If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[redleghunter]

If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.



It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.



It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen?

Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?
Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?


******************************************************


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven


"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave His Son to win
His erring child He reconciled
And pardoned from his sin

Could we with ink the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!

By your reasoning God should not let anyone of us see physical death, suffer from disease etc.

The "opportunity" to set the creation in a universal salvation would have been in Genesis 3. Why wait all those thousands of years?

Not to mention, why did Jesus tarry and let Lazarus die. Why did He wait?

Answer those two questions and you might begin to see our entire existence is not about us but God. He is the Creator and we the creation. God created man to glorify Him and praise Him for His works.

We need to let that sink in deep. It is only then when we look at the Glory of God will we see that He is Merciful, Loving but also Judge.

 

[ClementofA]

By your reasoning God should not let anyone of us see physical death, suffer from disease etc.

By what logic, or illogic do you conclude that? It just looks like an empty hollow assertion, with nothing backing it up.

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a cruel deity such as Allah of Islam. Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

The "opportunity" to set the creation in a universal salvation would have been in Genesis 3. Why wait all those thousands of years?

Not to mention, why did Jesus tarry and let Lazarus die. Why did He wait?

Why would i care?

 

[redleghunter]

By what logic, or illogic do you conclude that? It just looks like an empty hollow assertion, with nothing backing it up.

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster. Corrective temporary
remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf






Why would i care?

Why wait thousands of years to universally save all!? You must address that based on the OP. Is it not cruel and sadistic to have all that death and disease? All those children dying through the ages?

Genesis 3 was the opportunity for God to just let what Adam and Eve did to slip by and forget about it.

Why did God destroy all those cities in the OT?

If God saves everyone then why did His Son in Whom He is well pleased have to die such a horrible death? Then tell His followers they better listen to Him?

 

[Doug Melven]

If God was planning to save everybody from sin, why did He put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden?
Why give man the freewill to bring sin into the world in the first place?
Because man must have the ability to reject God.
If someone is forced to love, that is not love at all.

 

[redleghunter]

If God was planning to save everybody from sin, why did He put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden?
Why give man the freewill to bring sin into the world in the first place?
Because man must have the ability to reject God.
If someone is forced to love, that is not love at all.

Exactly.

 

[ClementofA]

Why wait thousands of years to universally save all!? You must address that based on the OP. Is it not cruel and sadistic to have all that death and disease? All those children dying through the ages?

Why not wait & let more be conceived for salvation?

This relates to the topic of the "problem of evil"? What is your answer? Is free will important in your theology? Can Love Omnipotent work every momentary light suffering of this world, (which are in total nothing relative to endless sadistic torments), for good? Yes, He can & He will. OTOH, as i said:

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like the Islamic god "Allah". Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Genesis 3 was the opportunity for God to just let what Adam and Eve did to slip by and forget about it.

Why did God destroy all those cities in the OT?

Possibly to spare the world from suffering from their wickedness any longer & to send the wicked to corrective punishments.

If God saves everyone then why did His Son in Whom He is well pleased have to die such a horrible death? Then tell His followers they better listen to Him?

He had to die to save the world. His cruel death yet saying "Father, forgive them" sets the example for Christians to follow. Unlike the idea Love Omnipotent will torture billions for all the endless eons of eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[redleghunter]

Why not wait & let more be conceived for salvation?

This relates to the topic of the "problem of evil"? What is your answer? Is free will important in your theology? Can Love Omnipotent work every momentary light suffering of this world, (which are in total nothing relative to endless sadistic torments), for good? Yes, He can & He will. OTOH, as i said:

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster. Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf




Possibly to spare the world from suffering from their wickedness any longer & to send the wicked to corrective punishments.



He had to die to save the world. His cruel death yet saying "Father, forgive them" sets the example for Christians to follow. Unlike the idea Love Omnipotent will sadistically torture billions for all the endless eons of eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Doesn't jive. Sorry. Why all these thousands of years of suffering?

Why change in the age to come? What makes ultimate death of all the "right moment" for universal salvation?

What is this salvation based on? Divine clemency?

Or are the wicked punished just enough to accept the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins?

One is either punished or forgiven. Not both.

When does this Divine clemency for all occur?

 

[Marvin Knox]

No, i believe the true God of the Scriptures is the Savior of all & NOT a MONSTER. IOW He's not an eternal torturing sadist.

If God could and would save all - He could do it instantly and not have to leave people in torment for several thousand years (or whatever length of time you envision).

If He does that before letting them into Heaven then He would be only a little less the monster than you say He would be for torturing them for eternity.

As I see things you aren't off the hook with your vision of things. God would still be a monster. In fact He would be more of a monster since His justice didn't require torment for sinners.

If you choose to make universal salvation your theology - you are just whistling through a graveyard.

The fact is that the entire program of history would make Him a monster if I chose to judge Him as you do. But I don't. I believe what He has said and I trust Him even though I believe in His absolute sovereignty in all that happens in His creation.

What He has said is that His holiness requires eternal damnation for all sinners who are not justified by faith while living this physical life.

 

[redleghunter]

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

Completely un-Biblical.

Our will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to Christ. (Romans 6:17-19)

 

[ClementofA]

Completely un-Biblical.

Our will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to Christ. (Romans 6:17-19)

You're a Calvinist?

 

[redleghunter]

You're a Calvinist?

I referenced Paul. I'm a Biblicist.

Romans 6: NKJV

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to morelawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Right up there is your "free will." It's either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to God.

This post modern libertarian "free will" your OP promotes by personal plebiscite is foreign to Holy Scriptures.

As Jesus states concretely God is sovereign in salvation:

John 6: NKJV

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10: NKJV

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

And once again the Biblical Jesus told this parable:

Matthew 22: NKJV

22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[Oldmantook]

Jesus' experience on the cross was the physical death of the man. I have no idea what God did within Himself in the Spirit to deal with the sins of the world.

To answer your question - I do not believe that the punishment for the sins of the entire world against the holiness of God required only the 6 hour torture of a man. I believe much more happened Spiritually within God to pay the price for every sin ever committed.

Not to make light of what Jesus did physically at Calvary - but many men have suffered worse and I believe that none of their deaths were sufficient for the their own sins let alone every sin committed in the history of the world.

It is fine for your to have your opinion but as is the case with everything, it is necessary to have some scriptural backing. I see none unless you can point it out. Otherwise it remains your personal conjecture.

 

[ClementofA]

If God could and would save all - He could do it instantly and not have to leave people in torment for several thousand years (or whatever length of time you envision).

If those in "hell" choose to resist Him, is He going to violate their wishes? Would that be salvation or making people into robots & puppets?

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

If He does that before letting them into Heaven then He would be only a little less the monster than you say He would be for torturing them for eternity.

Not "only a little less", but infinitely less, since there is an infinite difference between finite and infinite sufferings. Furthermore, corrective sufferings are of a different nature than pointless unnecessary punishment that serves no corrective purpose.

The fact is that the entire program of history would make Him a monster if I chose to judge Him as you do.

A father correcting, training, disciplining & punishing his children for their own good is not monstrous. Torturing them forever pointlessly would be.


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[ClementofA]

Doesn't jive. Sorry. Why all these thousands of years of suffering?

You mean during the gift of life that God has given people? The few people who don't enjoy it enough to carry on often kill themselves. Even then this world with its sufferings serve various purposes, such as teaching mankind by an experiential knowledge of good & evil, for each individual's ultimate good. Men learn lessons such as forgiveness. It is an experience God has given to humble man. That's good for his character. Unlike endless pointless torments.

This relates to the topic of the "problem of evil"? What is your answer? Is free will important in your theology? Can Love Omnipotent work every momentary light suffering of this world, (which are in total nothing relative to endless sadistic torments), for good? Yes, He can & He will. OTOH, as i said:

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like the Islamic god "Allah". Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Jonathan Leo]

Sure for the man that wants to make up his own god in his own little mind this all works real well.

For the ones that believe in the Bible it does not fit in whatsoever.

Self-deception shows its evil head.

M-Bob

Lol, if man is corrupted by sin, of course man will try to make up what suits him.
This guy has another post about afterlife salvation.
We will know them by their fruit lol

 

[Albion]

God created man in His image and likeness and knows every hair on our head. So if eternal hell is true than that means before man was created God planned for certain people in their to be tortured this way. This is not a God of love and this is not Jesus this is a bad translation.

Well, my thinking is that we ought not invent a God to our liking and then decree that anything else isn't deserving of our allegiance. The Bible exists as God's revelation to mankind, and it we don't care for what it reveals, that's our problem, not His. If, however, there is a question about the correct interpretation of anything found therein, that's a different matter; but you seem to me to be arguing primarily on the basis of what seems reasonable to you rather than on the interpretation of something in Scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It is fine for your to have your opinion but as is the case with everything, it is necessary to have some scriptural backing. I see none unless you can point it out. Otherwise it remains your personal conjecture.

If you start a thread on it perhaps I'll join in.

I don't intend to pursue it now excepting what you ask me about it directly.

It was said that Jesus being in torments while people suffered eternally could only mean one thing - that being that He was a sadist and liked to watch.

I offered an alternative to that.

This wasn't a subject I chose to enter into here. Like Paul says, "You guys drove me to it".

 

[Marvin Knox]

Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever.

If those in "hell" choose to resist Him, is He going to violate their wishes? Would that be salvation or making people into robots & puppets?

Placing them in a situation where it is mathematically impossible for one to reject Him IS making people into robots and puppets.

It seems to me that withhold special light for some (such as He gave to Paul), making it an almost surety that they would find their way to Hell to be tortured for a million years after living this life on earth, IS being a monster just as surely as anything else He has done – if I were to allow myself to judge Him as you do.

Therefore universal salvation is truth.

Huhh?

Furthermore, corrective sufferings are of a different nature than pointless unnecessary punishment that serves no corrective purpose.

A father correcting, training, disciplining & punishing his children for their own good is not monstrous. Torturing them forever pointlessly would be.

Where do you get the idea that eternal punishment for sins is pointless and serves no corrective purpose?

It is my understanding that everything which happen because of the events of this age (from loving grace to righteous judgment) will be on display for ages to come.

In fact – everything He does in this creation is for the express purpose of displaying His various attributes for eternity thereby “magnifying” His glory. This is a point you seem to not understand.

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like the Islamic god "Allah". Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

You go ahead and call the God of the scriptures a sadistic, cruel monster if you feel you must. I want no part of judging Him so.

I trust a God who would die for my sins even when He does things I don't understand.

Though He slay me – yet will I trust Him.

 

[Doug Melven]

If those in "hell" choose to resist Him, is He going to violate their wishes? Would that be salvation or making people into robots & puppets?

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

Romans 2:4 says the goodness of God leads to repentance.
Even if God pursues them (which I doubt) they will not see His goodness, they can only see His wrath. John 3:36
Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

Those who are cursed do not see the goodness of God.
Therefore universal salvation is false.

 

[Oldmantook]

If you start a thread on it perhaps I'll join in.

I don't intend to pursue it now excepting what you ask me about it directly.

It was said that Jesus being in torments while people suffered eternally could only mean one thing - that being that He was a sadist and liked to watch.

I offered an alternative to that.

This wasn't a subject I chose to enter into here. Like Paul says, "You guys drove me to it".

I don't like starting threads because I then feel obligated to respond to every poster. I grow weary and eventually get bored and lose interest, but that's just me. You and I have had discussions in the past where we disagree but you remain respectful so I appreciate that.

Just a quick reflection on your premise. In essence, that would make the Good News, the bad news not only for the majority of humankind in the LOF but also for Jesus as well who suffers along with them. So God who despite being omniscient and omnipotent suffers along with lost souls forever. In my opinion, that doesn't sound like God would come up with a plan such as that. It brings to my mind, the picture of defeat and failure rather than victory and success. God is not defeated when establishing his divine purpose.

Philosophically the options are:
God is able to save all + God does not desire to save all = all are not saved. [Calvinism]
God is not able to save all + God desires to save all = all are not saved. [Arminianism]
God is able to save all + God desires to save all = all are saved [Universalism]

In terms of the Lamb being present in the LOF. It makes more sense to me that Jesus is there as a reminder to those who have sinned against him but not for eternal punishment as an end in itself but for chastisement and ultimately reconciliation which is what Universalism is based on. Scripturally, Jesus' presence in the LOF reminds me of the time when the Israelites because of their disobedience were bitten by "fiery serpents" in Numbers 21. As an antidote, Moses was commanded to fashion a bronze snake and put it on a pole so that "anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." Perhaps this is a type and shadow prefiguring what happens in the LOF to those suffering fiery pain but look upon Jesus? Jesus referenced this very incident when Nicodemus asked him how can a man be born again. Those who look upon Jesus who is with them in the LOF - will live.
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were thrown in the fiery furnace but a fourth person was seen present with them in the fiery furnace described as "a son of the gods" (Daniel 3:25). They lived through this fiery ordeal in the presence of the Lamb.