Is the "Real Presence" [catholic Holy Communion" Really REAL?

[Mountainmike]

You would know them had you studied them.

How much clearer can justin martyr be?
"the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word .. IS the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" First apology, 66

How much clearer can ignatius be to the smyrneans saying the eucharist is only valid if performed by a bishop or appointee?

Start there. Such references are everywhere in the early fathers.




And until you have studied early fathers AND the catholic church, please stop commenting on the extent to which the catholic church follows the early church. You clearly know nothing about it, except the anticatholic mythbook

I would also urge you to consider why it is that ALL the references to the eucharist refer to body, blood , flesh - Including apostle Paul . NONE say that the eucharist is just a symbol. Nor was that what the early church believed, and it requires exegetical cartwheels to pretend that the eucharist is other than our Lord intended us to accept it is body, blood , flesh.

Also study the reality of how faith was passed down, paradosis, tradition. The early church was certainly NOT sola scriptura - faith was passed by true meaning of tradition - "stay true to the traditions we taught you by word of mouth" Because that was the means of handing on faith. ( and as Paul says, and did, by letter)

It is fascinating that the original church now catholic church uses the literal translations of scripture in almost all cases and always has : eg real body and blood in the eucharist, Peter IS the rock, the woman of revelations 12 is indeed Mary etc etc....

And the so called sola scriptura adherents are those that twist scripture in knots trying to avoid all the obvious meanings! And to a large extent the sola scriptura adherents ignore scripture completely, just cherry picking a verse here and there to ignore all other references to a subject which disagree with them

But then scripture is not, nor does it purport to be a manual of Christian practice - nor does it profess to be the sole or prime truth. Indeed it says it is not ! it says "the pillar of truth is the church" in order to recognise the authority Christ gave to "bind and loose" and the fact that the physical church of apostolic succession was the mechanism and vehicle of truth Christ chose to hand on the faith.

As someone who started in protestant then evangelical, before studing fathers and arriving at Rome, I can say from experience that the catholic church is the most scriptural of all. Indeed..the mass liturgy and worship is wall to wall scripture.

Post citations of the ECF'S, there aren't ant.

 

[Truth7t7]

You would know them had you studied them.

I gave you ignatius to smyrneans. Start there.

And until you have studied early fathers AND the catholic church, please stop commenting on the extent to which the catholic church follows the early church. You clearly know nothing about it, except the anticatholic mythbook

I would also urge you to consider why it is that ALL the references to the eucharist refer to body, blood , flesh - Including apostle Paul . NONE say that the eucharist is just a symbol. Nor was that what the early church believed

Also study the reality of how faith was passed down, paradosis, tradition. The early church was certainly NOT sola scriptura - faith was passed by true meaning of tradition. ( and as Paul says, by letter)

All your time spent claiming the ECF taught of actual flesh and blood in the sacrament?

Post a citation, im confident there arent any.

 

[Mountainmike]

You cannot read then: READ my post above.

That citation from Justin Martyr forms part of orthodox liturgy!

And I should not have to post citations. You claimed to have read the early fathers.

You laugh at catholic doctrine whilst knowing nothing about it, the early church or the early fathers writings.

Why do you disregard hundreds of references in scripture and early fathers, stating the eucharist is the body, blood, flesh?

All your time spent claiming the ECF taught of actual flesh and blood in the sacrament?

Post a citation, im confident there arent any.

 

[prodromos]

You cannot read then: READ my post above.

That citation from Justin Martyr forms part of orthodox liturgy!

And I should not have to post citations. You claimed to have read the early fathers.

You laugh at catholic doctrine whilst knowing nothing about it, the early church or the early fathers writings.

Why do you disregard hundreds of references in scripture and early fathers, stating the eucharist is the body, blood, flesh?

He just assumes that if they also refer to the Eucharist as bread and wine, that it therefore MUST BE SYMBOLIC!!!!!!.
As long as he holds to that mindset, he is deaf to any literal understanding. He has seen many citations and his only response is to yell "100% symbolic", as if that somehow makes it so.

 

[Truth7t7]

You cannot read then: READ my post above.

That citation from Justin Martyr forms part of orthodox liturgy!

And I should not have to post citations. You claimed to have read the early fathers.

You laugh at catholic doctrine whilst knowing nothing about it, the early church or the early fathers writings.

Why do you disregard hundreds of references in scripture and early fathers, stating the eucharist is the body, blood, flesh?

Post the citations, im waiting.

 

[prodromos]

Post the citations, im waiting.

No you're not. You're just speaking figuratively.

 

[Truth7t7]

He just assumes that if they also refer to the Eucharist as bread and wine, that it therefore MUST BE SYMBOLIC!!!!!!.
As long as he holds to that mindset, he is deaf to any literal understanding. He has seen many citations and his only response is to yell "100% symbolic", as if that somehow makes it so.

Post a citation, im waiting.

 

[Truth7t7]

No you're not. You're just speaking figuratively.

Citations to support your claims?

No ECF taught the sacrament was the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, not a one!

As Albion stated "Transubstantiation", a 13th century invention of the Roman Catholic church.

 

[prodromos]

Citations to support your claims?

No ECF taught the sacrament was the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, not a one!

As Albion stated "Transubstantiation", a 13th century invention of the Roman Catholic church.

We're not talking about transubstantiation. We're talking about real presence.

 

[Truth7t7]

We're not talking about transubstantiation. We're talking about real presence.

Looks like the claim of real presence to me.

Google Dictionary:

tran·sub·stan·ti·a·tion
ˌtran(t)səbˌstan(t)SHēˈāSH(ə)n/
noun
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY

1. (especially in the Roman Catholic Church) the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining.

 

[Mountainmike]

Citations to support your claims?

No ECF taught the sacrament was the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, not a one!

As Albion stated "Transubstantiation", a 13th century invention of the Roman Catholic church.

You dont understand citations then.
Stating Justin Martyr First apology 66 and the text contained therein you can see in my post as used in orthodox liturgy even IS a citation.

So A growing list of things truth7t7 has proven he/she knows nothing about.
1/ Scriptural references to body and blood
2/ Early church practice
3/ Early church father writings eg Justin Martyr
4/ The catholic church ( for the first millenium there was only one..till the divergence of eastern)
5/ Now the meaning of citation.
Apart from which ALL of the above can be studied by truth7t7 without anyones help - just searching!

Since you have done none of us the courtesy of actually replying to anything we have said which arguments have rebutted yours 10 times over, there is little point in continuing discussion. Just a scratched record that repeats the word citation without seemingly even understanding what that means!

So the challenge on which you win or lose.
I can easily produce 5 scriptural (or first church father) references to the eucharist being stated the "body" "blood" or "flesh" of our lord. At a push I can give you many more.

You give me 5 that say eucharist (or cup of blessing, broken bread , whatever) is symbolic.
Failing to state 5 means you lost the argument! Even if you state 5 you still lose on numbers!

You will struggle even to find ONE passage that you can twist far enough to pretend the eucharist is symbolic!

 

[Truth7t7]

You dont understand citations then.
Stating Justin Martyr First apology 66 and the text contained therein you can see in my post as used in orthodox liturgy even IS a citation.

So A growing list of things truth7t7 has proven he/she knows nothing about.
1/ Scriptural references to body and blood
2/ Early church practice
3/ Early church father writings eg Justin Martyr
4/ The catholic church ( for the first millenium there was only one..till the divergence of eastern)
5/ Now the meaning of citation.
Apart from which ALL of the above can be studied by truth7t7 without anyones help - just searching!

Since you have done none of us the courtesy of actually replying to anything we have said which arguments have rebutted yours 10 times over, there is little point in continuing discussion. Just a scratched record that repeats the word citation without seemingly even understanding what that means!

So the challenge on which you win or lose.
I can easily produce 5 scriptural (or first church father) references to the eucharist being stated the "body" "blood" or "flesh" of our lord. At a push I can give you many more.

You give me 5 that say eucharist (or cup of blessing, broken bread , whatever) is symbolic.
Failing to state 5 means you lost the argument! Even if you state 5 you still lose on numbers!

You will struggle even to find ONE passage that you can twist far enough to pretend the eucharist is symbolic!

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Still waiting for your citation Mike, no needle in the hay stack, the Roman Catholic doctrine is a false teachig.

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

 

[Mountainmike]

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

You cannot read clearly.

I gave you the relevant text.
Justin Martyr said
"the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word .. IS the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" First apology, 66

Not debateable what he meant. And that is certainly Not symbolic

Stop misleading others.

And you still do not even one verse or statement supporting symbolic - I have dozens that do. I asked you for just 5 to support you, you cannot give me one!


Apostle Paul believed and said
The cup of blessing we drink is sharing the blood of Christ.

You would need to strain at gnats to make that symbolic!

Thats the problem with sola scriptura people. They abuse scripture to mean what they want it to mean, and ignore what it actually says! They cherry pick verses out of context then ignore the verses that prove them wrong.

The most literal interpretations of scripture are used by the catholic church!
In this case real body and blood.
Which is exactly what the apostles taught.
Which is why the early church did it.
Which is why the early fathers wrote it.

Only since mediaeval times have some like you gone off the rails with this symbolic nonsense/

Anyway. SInce you seem to leave your oppinion unaltered by scripture or facts, you are welcome to it. Just dont pretend the catholic church has the same problem you do of reading what is written. It does what scripture says.

 

[Truth7t7]

You cannot read clearly.

I gave you the relevant text.
Justin Martyr said
"the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word .. IS the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" First apology, 66

Not debateable what he meant. And that is certainly Not symbolic

Stop misleading others.

And you still do not even one verse or statement supporting symbolic - I have dozens that do. I asked you for just 5 to support you, you cannot give me one!


Apostle Paul believed and said
The cup of blessing we drink is sharing the blood of Christ.

You would need to strain at gnats to make that symbolic!

Thats the problem with sola scriptura people. They abuse scripture to mean what they want it to mean, and ignore what it actually says! They cherry pick verses out of context then ignore the verses that prove them wrong.

The most literal interpretations of scripture are used by the catholic church!
In this case real body and blood.
Which is exactly what the apostles taught.
Which is why the early church did it.
Which is why the early fathers wrote it.

Only since mediaeval times have some like you gone off the rails with this symbolic nonsense/

Anyway. SInce you seem to leave your oppinion unaltered by scripture or facts, you are welcome to it. Just dont pretend the catholic church has the same problem you do of reading what is written. It does what scripture says.

Mike thats exactly how the sacrament is handeled in the churches I attend.

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Bread, Wine, Water

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Looks like the claim of real presence to me.

Google Dictionary:

tran·sub·stan·ti·a·tion
ˌtran(t)səbˌstan(t)SHēˈāSH(ə)n/
noun
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY

1. (especially in the Roman Catholic Church) the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining.

Lutherans, Anglicans and many Orthodox will be at odds with transubstantiation; but all hold the doctrine of the real presence.

There are a substantial number of posts stating this fact in this thread so either you only read what you want to read, or only comprehend what you want to comprehend.

Truth is that you are not here to discuss and understand (even if you don't agree; that is all right), you are just here to disregard and disrespect and argue.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You cannot read clearly.

I gave you the relevant text.
Justin Martyr said
"the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word .. IS the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" First apology, 66

Not debateable what he meant. And that is certainly Not symbolic

Stop misleading others.

And you still do not even one verse or statement supporting symbolic - I have dozens that do. I asked you for just 5 to support you, you cannot give me one!


Apostle Paul believed and said
The cup of blessing we drink is sharing the blood of Christ.

You would need to strain at gnats to make that symbolic!

Thats the problem with sola scriptura people. They abuse scripture to mean what they want it to mean, and ignore what it actually says! They cherry pick verses out of context then ignore the verses that prove them wrong.

The most literal interpretations of scripture are used by the catholic church!
In this case real body and blood.
Which is exactly what the apostles taught.
Which is why the early church did it.
Which is why the early fathers wrote it.

Only since mediaeval times have some like you gone off the rails with this symbolic nonsense/

Anyway. SInce you seem to leave your oppinion unaltered by scripture or facts, you are welcome to it. Just dont pretend the catholic church has the same problem you do of reading what is written. It does what scripture says.

Mike thats exactly how the sacrament is handeled in the churches I attend.

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Bread, Wine, Water

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

You really only see what you want to. Pick and choose what you want and disregard all else.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You cannot read clearly.

I gave you the relevant text.
Justin Martyr said
"the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word .. IS the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" First apology, 66

Not debateable what he meant. And that is certainly Not symbolic

Stop misleading others.

And you still do not even one verse or statement supporting symbolic - I have dozens that do. I asked you for just 5 to support you, you cannot give me one!


Apostle Paul believed and said
The cup of blessing we drink is sharing the blood of Christ.

You would need to strain at gnats to make that symbolic!

Thats the problem with sola scriptura people. They abuse scripture to mean what they want it to mean, and ignore what it actually says! They cherry pick verses out of context then ignore the verses that prove them wrong.

The most literal interpretations of scripture are used by the catholic church!
In this case real body and blood.
Which is exactly what the apostles taught.
Which is why the early church did it.
Which is why the early fathers wrote it.

Only since mediaeval times have some like you gone off the rails with this symbolic nonsense/

Anyway. SInce you seem to leave your oppinion unaltered by scripture or facts, you are welcome to it. Just dont pretend the catholic church has the same problem you do of reading what is written. It does what scripture says.

Sometimes we need to take the advice of Scripture and kick the dust off of our feet, and move on.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lutherans, Anglicans and many Orthodox will be at odds with transubstantiation; but all hold the doctrine of the real presence.

There are a substantial number of posts stating this fact in this thread so either you only read what you want to read, or only comprehend what you want to comprehend.

Truth is that you are not here to discuss and understand (even if you don't agree; that is all right), you are just here to disregard and disrespect and argue.

Please explain the doctrine of "Real Presence"?

How does actual Bread And Wine make it to the state of "Real Presence" actual flesh and blood?

1. Does the bread become actual flesh at the bakery?

2. Does the wine become actual blood at the winery?

Google Dictionary:

real pres·ence
rē(ə)l ˈprezns/
noun
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY

1. the actual presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharistic elements.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sometimes we need to take the advice of Scripture and kick the dust off of our feet, and move on.

I was kicking the dust off my feet

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Bread, Wine, Water

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

 

[prodromos]

See what I mean?