• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,631
7,164
✟340,595.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Even Kitchen, arch biblical maximialist and evangelical apologist that he was, never accepted any supernatural events in the bible as historical - at least, not in his scholarly writings.

Kitchen's conclusion was that large parts of the Bible are historically reliable, but that not all of it is. This is coming from his working assumption that the text should be regarded as reliable by default, unless directly falsified.

Kitchen's work was a direct attack against the biblical minimalist school, which worked from the converse assumptions (the Bible is unreliable unless directly verified) and concluded that most of the bible is historically unreliable, but parts of it are accurate.

Kitchen's book mostly ignores critical Biblical scholarship. Where he does acknowledge it, he launches stinging attacks on it (mostly via ad hominems, including accusations of antisemitism), or goes to far and gets some of it plainly wrong - see his attempt to pin down a firm date for the Exodus as an example, or his back and forth about Moses, or the 300 years he adds to the kingship of Cyrus to make it fit with his preferred chronology (which he then adds 40 years to anyway...)

I think the best summation of Kithcen's work comes from Rabbi Charles David Isbell, Ph. D and Director of Jewish Studies at Louisiana State University:

What becomes immediately apparent is that Kitchen stands as far to one edge of the stream of OT scholarship as his opponents do to the other.
...
Second, Kitchen’s own ideology is betrayed in numerous places throughout, beginning with his choice of the word "Reliability" in the title. What Kitchen means by "reliable" is instructive, for in brief, Kitchen always thinks the Old Testament means what he thinks it means.
The truth, as usual, most likely falls in the middle somewhere between strongly ideological views.


(As an aside, I had Kitchen's massive tome - a present from a friend who's a pastor, its not something I'd buy myself - and found it interesting, if highly slanted and sometimes shamefully polemic. Unfortunately, it was one of the books that I also needed to sacrifice to goodwill in my recent move. It was just too heavy and large for my new apartment. Hopefully, someone who buys it will find my margin notes useful :) )
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,441
2,688
United States
✟216,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Historical science CANNOT be discovered by repeatable, empirical experiments. That's why historical science and empirical science MUST be differentiated.

The Council of Nicaea information is obtained through historical science, which cannot be repeated in the present time.

Oz
You get stuck on this word, “repeatable.” That doesn’t mean the event in question has to happen again. It means the evidence pointing to it can be obtained repeatably.
 
Upvote 0

Skreeper

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2017
2,471
2,683
32
Germany
✟91,021.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Your evolutionary presuppositions dominate that comment.

Even Charles Darwin admitted the human eye could not have evolved by natural selection:

To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest sense (The Origin of Species 1859, p. 170, emp. added).

I love me some good old dishonest creationist quote-mining!

Here's the rest of the quote that you conveniently forgot to mention:

...Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)

Darwin continues with three more pages describing a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable.

For reference: CA113.1: Evolution of the eye.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
709
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟140,373.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
You get stuck on this word, “repeatable.” That doesn’t mean the event in question has to happen again. It means the evidence pointing to it can be obtained repeatably.

No I don't! This is a definition of empirical evidence from those in science:

'Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. Scientists record and analyze this data. The process is a central part of the scientific method' (LiveScience: Empirical evidence: A definition).​

Can the evidence of Captain James Cook sailing up the eastern coast of Australia in 1770 be obtained repeatedly? Are you claiming that different sources = repeatedly?
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
709
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟140,373.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Even Kitchen, arch biblical maximialist and evangelical apologist that he was, never accepted any supernatural events in the bible as historical - at least, not in his scholarly writings.

Kitchen's conclusion was that large parts of the Bible are historically reliable, but that not all of it is. This is coming from his working assumption that the text should be regarded as reliable by default, unless directly falsified.

Kitchen's work was a direct attack against the biblical minimalist school, which worked from the converse assumptions (the Bible is unreliable unless directly verified) and concluded that most of the bible is historically unreliable, but parts of it are accurate.

Kitchen's book mostly ignores critical Biblical scholarship. Where he does acknowledge it, he launches stinging attacks on it (mostly via ad hominems, including accusations of antisemitism), or goes to far and gets some of it plainly wrong - see his attempt to pin down a firm date for the Exodus as an example, or his back and forth about Moses, or the 300 years he adds to the kingship of Cyrus to make it fit with his preferred chronology (which he then adds 40 years to anyway...)

I think the best summation of Kithcen's work comes from Rabbi Charles David Isbell, Ph. D and Director of Jewish Studies at Louisiana State University:

What becomes immediately apparent is that Kitchen stands as far to one edge of the stream of OT scholarship as his opponents do to the other.
...
Second, Kitchen’s own ideology is betrayed in numerous places throughout, beginning with his choice of the word "Reliability" in the title. What Kitchen means by "reliable" is instructive, for in brief, Kitchen always thinks the Old Testament means what he thinks it means.
The truth, as usual, most likely falls in the middle somewhere between strongly ideological views.


(As an aside, I had Kitchen's massive tome - a present from a friend who's a pastor, its not something I'd buy myself - and found it interesting, if highly slanted and sometimes shamefully polemic. Unfortunately, it was one of the books that I also needed to sacrifice to goodwill in my recent move. It was just too heavy and large for my new apartment. Hopefully, someone who buys it will find my margin notes useful :) )

I have Kitchen's tome defending the reliability of the OT. However, Kitchen - like you and I - has a propensity to be human with not so wholistic judgments at times. An evangelical reviewer wrote this of Kitchen's book:

On the whole, Kitchen makes a good case for his thesis, but sometimes he does so at the expense of self-consistency or even by fudging on matters of historical event, especially where the supernatural is involved. Speaking of the death of Sennacherib’s army, for example, Kitchen explains the “visitation that brought sudden death to a large part of the Assyrian force,” as “food poisoning or whatever?” (p. 41). There is no word here of direct divine intervention. More serious, however, is his attempt to support a late date for the Exodus—a position for which he is well known—in light of evidence to the contrary. He dismisses Bryant Wood’s compelling arguments for an early fourteenth-century destruction of Jericho by simply asserting that P. Bienkowski “corrected” Wood, but Kitchen does not say how (p. 544 n. 89). He then ignores the three-hundred-year period from the beginning of the Conquest to the judgeship of Jephthah by deriding Jephthah as “a roughneck, an outcast” whose words are “nothing more than a brave but ignorant man’s bold bluster in favor of his people” (p. 209). Kitchen has no grounds for such an assertion, but he must in some way rid himself of the three hundred years that anchor the Conquest (and hence the Exodus) in the late fifteenth and early fourteenth centuries. Resort to begging the question in this way does not help his case (DTS book reviews).​

So what criteria would you use to determine the reliability of any document - from local newspaper to journals of a century ago, to the Bible??

Oz
 
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,441
2,688
United States
✟216,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No I don't! This is a definition of empirical evidence from those in science:

'Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. Scientists record and analyze this data. The process is a central part of the scientific method' (LiveScience: Empirical evidence: A definition).​

Can the evidence of Captain James Cook sailing up the eastern coast of Australia in 1770 be obtained repeatedly? Are you claiming that different sources = repeatedly?
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. You really need to read your own sources better. Different people using the same method getting the same results is a repetition.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
That's because you are denigrating the significance of historical evidence from a reliable source - the Old Testament.
We were talking about scientific evidence. No one here will argue that the Bible does not contain descriptions of actual historical persons and events. Whether those descriptions can be used to deduce scientific facts beyond the knowledge or intention of the author(s) is the question.
The late Kenneth Kitchen, an egyptologist, investigated the historical reliability of the OT and concluded very differently to you.
Kitchens does not support your case either.

Seems as though you have a blockage with regard to how to discover reliable sources with ancient documents. I wonder what methodology you would use to garner the reliability or otherwise of Plato's or Socrates' writings.
No one is using Plato's writings to calculate the age of the Earth or prove that Noah's flood formed the Asteroid Belt. There are no extant writings of Socrates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
Oh, even from your beliefs, it is possible that humans could be on planets aside from this one. After all, the bible could just be an account of the events relevant to this particular planet, and each planet that the deity you believe in placed humans on could have their own bible.

Not so, since there was but 1 Ark which contained the first Humans to arrive on planet Earth 11k years ago. The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the complete History of God's Creation of the Multiverse in only 6 of His Days/Ages. Travel to the rest of our Cosmos happens during the 1,000 year reign of Christ at the end of the present 6th Day. Humans will truly go where no man has gone before. Then, our Universe will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟288,596.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟288,596.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Not so, since there was but 1 Ark which contained the first Humans to arrive on planet Earth 11k years ago. The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the complete History of God's Creation of the Multiverse in only 6 of His Days/Ages. Travel to the rest of our Cosmos happens during the 1,000 year reign of Christ at the end of the present 6th Day. Humans will truly go where no man has gone before. Then, our Universe will be burned. ll Peter 3:10
The 1,000 year reign of Christ begins tomorrow.
 
Upvote 0

Skreeper

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2017
2,471
2,683
32
Germany
✟91,021.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Not so, since there was but 1 Ark which contained the first Humans to arrive on planet Earth 11k years ago. The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the complete History of God's Creation of the Multiverse in only 6 of His Days/Ages. Travel to the rest of our Cosmos happens during the 1,000 year reign of Christ at the end of the present 6th Day. Humans will truly go where no man has gone before. Then, our Universe will be burned. ll Peter 3:10

Whatever you're smoking, I want some of it.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Others and I have provided evidence but you don't accept it because of your fixation with evolutionary creation and change.

yep. actually the only possible explanation for the exsitance of a self replicating moroe is design:

N.gif



evolution cant explain how such a machine evolved.

(image from Bacterial Flagellum)
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
yep. actually the only possible explanation for the exsitance of a self replicating moroe is design:

N.gif



evolution cant explain how such a machine evolved.

(image from Bacterial Flagellum)
Not to people who don't want to know. And you can't even explain what "design" is and how it gets into the flagellum.
 
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟288,596.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
yep. actually the only possible explanation for the exsitance of a self replicating moroe is design:

N.gif



evolution cant explain how such a machine evolved.

(image from Bacterial Flagellum)
If this satisfies your intellectual needs, knock yourself out. I hear your god rewards gullibility.
 
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,441
2,688
United States
✟216,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
yep. actually the only possible explanation for the exsitance of a self replicating moroe is design:

N.gif



evolution cant explain how such a machine evolved.

(image from Bacterial Flagellum)
We’ve been through this, xianhua. Your little flagellum argument is nothing more than argument from incredulity. “I can’t believe it happened naturally, therefore Goddiddit.” It’s time to move on.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,631
7,164
✟340,595.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
So what criteria would you use to determine the reliability of any document - from local newspaper to journals of a century ago, to the Bible??

How well it matches the available evidence, whether any claims in a document can be verified or falsified, how well contemporary or near-contemporary documents agree or disagree with any claims, what implicit/explicit bias are known about the author and what the target audience is.

Standard stuff.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Divide

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2017
2,577
1,230
63
Columbus
✟96,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Where did I say anything about knowing it all and about the hiding of knowledge?

What hiding of knowledge are you talking about? Can you bring some of it out in the open? How do you know it is hidden knowledge?

No, I brought up hiding of knowledge, lol. I know you didn't say that...I did!

What am I talking about?! Bring it out in the open?...Uh, I can't, they're hiding it from me, lol!! I know it's hidden knowledge because I see a lot of what's available and it's pretty obvious that their screwin' us out of a lot more! Now you just said, that you know we don't know it all...(Me and you).

So there is more, and yeah, likely hidden deep.
 
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟277,099.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
yep. actually the only possible explanation for the exsitance of a self replicating moroe is design:

N.gif



evolution cant explain how such a machine evolved.

(image from Bacterial Flagellum)

Actually, I don't believe a God exists, therefore as far as I'm concerned your explanation is impossible.

You just need to show evidence a God and evidence that he/she has manipulated the DNA of E coli in some way.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Divide

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2017
2,577
1,230
63
Columbus
✟96,221.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It was time to move on about 6 months ago.

Prolly right, huh? Hard crowd here, most you guys don't believe in much anything beyond books. My human senses don't even agree with some books. It's all around if you could but perceive...

Books are good. I'm not knockin' books. But that's only half of this life, if that. Ears to hear, eyes to see. Look around Brother...
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.