If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Soar Like and Eagle]

The Word of God does not refer to human beings as "spirits". I says that we have spirits. But that is not the same as calling us spirits.

The passage you cite does not say that He preached "good news" to the Spirits in question. It simply says that He made a proclamation.

It also tells us who those spirits were. They were the spirits who kept not their first abode in the days before the flood.

We have two options. I Pet.3:18-2. "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water


2070. esmen es-men' first person plural indicative of 1510; we are:--are, be, have our being, X have hope, + (the gospel) was (preached unto) us.


So what did Jesus Preach? That He is going to torture you forever and ever and ever with no mercy like you believe? If this is true this proves Jesus like what he is doing or he would of never preached this to them? Or the gospel. They were already spirits?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

It may well be that the reason so many here think of God as a monster because He punishes sin eternally is because they lack a proper appreciation of the holiness of God and therefore also lack a proper appreciation of just how egregious the sins of men and angels are to Him.

I repeat. Christ is not going to be tortured forever and ever with no mercy that is what your doctrine of damning people means. Yes God is going to punish/prune/chastise the wicked but not forever and ever and ever and ever. What purpose is there if God is torturing someone forever and ever with no mercy? Did not Jesus blood cover the sins of the whole world? Does He need to die again according to your doctrine of damning?

 

[thesunisout]

Yes God does punish/prune/chastise and it is just. But it is not just for God to torture billions of people he never called forever and ever and ever with NO mercy. That is the issue not punishment/pruning/chastisement.

It is just for God to punish all sin with everlasting punishment, because He is holy.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

It is just for God to punish all sin with everlasting punishment, because He is holy.

That is where you are wrong. It one thing to be holy. Its totally a whole different meaning to make this torture endless WITH NO MERCY. The Word Hell is a mis-translation and man is not an eternal being because we had a beginning. Only God is eternal and Jesus is a savior NOT A MONSTER.

 

[thesunisout]

That is where you are wrong. It one thing to be holy. Its totally a whole different meaning to make this torture endless WITH NO MERCY. The Word Hell is a mis-translation and man is not an eternal being because we had a beginning. Only God is eternal and Jesus is a savior NOT A MONSTER.

His mercy is available in Jesus Christ, who paid the punishment for sin. If you reject Jesus Christ there is no mercy available for you; it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hell means grace??? Did I say that???

No - you said it means "the grace".

That is why the word hell is a mis-transaction. it means the grace.

But then - you've said quite a few things that don't make much sense.

After reading your the long post number 197 above explaining to me that men have spirits - I wonder what part of this quote of mine did you misunderstand.

The Word of God does not refer to human beings as "spirits". I says that we have spirits. But that is not the same as calling us spirits.

But it is not just for God to torture billions of people he never called forever and ever and ever with NO mercy.

Yours is not to question God's justice. Yours is to believe what He has said - like it or not.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

His mercy is available in Jesus Christ, who paid the punishment for sin. If you reject Jesus Christ there is no mercy available for you; it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It is carnal mans nature to reject God. No one has freewill to choose God. It was God will; not little Adams that Adam fell.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.



Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

No - you said it means "the grace".

But then - you've said quite a few things that don't make much sense.

After reading your the long post number 197 above explaining to me that men have spirits - I wonder what part of this quote of mine did you misunderstand.


Yours is not to question God's justice. Yours is to believe what He has said - like it or not.

I would never question God's justice. I question you bad judgement of what God has said.

 

[ClementofA]

God is holy and His punishment for sin is just. How is it that you don't know that but a dying atheist did?

Last words of Sir Thomas Scott, Chancellor of England: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty

But i do know that.

I also know there is "hell". And all will be saved.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[Albion]

That is where you are wrong. It one thing to be holy. Its totally a whole different meaning to make this torture endless WITH NO MERCY. The Word Hell is a mis-translation and man is not an eternal being because we had a beginning. Only God is eternal and Jesus is a savior NOT A MONSTER.

It only seems so to Man, who judges such things from the platform of a fallen nature. Small children often see the actions taken by their parents in a similar way.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

It only seems so to Man, who judges such things from the platform of a fallen nature. Small children often see the actions taken by their parents in a similar way.

We are not talking about a spanking we are talking about YOU believe Jesus is going to torture BILLIONS of lost souls forever and ever with NO MERCY.



41 results: “for his mercy endureth forever”…

Where is you religious pagan made hell if that is the case; and it is…. What is the Gospel to you? The Gospel according to Orthodoxy is God can only save a few’ The good news to all men; not excluding the people who cannot believe unless God drags/drags them….. There is so much more to scripture then the little word “believe” that you’re the missing the message. There is no gospel/good news too billions that your evil religion’s heresies of damnation proclaim.


1 Peter 3:18:Young's Literal Translation 1 Peter: 18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

God does not might anything He does it or he does not do it.

Notice the above speaks of righteous (believer) as well as the unrighteous (unbeliever); no one is excluded….

Acts 15: 14-18 (Message) This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing.


Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord.
This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

So my point is the gospel is to all people not just the few God is calling now….

 

[Albion]

We are not talking about a spanking we are talking about YOU believe Jesus is going to torture BILLIONS of lost souls forever and ever with NO MERCY.

Perhaps, but 'torture' is your word, not the Bible's; and what seems to be merciful to us is, after all, merely what we humans know and believe. Even that--what constitutes mercy--varies among humans, depending upon the time and culture.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Perhaps, but 'torture' is your word, not the Bible's; and what seems to be merciful to us is, after all, merely what we humans know and believe. Even that--what constitutes mercy--varies among humans, depending upon the time and culture.

God created man in His image and likeness and knows every hair on our head. So if eternal hell is true than that means before man was created God planned for certain people in their to be tortured this way. This is not a God of love and this is not Jesus this is a bad translation.

The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box. The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following. A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So what did Jesus Preach? That He is going to torture you forever and ever and ever with no mercy like you believe? If this is true this proves Jesus like what he is doing or he would of never preached this to them? Or the gospel. They were already spirits?

There is no reason for Him to preach the gospel to fallen angels. Salvation isn't offered to them so far as we know.

I have no idea how His proclamation to them read. It is not preserved for us in the scriptures.

Does He need to die again according to your doctrine of damning?

No. He was crucified one time. I said nothing to contradict that.

As to the punishment for the sins of the world levied on Him by His Father - we are not told the extent of it.

We are only told that the Son of God exists "within the throne of God" as both Lion and Lamb.

I question you bad judgement of what God has said.

He said what He said and the vast majority of the Church has always seen it as saying that eternal damnation is the fate of all who are not found in Christ at the last judgement.

I'm not saying that you cannot convince yourself that universal salvation is true. I am, however, saying that it is a strained doctrine supported mostly by emotional arguments such as yours.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. That would be nice.

But I don't believe it is scriptural and neither does the Church in general.

The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box.

That's a crock of baloney.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

There is no reason for Him to preach the gospel to fallen angels. Salvation isn't offered to them so far as we know.

I have no idea how His proclamation to them read. It is not preserved for us in the scriptures.

No. He was crucified one time. I said nothing to contradict that.

As to the punishment for the sins of the world levied on Him by His Father - we are not told the extent of it.

We are only told that the Son of God exists "within the throne of God" as both Lion and Lamb.

He said what He said and the vast majority of the Church has always seen it as saying that eternal damnation is the fate of all who are not found in Christ at the last judgement.

I'm not saying that you cannot convince yourself that universal salvation is true. I am, however, saying that it is a strained doctrine supported mostly by emotional arguments such as yours.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. That would be nice.

But I don't believe it is scriptural and neither does the Church in general.

Please show in 1 Peter where there is any reference to fallen angels? You are right salvation is not offered to them. He did preach that scriptural. They were spirits that is scriptural. Nothing about fallen angels here that is your imagination.

Where does it say the majority of Christianity will lead and guide us into all truth? hell is a pagan word and eternal hell is a bad translation.

The word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible; it is a total mistranslation. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. You go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes.

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment.

Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.
Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

The Lake of Fire is spiritual.

 

[Oldmantook]

He may well be there suffering the punishment due us for our sins as well as those who are not among the elect.

If that is the case, then his suffering on the cross was insufficient? Do you really think that Jesus will be "suffering the punishment due us for our sins in the LOF? I don't think so.

Of course He does. The scriptures tell us so.

I find it quite ironic that yes indeed God does love us humans who were made in his image, yet he also torments those forever in the LOF. Your view accounts for but one attribute of God without reconciling the other - quite a paradox.

The first picture you painted (the one where God is taking delight in the punishment of the wicked) is not scriptural nor is it necessary to view God's personality that way in order to not believe in universal salvation.

Indeed as apparently you did not catch the hyperbole. That narrows our choices doesn't it?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I hope you are right and I am wrong. That would be nice.

But I don't believe it is scriptural and neither does the Church in general.
.

That just proves you are not the Church you are the church

 

[thesunisout]

It is carnal mans nature to reject God. No one has freewill to choose God. It was God will; not little Adams that Adam fell.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

God doesn't hold men accountable for what isn't their responsibility. We are entirely responsible for our sins, and God didn't make us sin. We are not automatons dancing on His strings. Unless you are prepared to say that God is responsible for our sin then you have to admit we have a will independent of God to make decisions for or against His will. Is that what you're saying?

You're right that without God no one would come to the Lord, but the Lord gives men an opportunity to come to Him through personal revelation:

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

 

[Marvin Knox]

That just proves you are not the Church you are the church

I have no idea what that means.

But - like I said before - a lot of things you have said make no sense.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

God doesn't hold men accountable for what isn't their responsibility. We are entirely responsible for our sins, and God didn't make us sin. We are not automatons dancing on His strings. Unless you are prepared to say that God is responsible for our sin then you have to admit we have a will independent of God to make decisions for or against His will. Is that what you're saying?

You're right that without God no one would come to the Lord, but the Lord gives men an opportunity to come to Him through personal revelation:

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Personal revelation true but you need to be called you have no freewill to save yourself.

Did you choose to live in a world full of sin and death? God placed us here for a purpose but this sin nature was never my choice or yours or even Adam.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

God is not calling the whole world now so why would God need to torture people he never called?