Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

[listed]

Then why is it so difficult for anyone to point out precisely where the commandment in the NT for Christians to observe the Sabbath is? If it's there, someone should have been able to find it.

This very question has floated around here for at least 6 years.

 

[listed]

Precisely!!



Didn't you just say you did not care if commandments of God like "do not take God's name in vain" are repeated or not in the NT?

Why do you try to put words in a person's mouth?

 

[listed]

Quoting yourself?

No more than you did.

 

[listed]

Hiya, Bob....hope everything is going well for you.The “work



Wow....a five year old could have gotten the point of this..this ain’t about your job at the local McDonald’s...it’s saying you don’t h@ve to work for your salvation...Jesus has done all the work needed to save the souls who trust in His finished work.I think ol’ Bob is just messing with us.” Nobody is this brain-dead!

Bob thinks we are.

 

[listed]

No, I believe he's sincere. It's the doctrine he's been taught and standard for his denomination. He's also likely had it reinforced over and over that other perspectives on this issue is "of the devil" and that we can't see "the truth" because all other denominations are apostate and are being deceived. He probably is very concerned for our salvation the way he views it.

No, he's evangelizing. He has no desire to understand the Scripture or the truth. He'll deny this.

 

[listed]

We are not talking about being made righteous - we are talking about the fact that rebellion against God is not the path to eternal life for Christians as we see in 1 Cor 6.

Why do you try to fool us? If a person violates the law are they righteous in your understanding?

 

[JLB777]

Shalom y'all,

I've been discussing with an SDA who states that Sunday worship of G-d is man-made tradition, breaking G-d's commandments and is a sin.

I have asked repeatedly for Scripture which proves that claim and have yet to receive it. What I got was some Scriptures not related at all.

So, instead, I'm asking all you Sabbath and Law-keepers to help me out here with some GRACIOUS discussion on this topic. Please don't copy/ paste SDA websites and flood a bunch of lists of Scriptures. I'm seeking REAL discussion, in a gracious manner, if you're up for it!

And, I'll share why I believe Sunday worship, or Monday worship or Tuesday worship of G-d is not only fine, but encouraged and sanctioned by G-d's Word, not the opinions of man.
Sunday worship of G-d is NOT breaking His commands, nor is it a sin in any way shape or form.

G-d's words:

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight," (Acts 20:7).

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come," (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

I was in the Spirit on the L-rd’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea," (Revelation 1:10-11).

Man's words, but truth regarding the history:
"Sunday is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. It was the Christians who celebrated Yeshua's resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

The weekly Sabbath, points us to the 1000 year, Day of rest, when we who are Christ's will reign and rule with Him on earth for a thousand years.


This is the 7th prophetic Day.

Peter says it this way -

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8


Hebrews says it like this -

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Hebrews 4:1-10

• There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

JLB

 

[bekkilyn]

Now which passage did you say tells us to keep the sabbath in the NT?

Good luck getting a straight answer to that one.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

No, he's evangelizing. He has no desire to understand the Scripture or the truth. He'll deny this.

Sincere,perhaps.....Jesus ain’t gonna care a whit about “sincerity on Judgement Day. Many people will be “sincerely” wrong.Especially those that try to add to the suffering He endured with their puny attempts of their own so-called “righteousness”. “Look what “I” did Lord....I kept the correct sabbath(even though Paul clearly said it did not matter and your Book says if you focus on one law you are responsible to obey them all) so c’mon Jesus—-give me what I deserve! If you want what you deserve
You will go to Hell-that’s what we all “deserve”. Wise,saved men will admit that the only reason they can enter Paradise is because of the blood shed for them by Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

And we are made righteous through *Jesus* and not through the law.

We are not talking about being made righteous - we are talking about the fact that rebellion against God is not the path to eternal life for Christians as we see in 1 Cor 6.

And Romans 2

you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Well keep trying to condemn me.

It's called "Scripture" and it does not appear to me that the post above was even a response to you.

Your argument is "with the text" apparently

Romans 8:1 says you and the law can't.

Romans 8:4-9 says that the lost "do not keep the Law of God and indeed CAN not" - and those same verses contrast that with the saved.

Again - it is the fact of scripture that cannot be changed simply because someone does not like what scripture says. As we probably both agree.

 

[BobRyan]

Now which passage did you say tells us to keep the sabbath in the NT?

Meanwhile - we still have this
====================
1. for all eternity after the cross in the new earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
2. In the NEW Testament "the SABBATH was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27
3. In the NT - "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
4. In the NT - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
5. IN the NT - "the SAINTS keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles came to hear Gospel preaching Acts 18:4
6. In the NT - the FIRST commandment with a promise - is the 5th commandment in that still-valid-unit-of-TEN -- Ephesians 6:2
7. in the NT - 'They meet EVERY Sabbath in the synagogue" for BOTH Jew AND gentile to hear Gospel preaching.
8. "ALL scripture given by inspiration of God AND to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16
9 Rev 14:7 Sabbath commandment quoted - Exodus 20:11


EVEN the pro-Sunday scholars know that all TEN of the TEN Commandments remain.

Good luck getting a straight answer to that one.

I think you mean good luck NOT seeing those texts posted again.

And of course - good luck to you seeing that level of reference in the NT to "Do not take God's name in vain"

 

[BobRyan]

And we are made righteous through *Jesus* and not through the law.

We are not talking about being made righteous - we are talking about the fact that rebellion against God is not the path to eternal life for Christians as we see in 1 Cor 6.

And Romans 2

you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Why do you try to fool us? If a person violates the law are they righteous in your understanding?

It's called "scripture" ... your argument is "with the text"

 

[bekkilyn]

I think you mean good luck NOT seeing those texts posted again.

And of course - good luck to you seeing that level of reference in the NT to "Do not take God's name in vain"

I don't think there's any magic spell in the NT where if you spam the same thing multiple times, they suddenly turn into a relevant verse that specifically commands Christian believers in the NT to observe the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Now which passage did you say tells us to keep the sabbath in the NT?

Meanwhile - we still have this
====================
1. for all eternity after the cross in the new earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
2. In the NEW Testament "the SABBATH was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27
3. In the NT - "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
4. In the NT - "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
5. IN the NT - "the SAINTS keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles came to hear Gospel preaching Acts 18:4
6. In the NT - the FIRST commandment with a promise - is the 5th commandment in that still-valid-unit-of-TEN -- Ephesians 6:2
7. in the NT - 'They meet EVERY Sabbath in the synagogue" for BOTH Jew AND gentile to hear Gospel preaching.
8. "ALL scripture given by inspiration of God AND to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16
9 Rev 14:7 Sabbath commandment quoted - Exodus 20:11


EVEN the pro-Sunday scholars know that all TEN of the TEN Commandments remain.

Good luck getting a straight answer to that one.

I think you mean good luck NOT seeing those texts posted again.

And of course - good luck to you seeing that level of reference in the NT to "Do not take God's name in vain"

I don't think there's any magic spell in the NT where if you spam the same thing multiple times,

so then "how many times" have you asked for these same NT texts about the Sabbath while claiming there is not one NT statement affirming the Bible Sabbath?

Can we even count the number of times you have done that?

Meanwhile you already admitted that "the fact that by contrast we have NO quote at all in the NT of the command not to take God's name in vain -- means nothing" and in fact we must honor that Commandment - no matter that detail.

AT that point the basis for your entire argument ended.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Those who oppose God's Sabbath commandment have free will and can respond to God's commandments with any sort of gimmick they wish. I am not trying to stop them. But the details above are irrefutable and do not vanish simply because someone finds them inconvenient.

 

[bekkilyn]

so then "how many times" have you asked for these same NT texts about the Sabbath while claiming there is not one NT statement affirming the Bible Sabbath?

Can we even count the number of times you have done that?

Meanwhile you already admitted that "the fact that by contrast we have NO quote at all in the NT of the command not to take God's name in vain -- means nothing" and in fact we must honor that Commandment - no matter that detail.

AT that point the basis for your entire argument ended.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Those who oppose God's Sabbath commandment have free will and can respond to God's commandments with any sort of gimmick they wish. I am not trying to stop them. But the details above are irrefutable and do not vanish simply because someone finds them inconvenient.

You and some others have been making the claim that we are all still under the law and thus are under an obligation to observe the Sabbath. When asked for a specific verse where this particular law is commanded in the NT to back up that claim, you either will not or cannot produce it. You either post verses out-of-context that mention the word "sabbath" in them, or you deflect by bringing up other OT commandments that no one has been discussing.

It's not just you. *No* one has been able to produce the verse in the NT that commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath, and yet over and over and over, the claim is that it's in there. Then when it's asked for, the response is, "Uh, well what about this *other* thing over here?

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

 

[BobRyan]

You and some others have been making the claim that we are all still under the law and thus are under an obligation to observe the Sabbath.

Your own pro-Sunday scholars admit that we are not supposed to take God's name in vain.. that this is still a sin,,, and that the TEN Commandments (ALL TEN) are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.

What part of this is supposed to be difficult? It is not just "me" admitting to God's commandments it is the Bible and the quotes I gave you - that you are not addressing in that post to me.


When asked for a specific verse where this particular law is commanded in the NT to back up your arguments against God's Sabbath Commandment while claiming the command "do not take God's name in vain" is still valid - you can find nothing in support of "do not take God's name in vain" being quoted verbatim in the NT and have admitted that not finding anything in that case... means absolutely nothing at all.

Your entire argument came crashing down at that point because you freely admit that taking God's name in vain is STILL a sin - even though you can't find a single NT text saying "hey you gentiles - I the LORD your God command you to not take God's name in vain".

And that ended your entire argument!!

The gimmick you were trying failed miserably in the case of "do not take God's name in vain" and you had to admit that it is meaningless the gimmick failed in the first simple test proposed. (which you keep insisting we are not supposed to notice)

When this is pointed out to you your response is

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You and some others have been making the claim that we are all still under the law and thus are under an obligation to observe the Sabbath.

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

It is funny I do not see anyone making those claims here at all. I do see some however always accusing some of making these claims and changing topics when confronted with God's Word. Is this the deflecting you are talking about above?

For example..............................

Post # 7
It's never been about following the law its always been about following Christ by faith through love alone. Faith that works by love is what fulfills God's Law in those that walk in His Spirit (Romans 13:8-10). Obedience is only the fruit of faith and a sign that someone is genuinely following God's Word (Matthew 7:17-27). If you seek obedience without faith you will never attain it because this is the gift of God written on the heart (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 8:10-12). But if you believe God's Word, your faith will be counted for righteousness in God's eyes (Romans 1:17; Philippians 3:9). If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience (God's work in you) than you are still in your sins and have not seen him or known him and your faith is dead (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9). May God bless you as you seek him through His Word..........

and yet we continue to get................................

Post # 10

bekkilyn, post:The Law is the Torah. The Torah includes the ten commandments. When Jesus fulfilled the Law, he fulfilled all of it, and not just the parts that are convenient to an agenda.

Post # 23

bekkilyn, post: The agenda of trying to convince people who have been freed through Jesus from the law to return to the bondage of the law. There is no salvation in the law. Salvation is through Jesus alone.

Post # 91

bekkilyn, post: Well this whole thing all started because of someone's belief that if we do not observe the Saturday Sabbath as a mandatory requirement to be saved, then we will not enter heaven, so it was a salvation argument from the beginning

This is despite posting the opposite more than once .....................

Corrected again here.................................

Post # 99

Now if I have made my position clear on what I believe from the beginning why continue to say things that are not true? It has never been about doing something to be saved other than to have faith that works by love in him who loves all and to believe what God says and follow him. If God's Word asks us to do something and we do not do it, is that FAITH or UNBELIEF?

HEB 8: (new covenant)
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

God Fulfilling His Law (10 commandments) IN US through Faith?

The fulfilling of the God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the Spirit (new mind with God's Law written on the heart) (Rom 8:1). That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled IN US who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the spirit (Rom 8:4; 6). Salvation is God fulfilling his Law in us saving us from sin. Finally the result of God's salvation can be seen as " Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Rev 14:12). God's people with the character of Jesus saved by faith through love. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:34-36)

If you are partaking of the New Covenant and you have been born again and are walking in the Spirit. You will not steal, lie, murder, commit adultery or break any of God's commandments because God's Law of love has been written on your heart.

These are ll a part of God’s Law (the 10 commandments). So under the New Covenant, you will not murder and steal. So let’s look at all of God’s Law applying the same thinking (Ex 20:1-17). This indeed is the new covenant experience spoken of in Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:26-27 and repeated in Heb 8:10-12; 10:16-17.

“33I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” This is the law of love to God and to our neighbour.

So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.

if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

God’s Law has always been central to both the Old and the New Covenant. It is only by the operation of God as we have Faith in His Word that God changes our hearts so that we can love him and love our neighbour that we can walk in his ways. This is why Jesus says its only if you love me we can keep hid commandments (John 14:15)

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Love is the fulfilling of the God’s Law in us who walk by faith that works by love and is why love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit….

This is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments; He that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. (John 14:15; 1 John 2:2-4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-11)

NOW this is the experience of the believer who by faith alone lays hold of the promises of God to know the power of God unto salvation. This is what it means to be a believer or to believe God's Word. If you believe God's Word you have the fruit of faith which is obedience to God through love.

Now what about the UNBELIEVER or someone that does NOT BELIEVE God.....................

Without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:26) because our salvation depends on us believing God's Word. It is the means of salvation from our sins. Unbelief (not having faith) in God's Word caused the fall of mankind and has given us the knowledge of good and evil. It is unbelief (not believing God's Word) that separates us from God and leads us to be lost. In light of the above and the New Covenant of love here are a few questions to think about.......

When God tells us to have no other God's before Him and we disobey Him, is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says you should not make any idols and we disobey Him, is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says we should not use His name in vain and we disobey Him, is this having faith in God's Word?

When God tells us to remember His Sabbath day and keep it Holy and we disobey God is this having faith in God's Word?

When God tells is to honor our mother and father and we disobey Him is this having faith in Gods Word?

When God says to us do not commit adultery and we commit adultery is this unbelief (not having faith)?

When God tells us not to lie and we lie is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says to us not to steal, and we steal is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says to us not to kill, and we kill is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says to us not to covet our neighbors things and we disobey God, is this having faith in God's Word?

All the above can be summed up as ......

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deut 6:5) and "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD. (Lev 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets (Matt 22:40)

Not having faith is a sin because your rejecting Gods Word. The word of God clearly tells us though that...

"Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1John 3:4)

Faith is the means to salvation but obedience is the fruit of salvation if you are still in your sins you have not seen him or known him

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believe that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:17-20).

There is a salvation issue alright and it is over SIN which transgression of God's Law and UNBELIEF in God's Word (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 14:23).

If any of us are living a life of known unrepentant SIN it is God's Word that says you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven not mine.

Hebrews 10
26, For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1 John 3:6,
Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 2
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We must point all to the Word of God because it is only in the Word of God anyone can know the truth and the truth will make us free......

Who should we believe the traditions and teachings of men, or the Word of God?

It is only God's Word that will judge is in the last days (John 12:47-48) and in times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

May God bless you all as you seek him through His Word. That is the only place any of us are safe. If you got this far please forgive my long post.

God's Sheep hear His Voice..........

and again ....................................

Post # 255

Salvation through works of law is not the gospel. Anyone can write paragraphs of anything about anything and pepper it with out-of-context bible verses to "prove" what it is saying, but if it's not proclaiming that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, it is false. Do not be deceived.

Post # 276

I choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. You cannot be saved by works of law, whether it be by observing a Saturday Sabbath, wearing tassels on your clothes, or getting circumcised. The grace of Jesus Christ *is* the only way.

Post # 282

Good works are not something *we* do in order to earn salvation. Good works are something *he* does through us.

Post # 268

Indeed, because if they admit that observing Saturday Sabbath is mandatory for salvation, then it's also an admittance that salvation is through some means other than Jesus, and they're not going to state it simply and directly. It's part of the indoctrination process.

You are correct saying; if you say things over and over again does not make them magically come true. The same as if any of us ignore God's Word magically makes it untrue and go away. The same Word whether we believe it or not will judge us all in the last days (John 12:47-48).

No one here is telling you that we are saved by what we do apart from faith. So your trying to build an argument that is not there. If you have no argument and people believe and agree we are all saved through Faith alone you have nothing to argue about.

We are talking about SIN here and how it will keep you OUT of God's Kingdom. If we do not REPENT of our SINS and our faith does not work by love that produces the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE you WILL be LOST. The fruit of Love is the Gift of God in those that walk in His Spirit and a sign that they are the true believers because they follow God's WOrd by faith in love.

For example God's Word says...........................

Hebrews 10
26, For IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

Hebrews 6
4, For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7, For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8, But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

1 John 2:2-4
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:3-10
3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.
7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Psalms 1
5, Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6, For the LORD knows the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Peter 2
3, And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
4, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5, And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6, And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;
7, And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Jude 1
14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Ecclesiastes 12
13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14, For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Isaiah 1
28, And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 13
9, Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 33
14, The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15, He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16, He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Proverb 8
36, But he that sins against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death

Ezekiel 18
4, Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21, But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22, All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23, Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24, But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26, When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27, Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28, Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29, Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30, Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31, Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32, For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves , and live ye.

Proverbs 28
9, He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Ezekiel 33
10, Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 , I f the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Romans 6
23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we break any one of the ten we stand guilty before God of SIN (James 2:8-11) and need to repent and seek his forgiveness (Proverbs 28:13; 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). Those that continue a life in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Many in the days of Jesus and also Paul when they shared God's Word did not want to hear it and Jesus said to them;

Matthew 13
14, And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Let us all be careful not to make the same mistakes as those in the past that followed the mainstream teachers of the day over the Word of God.

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's Word that says the 4th commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now COMMANDED to KEEP Sunday as a HOLY Day.

If there is NO scripture that says the 4th commandments is ABOLISHED and we are now COMMANDED to KEEP Sunday as a HOLY day then we should OBEY God rather than man (Acts 5:29; Romans 3:4) because SIN will keep you out of God's Kingdom........

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

 

[klutedavid]

It is funny I do not see anyone making those claims at all. I do see some others always accusing others of making these claims and changing topics when confronted with God's Word.

For example..............................

Post # 7
It's never been about following the law its always been about following Christ by faith through love alone. Faith that works by love is what fulfills God's Law in those that walk in His Spirit (Romans 13:8-10). Obedience is only the fruit of faith and a sign that someone is genuinely following God's Word (Matthew 7:17-27). If you seek obedience without faith you will never attain it because this is the gift of God written on the heart (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 8:10-12). But if you believe God's Word, your faith will be counted for righteousness in God's eyes (Romans 1:17; Philippians 3:9). If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience (God's work in you) than you are still in your sins and have not seen him or known him and your faith is dead (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9). May God bless you as you seek him through His Word..........

and yet we continue to get................................

Post # 10


Post # 23


Post # 91


This is despite posting the opposite more than once .....................

Corrected again here.................................

Post # 99


and again ....................................

Post # 255


Post # 276


Post # 282


Post # 268


You are correct saying; if you say things over and over again does not make them magically come true. The same as if any of us ignore God's Word magically makes it untrue.

No one here is telling you that we are saved by what we do apart from faith. So your trying to build an argument that is not there. If you have no argument and people believe and agree we are all saved through Faith alone you have nothing to argue about.

We are talking about SIN here and how it will keep you OUT of God's Kingdom. If we do not REPENT of our SINS and our faith does not work by love that produces the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE you WILL be LOST. The fruit of Love is the Gift of God in those that walk in His Spirit and a sign that they are the true believers because they follow God's WOrd by faith in love.

For example God's Word says...........................

Hebrews 10
26, For IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

Hebrews 6
4, For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7, For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8, But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

1 John 2:2-4
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:3-10
3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.
7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Psalms 1
5, Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6, For the LORD knows the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Peter 2
3, And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
4, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5, And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6, And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;
7, And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Jude 1
14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Ecclesiastes 12
13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14, For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Isaiah 1
28, And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 13
9, Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 33
14, The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15, He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16, He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Proverb 8
36, But he that sins against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death

Ezekiel 18
4, Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21, But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22, All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23, Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24, But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26, When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27, Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28, Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29, Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30, Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31, Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32, For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves , and live ye.

Proverbs 28
9, He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Ezekiel 33
10, Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 , I f the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Romans 6
23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we break any one of the ten we stand guilty before God of SIN (James 2:8-11) and need to repent and seek his forgiveness (Proverbs 28:13; 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). Those that continue a life in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Many in the days of Jesus and also Paul when they shared God's Word did not want to hear it and Jesus said to them;

Matthew 13
14, And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Let us all be careful not to make the same mistakes as those in the past that followed the mainstream teachers of the day over the Word of God.

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's Word that says the 4th commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now COMMANDED to KEEP Sunday as a HOLY Day.

If there is NO scripture that says the 4th commandments is ABOLISHED and er are now COMMANDED to KEEP Sunday as a HOLY day then we should OBEY God rather than man (Acts 5:29; Romans 3:4)

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Hello LGW.

You made a critical error.

and agree we are all saved through Faith alone

We do not agree, we are not saved by faith alone, that is heresy.

We are saved by Grace, and that is the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

The Bible does not say anyone is saved by faith.

Faith is a gift in itself, even your measure of faith is granted to you.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Saved by Grace through faith, never ever saved by faith alone.

Please retract post #397.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello LGW.
You made a critical error. We do not agree, we are not saved by faith alone, that is heresy.
We are saved by Grace, and that is the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. The Bible does not say anyone is saved by faith.
Faith is a gift in itself, even your measure of faith is granted to you.
Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Saved by Grace through faith, never ever saved by faith alone.
Please retract post #397.

Now David all this post says to me is that you did not read post # 397 there is no error in it and perhaps you need to read it before posting. Ephesians 2:8 is what post # 397 is talking about.

From post # 397.....

It's never been about following the law its always been about following Christ by faith through love alone. Faith that works by love is what fulfills God's Law in those that walk in His Spirit (Romans 13:8-10). Obedience is only the fruit of faith and a sign that someone is genuinely following God's Word (Matthew 7:17-27). If you seek obedience without faith you will never attain it because this is the gift of God written on the heart (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 8:10-12). But if you believe God's Word, your faith will be counted for righteousness in God's eyes (Romans 1:17; Philippians 3:9). If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience (God's work in you) than you are still in your sins and have not seen him or known him and your faith is dead (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9). May God bless you as you seek him through His Word..........

Maybe you need to retract post # 398?

 

[klutedavid]

Now David all this post says to me is that you did not read post # 397 there is no error in it and perhaps you need to read it before posting. Ephesians 2:8 is what post # 397 is talking about.

From post # 397.....

It's never been about following the law its always been about following Christ by faith through love alone. Faith that works by love is what fulfills God's Law in those that walk in His Spirit (Romans 13:8-10). Obedience is only the fruit of faith and a sign that someone is genuinely following God's Word (Matthew 7:17-27). If you seek obedience without faith you will never attain it because this is the gift of God written on the heart (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 8:10-12). But if you believe God's Word, your faith will be counted for righteousness in God's eyes (Romans 1:17; Philippians 3:9). If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience (God's work in you) than you are still in your sins and have not seen him or known him and your faith is dead (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9). May God bless you as you seek him through His Word..........

Maybe you need to retract post # 398?

Hello LGW.

Let's get this right.

You said.

and agree we are all saved through Faith alone

I said, we are never saved by faith alone.

Then you replied.

Now David all this post says to me is that you did not read post # 397

Once again, you said, 'we are all saved through Faith alone'.

I said that what you said is incorrect, what you said is not in the Bible.

Your trying to claim that faith saves, that is heresy.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

I ask that you recant, your statement is heretical.