pox. If it is so deadly like some say in the US, why do they believe it is for the most part is a mild illness? The very things they worry about has become true...shingles is on the rise and adults are getting chicken pox later in life.

Well you sound like an anti-vaxxer & you promote anti-vaxxers so it's not much of a surprise that folks assume you are one too. This reads more like you're trying to be funny & satirize anti-vaxxers than being serious, on account of how you've failed to give a single credible source.

Most countries aren't in complete agreement with most things but they're pretty much in sync about vaccinations. There's a lot of countries that now require vaccinations. Others that have laws about it in order to attend school.

Chicken pox isn't deadly for most folks but it's caused serious problems for some. A gal on here has talked about how awful it was for her, ruined her health for life. Have you ever had shingles, or known anybody who has? It's horrible. Better to prevent it.

Many thinsg said to me in rebuttal actually haven't even touched on anything I said. I stated facts.

No, you wrote a really arrogant post that was flat-out wrong & folks gave sources to you proving that you were wrong. I directly addressed what you wrote. I & other folks asked you for your sources but instead of giving them, which is the sensible thing anybody who'd done honest research would be glad to do, you got into a huff.

The current vaccine schedule has never been proven to be safe in a large , long term clinical trials. While they may be licienced individually, their safety has nevr been proven in a real world way in which the vaccines are given...multiple vaccines at once. This doesn't concern you?

Well if it was actually true it would concern me, but it's not.

The impact of so many neurological disorders on society is catastrophic. Is this normal to you? 30 years ago ADD, life threatening allergies, juvenile diabetes were virtually non-existent...today these things are growing at an alarming rate. Why?

Well instead of asking why, why don't you do some REAL research to find out the answer? Tip - it's not on account of vaccines.

vaccines contain Neurotoxins... Mercury is the most toxic substance known that is not radioactive. There is no evidence that injected Mercury is safe in any amount.

Aluminum is used as an adjuvant. The neurotoxicity of aluminum is well documented. The amount used in vaccines regularly exceeds the maximum amount permitted by the FDA. The science is sound. Just because you didn't like my link doesn't make it any less accurate and good science. The authors make a very good point proven by what was said regarding an AD on their site. Btw Suzanne Humphries is only considered a quack by people who are afraid to go up against her sound science. I don't agree with everything she says but her science is sound.

Well most childhood vaccines in the US don't contain mercury anymore & haven't in a long time. If you'd really done your research you'd know that fact.

You realize there's aluminum in food, right? Lol.
Vaccine Ingredients - Aluminum | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia


So show us any peer-reviewed papers Suzanne Humphries has done on vaccines.

I certainly shouldn't bring up Autism....I shudder to see the replies that will be flung at me. It affects 1 in 36 children now but that's just a coincidence.

Well if you decide to bring that up, Saricharity, post it in the Conspiracy Theories section.

Oh wait, let mention Andy Wakefield and watch the Sharks attack spewing inaccuracies about him.

The inaccuracies he spewed out have caused messes to be cleaned up for the past 2 decades. I don't feel the least bit sorry for that charlatan.

I'm certainly glad I'm not an anti-Vaxxer. That would make me a crazy, tin-cap wearing nutbar, not to mention a conspiracy theorist. Oh, and every scientific study I've read is cherry-picked, and I have congnitive dissonance.

So you're not an anti-vaxxer, you just play one on the internet?

Everyone should do their own research. I promise you once you start, you will be completely fascinated by what you learn.

You will never be able to turn you head away.
Knowledge is power.
Power is peace of mind.

Well then, Saricharity, follow your own advice. Nothing you've written has shown that you've done a lick of real research, just that you've read a lot of anti-vaxxer blogs.

 

[Zoii]

Well you sound like an anti-vaxxer & you promote anti-vaxxers so it's not much of a surprise that folks assume you are one too. This reads more like you're trying to be funny & satirize anti-vaxxers than being serious, on account of how you've failed to give a single credible source.

Most countries aren't in complete agreement with most things but they're pretty much in sync about vaccinations. There's a lot of countries that now require vaccinations. Others that have laws about it in order to attend school.

Chicken pox isn't deadly for most folks but it's caused serious problems for some. A gal on here has talked about how awful it was for her, ruined her health for life. Have you ever had shingles, or known anybody who has? It's horrible. Better to prevent it.



No, you wrote a really arrogant post that was flat-out wrong & folks gave sources to you proving that you were wrong. I directly addressed what you wrote. I & other folks asked you for your sources but instead of giving them, which is the sensible thing anybody who'd done honest research would be glad to do, you got into a huff.



Well if it was actually true it would concern me, but it's not.



Well instead of asking why, why don't you do some REAL research to find out the answer? Tip - it's not on account of vaccines.



Well most childhood vaccines in the US don't contain mercury anymore & haven't in a long time. If you'd really done your research you'd know that fact.

You realize there's aluminum in food, right? Lol.

So show us any peer-reviewed papers Suzanne Humphries has done on vaccines.



Well if you decide to bring that up, Saricharity, post it in the Conspiracy Theories section.



The inaccuracies he spewed out have caused messes to be cleaned up for the past 2 decades. I don't feel the least bit sorry for that charlatan.



So you're not an anti-vaxxer, but you just play one on the internet?




Well then, Saricharity, follow your own advice. Nothing you've written has shown that you've done a lick of real research, just that you've read a lot of anti-vaxxer blogs.

I have no problems acknowledging real concerns from all of us as consumers. What I do not like is the spreading of misinformation. I am particularly disturbed by someone such as @Saricharity who appears to have such poor strengths at analysing research. Ive seen her refer to several articles and then extrapolate well beyond the reported results. Normally I wouldn't care what anyone writes here on CF. But in a topic such as this when someone is pretending to be informed and misinforming on critical societal issues, then i take exception.

I shall start dropping systematic reviews for readers to make their own judgements as the wilful misinformation that people like @Saricharity with zero background in these matters, is harmful to at risk groups particularly neonates, in-uterine fetuses, the elderly, and the immunodeficient.


I need to say again to any reading/watching - Its not that vaccines are free from adverse events - They do but they are (depending on the vaccine) in the order of 2:100 000. I also need to highlight that foods such as peanuts, fish and natural therapy products have similar rates of adverse events.