Was Jesus Himself an Actual "Feminist" in a way? Yes or no?

Paidiske

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Patriarchy Biblically is good and perfect and fine and right and so forth.

Now here, I can't agree. Because by definition patriarchy excludes women from power, and that is oppressive; and oppression is never good and perfect and fine and right and so forth.

That is not Jesus' way.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Now here, I can't agree. Because by definition patriarchy excludes women from power, and that is oppressive; and oppression is never good and perfect and fine and right and so forth.

That is not Jesus' way.
That is your opinion, and not what Scripture says clearly to me.
YHWH'S Way, and Jesus' Way, is not "oppression".
 
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mkgal1

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That is your opinion, and not what Scripture says clearly to me.
YHWH'S Way, and Jesus' Way, is not "oppression".
This is "Biblical Patriarchy"....although not actually from the Bible (and it's indeed contrary to Jesus' Way):

Biblical patriarchy - Wikipedia

Biblical patriarchy has been criticised for holding views that demean women and view them as property. Don and Joy Veinot of Midwest Christian Outreach interpret the Vision Forum statement to imply that "women really cannot be trusted as decision makers" and "unless a daughter marries, she functionally remains pretty much the 'property' of the father until he dies."[18]

Andrew Sandlin criticizes biblical patriarchy for teaching the authority of fathers, whereas the Bible teaches the authority of both fathers and mothers. Sandlin argues that "whenever the Bible has in mind children’s obligation to parents, it never depicts a paternal hierarchy, only a parental hierarchy", that "the father has no more say in the children’s rearing than the mother", and that "the Bible does not teach that the father is the head of the household".[19] Elsewhere, Sandlin argues that a "renewed patriarchalism in some quarters is working for hegemony over the other legitimate spheres of God’s authority."[2
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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This is "Biblical Patriarchy"....although not actually from the Bible (and it's indeed contrary to Jesus' Way):..
If you think YHWH is opposed to Jesus, nothing you do will succeed.

Likewise, even though society, the world, and even the 'church' is damaged with many false teachings,
the remedy is not outside of YHWH/Yeshua, but in line with YHWH/Yeshua.

'Feminism', of the world, is like the rest of society - pernicious and in rebellion against YHWH/Yeshua and contrary to all Scripture.

The key to 'relief' (salvation?) from the troubles seen in society and in the church is granted freely by YHWH/YESHUA ,

but ACCORDING to HIS WORD (SCRIPTURE), not at odds with it, not opposed to it.
 
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mkgal1

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If you think YHWH is opposed to Jesus, nothing you do will succeed.
That's nothing like what I posted. I posted this:

mkgal1 said:
This is "Biblical Patriarchy"....although not actually from the Bible (and it's indeed contrary to Jesus' Way):..


People often use terms like "biblical" and "God's Way" as ways to promote their false teaching in effort to lend more credibility to what they're promoting. Paul warned us against teachers like this.
 
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mkgal1

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I'm fairly certain we all agree that being a Christian means trying to live our lives "like Christ"...right? Remember the "What Would Jesus Do" trend years ago? I'm thinking that what Michael Flood is encouraging (in response to sexual harassment and exploitation of women) *is* what Jesus would do:

Michael Flood on Twitter

Michael G Flood said:
What can men do to stop sexism and men's violence against women? What can men do to build gender equality and prevent and reduce men's violence against women?~What men can do to stop sexism and male violence | www.xyonline.net

Instead of men being more concerned about protecting their own careers (self-interest)....I believe it's more "Christ-like" to help put a stop to the mistreatment of women.

Another example (of what I believe is "Christ-like" behavior) is what Australia's Government is working towards with their Stop it at the Start campaign:


The Australian said:
A language guide designed to expose “hidden meanings” behind common expressions such as “boys will be boys”, “she’s a little princess” and “it takes two to tango” is the latest weapon in the multi-million-dollar war on violence against women.

The Excuse Interpreter, released as part of the Council of Australian Governments’ Stop it at the Start campaign, claims to shine a spotlight on language that stereotypes the sexes and excuses disrespectful behaviour towards women.~Nocookies
.....labels don't always identify things accurately. I believe it's more about behavior.....paradigms...etc.
 
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mkgal1

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Likewise, even though society, the world, and even the 'church' is damaged with many false teachings,
the remedy is not outside of YHWH/Yeshua, but in line with YHWH/Yeshua.

The key to 'relief' (salvation?) from the troubles seen in society and in the church is granted freely by YHWH/YESHUA ,

but ACCORDING to HIS WORD (SCRIPTURE), not at odds with it, not opposed to it.
I don't disagree with this.....but the trouble is, you are being very dubious in where you make distinctions between what is "of this world" and what is "in line with YHWH".

Lording over others is NOT in line with JEsus' teaching (and that's what feminism is against).....so it's in line with Jesus.

Jesus said:
"For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest."~Recorded in Luke 9:49
 
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RDKirk

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Patriarchy Biblically is good and perfect and fine and right and so forth.

Patriarchy secularly (of the world) is like the world, evil and pernicious and wrong.

Under God's Guidance, people are (when they obey Him) good and perfect and fine and right and so forth (according to Scripture).

Under the world's control (the prince of the power of the air), they are evil and pernicious and wrong and opposed to God and opposed to His Word.

And yet, a big problem with the Body of Christ in the last 2000 years has been the acceptance of non-Christian patriarchal concepts as the definition and face of Godly patriarchy.

I would submit that the concepts are different enough that we shouldn't even use the term "Godly patriarchy" because the word carries too much secular baggage (as does "feminist" or even "liberal" or "conservative" or a host of other secular terms).

For one thing, for instance, the Godly concept is always one of stewardship. In Christ's economy, all authority comes with accountability: The person given authority over another will be held accountable for that person's welfare and growth. The shepherd is expected to present fat, healthy sheep when called to account by the Master.

Nobody who is unwilling to be held accountable should seek authority.
 
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RDKirk

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Now here, I can't agree. Because by definition patriarchy excludes women from power, and that is oppressive; and oppression is never good and perfect and fine and right and so forth.

That is not Jesus' way.

What is "Jesus' way" about desiring power in the first place?

Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all."
 
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Paidiske

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What is "Jesus' way" about desiring power in the first place?

Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all."

It's not about desiring power. It's about sharing power and including everybody in that, as a mark of their dignity as human beings.

To deny someone power - to make choices about her life, to make a contribution to society, to participate in the life and mission of the church, and so on - is to deny that person some of her human dignity. To treat her as a child or a possession.
 
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RDKirk

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It's not about desiring power. It's about sharing power and including everybody in that, as a mark of their dignity as human beings.

To deny someone power - to make choices about her life, to make a contribution to society, to participate in the life and mission of the church, and so on - is to deny that person some of her human dignity. To treat her as a child or a possession.

You're still talking about power rather than service.

The inter-Christian relationship is about service.
 
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RDKirk

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Do we need to go back to first principles and define power? To my mind, you can't do anything without power. Power's about being able to do stuff.

Oh, if you're just talking about breathing, walking around and stuff like that? Well women already do that equally with men.

But really Paidiske, if that's where you've gone with the discussion, just acknowledge that my point is made.
 
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Paidiske

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Oh, if you're just talking about breathing, walking around and stuff like that? Well women already do that equally with men.

But really Paidiske, if that's where you've gone with the discussion, just acknowledge that my point is made.

I'm afraid your point is lost on me.

There are - to my mind - two quite separate things under discussion. One is the degree to which we have power; the degree to which we are able to do "stuff," preferably the stuff God calls us to do.

The other is the degree to which we orient our lives around the call to serve.

These are not opposed to one another but are intersecting realities. Ideally, our society would both empower people as much as possible, and create a culture in which that power was used rightly; in service to the common good.

Feminism isn't about grabbing power in order to refuse to serve. It is about claiming the rightful sharing of power in order to participate in life to the full; ideally, (as for men), in order to serve.

Ultimately, refusing to share power with women is refusing to allow us to serve alongside our brothers.
 
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SolomonVII

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Now here, I can't agree. Because by definition patriarchy excludes women from power, and that is oppressive; and oppression is never good and perfect and fine and right and so forth.

That is not Jesus' way.
That is the spin that feminism has put on patriarchy in order to revolt against the Patriarchy of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who are the founding fathers of Western Civilization.
To the extent that the sexual revolution of the feminists has been successful, more and more families have become without patriarchs or male presences of any kind.
That Christian women would want to identify with that movement defines the success of the movement to change the meaning of words.
 
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mkgal1

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I don't know.....using the word "patriarchy" to describe the Holy Trinity seems in error to me. God is gender-less (even though we use the metaphor of Father). All of humanity is made in God's image. When we emphasize the Father only (in the Trinity) we miss the community and sharing of love and distinction that's represented in the Trinity--the paradox of 3 in 1. To me....it really seems to minimize all that's revealed to us in the Trinity. Our entire ability to love others has to do with what we believe about the Trinity. No one should be excluded or perceived as less valuable.

I really appreciate the writing of Mike Morrell and Fr Richard Rohr. Together they wrote the Divine Dance (which is based on the Cappadocian Father's Trinity). It seems the modern church has gotten away from that Trinity. In Mike Morrell's blog, he wrote:

Mike Morrell said:
Theology always made the claim that it had the power to offer us the biggest picture of all (the “Reign of God” in Jesus’ language), even though it all too often offered us rather small, self-serving, and tribal images of God. Without knowing it, and contrary to its own unique revelation, I think much of Christian history did the same thing.

When you start with a conception of God as an old white man sitting in the clouds, it is of little surprise that white men, preferably empowered white men, are considered the closest to God and the most worthy of respect and value. It becomes a top-down universe, a pyramid much more than the circular dance (perichoresis). Perichoresis, the Trinity as dance, is indeed the precise and daring image that ignited some of our early church fathers’ finest intuitions, prompting consensus around this utterly new revelation of God. It took them three centuries to make full sense out of Jesus’ often-confusing language about what he named “Father,” how he understood himself, and what he named the “Holy Spirit.” Our common form of dualistic thinking just could not process such three-fold and one-ness evocations at the same time.

It was frankly, illogical — and even silly.


The human ego is so resistant to anything its mind cannot quickly process and control; it prefers separateness and a sense of superiority — precisely what the Trinity rejects and denies.

Yet if we do not discern and celebrate difference on the level of what visible humanness means, what hope is there on issues where “difference” is often much more striking (gender, power, class, education, etc.)? Every one of these issues is searching for its own locus of authority today, and as naïve as it might sound to some, I believe Trinity does provide such an appropriate locus of authority for those who are willing to trust and allow it. God is precisely one by holding together very real difference.~Divine Dance: How the Trinity Dissolves Racism by Richard Rohr
 
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RDKirk

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I don't know.....using the word "patriarchy" to describe the Holy Trinity seems in error to me. God is gender-less (even though we use the metaphor of Father). All of humanity is made in God's image. When we emphasize the Father only (in the Trinity) we miss the community and sharing of love and distinction that's represented in the Trinity--the paradox of 3 in 1. To me....it really seems to minimize all that's revealed to us in the Trinity. Our entire ability to love others has to do with what we believe about the Trinity. No one should be excluded or perceived as less valuable.:

Someone who "emphasizes the Father only" does not understand the Trinity. I don't know, offhand, of any actual Trinitarian doctrine that "emphasizes the Father only," but I perceive it as an anti-Christian feminist ploy to claim that the Trinity does that in order to pull women away from Christ.
 
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