Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

[Sheep dog]

Again, you are going to have to do better than that, my friend. You are going to have to explain the context of the verses I posted to you in how they are not saying we are saved through Sanctification (In addition to Justification or God's grace). In addition, the chapters of the Bible you quoted back to me do not support Eternal Security. For here is what Scripture says (in the chapters you quoted to me).

John 3:20 says,
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

John 5:14 says,
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Romans 2:8-11 says,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."

Galatians 5:19-24 says,
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Ephesians 2:2-3 says,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Providing commentary for you only causes an argument. That isn't productive discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Providing commentary for you only causes an argument. That isn't productive discussion.

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with a good debate or argument as long as it is done in love and respect. For if your belief is true, you should be jumping at the chance to defend it so as to help other believers (Who may come across this forum and read this thread). In fact, how others feel about the truth of God's Word is irrelevant. God's Word is true no matter what somebody thinks, feels, or says.

 

[Sheep dog]

What do you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying then?
Do you believe it is saying that we have sin in our lives presently at this very moment?

I Jn 5:18

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Should be sufficient.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I Jn 5:18

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Should be sufficient.

Context.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:2-3).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

 

[Sheep dog]

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with a good debate or argument as long as it is done in love and respect. For if your belief is true, you should be jumping at the chance to defend it so as to help other believers (Who may come across this forum and read this thread). In fact, how others feel about the truth of God's Word is irrelevant. God's Word is true no matter what somebody thinks, feels, or says.

You just threw out my referenced passages without a thought. I saw no discussion or debate.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You just threw out my referenced passages without a thought. I saw no discussion or debate.

Well, that's not true. I posted Scripture in return and bolded those words that refute your belief in Eternal Security. It is up to you now to explain what those bolded words mean.

Also, you only provided general chapter references to me, as well.
You have to be a little more specific than that. For that would be like saying, "Hey, read the Bible if you want to know what I believe is true."

However, saying such a thing is too nebulous.

 

[Sheep dog]

Context.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:2-3).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Your verse implies practice or consistent wickedness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your verse implies practice or consistent wickedness.

Well, that would be mostly passages I quoted to you, but... "yes," you are right. For I am assuming you don't believe a saint can overcome their sin in this life, right? If that is what you believe than how do you not think a saint not overcoming their sin in this life as not being a practice of wickedness?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For example: There is a huge difference between:

(a) The alcoholic who stumbles on their road to recovery in being sober (versus):
(b) The alcoholic who enters a program to be sober and yet has no real desire to give up their drink.

 

[Sheep dog]

Well, that's not true. I posted Scripture in return and bolded those words that refute your belief in Eternal Security. It is up to you now to explain what those bolded words mean.

Also, you only provided general chapter references to me, as well.
You have to be a little more specific than that. For that would be like saying, "Hey, read the Bible if you want to know what I believe is true."

However, saying such a thing is too nebulous.

I don't support and never have promoted the false doctrine of Eternal Security.

I understand you to imply a single sin will shut one out heaven. This is much different from practicing sin (lifestyle).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, what about 1 John 1:8?
Are Christians here thinking that they must have sin in their life right now or they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them? Is that what 1 John 1:8 is saying?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't support and never have promoted the false doctrine of Eternal Security.

I understand you to imply a single sine will shut one out heaven. This is much different from practicing sin (lifestyle).

Ah, then you would then be the third rare person I have ran into (over my many years of talking with OSAS proponents) who believes that Eternal Security is false but yet you hold to the idea that is similar to them that a believer does not need to have works or holiness as a part of the salvation process in the faith (In addition to God's saving grace).

 

[Sheep dog]

Well, that would be mostly passages I quoted to you, but... "yes," you are right. For I am assuming you don't believe a saint can overcome their sin in this life, right? If that is what you believe than how do you not think a saint not overcoming their sin in this life as not being a practice of wickedness?

You assume? Have you ever had the what assuming does explained in a short version?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You assume? Have you ever had the what assuming does explained in a short version?

Well, there is no need for you to be cruel with me, my friend. Just tell me the truth. Do you believe it is possible for a believer to overcome serious sin (like murder, lying, coveting, adultery, etc.) in this life? Yes, or no?

 

[Sheep dog]

Ah, then you would then be the third rare person I have ran into (over my many years of talking with OSAS proponents) who believes that Eternal Security is false but yet you hold to the idea that is similar to them that a believer does not need to have works or holiness as a part of the salvation process in the faith (In addition to God's saving grace).

Then you haven't been reading other posters.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then you haven't been reading other posters.

Most of the time, I only make it a point to read posts where people quote me. While I may sometimes read other people's posts (who have not quoted me); Sometimes I am very busy and I do not always read what everyone else is saying on the topic. Other times, I simply do not care to read every single post within a thread because I do not feel all people on a forum have something note worthy to share. Have you always read every single post within a thread you partake in?

 

[Sheep dog]

No I haven't skipped anything.

But I've had quite my fill and revenue generation for today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No I haven't skipped anything.

So you are saying that you read every single post of a topic you partake in within every thread on a Christian forum? Even if you did do that, you should not expect others to do the same. People are very busy and or others share things that are not profitable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Besides, what does this have to do with the topic of the thread?
In other words, lets get back to the topic of the thread.

 

[amariselle]

No thanks. Just talk to me straight and stop beating around the bush. A simple "yes" or "no" to the following question is all you have to do (so as to explain what you believe).

Okay. Here is the question.

Are you saying that a believer can mow down a crowd with a sub machine gun and still be saved while doing so?

Yes? or No?

That's it.
It's that simple.
Just say "yes" or "no" please.

Honestly, that question is beyond absurd!

And I have never heard anyone who truly understands the Gospel and "rests" in Christ ever even suggest such a thing.

It always seems to be those who are attempting to bring saved and born again believers who are trusting fully in Christ for salvation, back under the Law or some kind of condemnation. So, I suppose they just feel they need to bring up the most horrific scenario they can imagine to throw at those who do have security in Christ.

By the way, as God has created us human beings with a conscience, most people could never imagine doing such an atrocious thing before they are saved and truly understand the depths of sin and the unfathomable price paid for their sin by the precious blood of Christ, and yet you would suggest that a saved believer's reaction to being saved by God's grace and mercy is just going to be a desire to "mow down a crowd with a sub machine gun"....

Bizarre!