Should a woman think marriage = kids? (as in won't marry unless kids are promised)

[chilehed]

I think you mean the word sex. Not procreation...

You think wrongly.

I do realize some denominations believe you MUST have kids or else...

I've never heard of them, but people believe a lot of strange things. Heck, a lot of people have sex and are surprised when a baby turns up. Sex is, after all, ordered toward procreation... I figured you knew that.

 

[MournfulWatcher]

I could say wanting kids to the point of not marrying/divorcing someone over it would mean you are in sin since having kids has become your idol. Just as a spouse wanting constant around the clock sex would mean they made sex their idol.


Actually the bible does not say that anywhere. However if one wants to say that then one could also say sexes primary purpose is pleasure and bonding. Its one thing that surpasses most things in terms of bringing a couple even closer. Or I suppose you could say sex has two functions then. But neither is required in the bible. I mean a sexless, childless marriage probably wouldn't be for most people. But again, its never commanded we have sex or have kids.


How do you know if God placed it? I mean most people love kids of course. But I find alot of womens feeling about kids is based on what goes on around them. For example when my wife sees a new baby on facebook, she has that urge to want a kid again briefly. Just as if I see lets say a tasty food online, it makes me want to go eat that food. Then again I am not God so maybe He did give us the instinct to want kids. Though I do find it odd He didn't give it to men. If the purpose of marriage was kids, then obviously He would have gave men the instinct to want kids.

Going back to my one point though, womans urge to do alot of things goes back to the urge to bite that apple. Not saying woman can't have self control, but even from the start woman seems to have had an issue with "wanting". Again, not saying men are different. Men have urges too. However Eve was drawn to the apple first. |

Again I'd say its just a cherry picked verse taken out of context. If you read the whole section, its about filling the earth at a time when there is practically no one on earth. This is often the problem with many christians. They pick one single verse (or even part of one) to fit their view instead of realizing many things in the bible have whole sections dedicated to what the single verse is talking about.

For example heres a random verse:
Exodus 1:16
“When you are helping the Hebrew women during childbirth on the delivery stool, if you see that the baby is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.”

Ok, since its a random verse I guess it is saying any Hebrew women that has a boy, we should kill the boy right currently? You may say "But there is more to it than that, its part of a bigger section about something else!". And my response would be "Exactly!". When verses are used by themselves, we can make almost any verse fit a view we may have.

As for the earth being filled. It is filled. There are people everywhere. And supplies are slowly dwindling. But as stated, that verse was meant for that time.

As for kids, you say they are the building block of society. Some say they are our future. Our history. Our everything. But that cannot be true since the point of our current lives is to spread the "good news" and save people. Not to have kids, or to buy a boat or to cure cancer. Granted curing cancer would be good. This is why I say people overly focused on kids are making an idol of it. When I die God will not judge me and say "You had no children, you are in sin!". He will want to know (well He already does know) how many I saved. If my harvest was plentiful or if my land was barren.

Okay, the first statement here that jumps out at me is "how do you know God placed it?". How can you possibly say that He didn't?? It's all over the Bible, especially in Genesis when God tells us to be fruitful and multiply. And later in Genesis 3:15 God said "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.” This is the very first prophecy of Jesus, who would come by Mary giving birth to Him. God is also shown to bless women through allowing them to bear children in the Bible; such is the case with Sarah and Elizabeth.

And if you say God didn't place that desire there, then how did it come about? By itself? By, God forbid, Satan? If so, everyone's entire existence is either random and meaningless, or it is evil.

You said:"However if one wants to say that then one could also say sexes primary purpose is pleasure and bonding. Its one thing that surpasses most things in terms of bringing a couple even closer. Or I suppose you could say sex has two functions then. But neither is required in the bible. I mean a sexless, childless marriage probably wouldn't be for most people. But again, its never commanded we have sex or have kids."

No it is not commanded, but for most people, the desire for sex and children is innate, because God placed it there. I don't think you can reasonably say that reproduction is not the primary function of sex, I mean, look at our biology; sex always involves the sperm attaching to the egg, which can then create an embryo, which becomes a fetus. No, this doesn't always happen, but the sperm will always seek out the egg in sex, even if nothing comes of it. Pleasure and bonding is also extremely important in sex, but reproduction is always going to be what it was largely intended for.

You say: "Going back to my one point though, womans urge to do alot of things goes back to the urge to bite that apple. Not saying woman can't have self control, but even from the start woman seems to have had an issue with "wanting". Again, not saying men are different. Men have urges too. However Eve was drawn to the apple first."

I must admit, this raised my eyebrows. It seems you are comparing a woman's desire for children to her sin nature, which is not at all equivalent. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

Do you dislike children? You seem to dislike the fact that most women want to have them.

 

[Circumcised_Heart]

You think wrongly.

I've never heard of them, but people believe a lot of strange things. Heck, a lot of people have sex and are surprised when a baby turns up. Sex is, after all, ordered toward procreation... I figured you knew that.

I'm not a Catholic, but agree more with their view on this subject. Wanting sex whilst not wanting children seems kind of selfish to me, or lustful, or something against the natural order.

 

[chilehed]

I'm not a Catholic, but agree more with their view on this subject. Wanting sex whilst not wanting children seems kind of selfish to me, or lustful, or something against the natural order.

You might be interested in studying St. Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body. Fr. John Riccardo's lecture series on it is a good place to start.

 

[Zoii]

I often will attribute this attitude women have about kids as the same reason sin was brought into this world. Eve wanting her way and biting the apple and then coursing (can't think of the spelling) Adam into biting it too. Anyways, this thread has no real point other than to share my view on this.
.

If you want to go back to original sin think about this - Eve was deceived by the snake - Adam on the other hand new full well what he was doing when he took a bite as Eve wasnt deceiving him. And this one small verse says it all for the history of Women. Eve took the rap for the whole affair and is blamed for the original sin. and it goes on and on to today with a marriage broken down again being blamed on women, or feminism, or not wanting christian traditional values, or not submitting etc etc etc

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I've known women who have been prone to miscarriage, only to have their husbands leave them. "I'm sorry; I love you, but I want a wife who can bear my children." Isn't that appalling? So it isn't always the women who are saying "kids or no deal."

 

[chilehed]

I've known women who have been prone to miscarriage, only to have their husbands leave them. "I'm sorry; I love you, but I want a wife who can bear my children."

*sigh*

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I know my view is a bit controversial but I've noticed many people are willing to split over issues like having kids. Or in most cases not even marry the person if they don't want kids. Do you think marriage equals having kids? Or do you believe something else?

I think this is an important discussion you need to have before thinking about getting married. If you don't think it is a big deal and definitely do not want kids, be honest about that. Trying to force someone to have kids who doesn't want to or vice versa really messes up the relationship. Since this person will be living in the place where you go to be sheltered from the demands from the world, you'd want them to be happy.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I know my view is a bit controversial but I've noticed many people are willing to split over issues like having kids. Or in most cases not even marry the person if they don't want kids. Do you think marriage equals having kids? Or do you believe something else?

I'll start with the obvious, the desire a woman has to have a child is crazy strong. So not having a kid is hard to accept. Which is why I find women to be so kid crazy that they ignore logic or reason on the issue. When I was looking for a good christian wife online I got no messages from anyone when my profile said "Wants kids: No". This went on for months. And the moment I switched it to "Wants kids: Maybe", suddenly I got a message every week from someone new. And one time (at another site) I said I wanted kids for sure. I got messages daily.

It wasn't shocking though I did feel women are selfish about the issue. They often say the man is the selfish one for not wanting kids. But I fail to see how. When you marry someone you do so because you want to spend your life with them, because you love them. So to say you may/may not love someone based on if they want kids goes to show the real motive behind wanting to get married. The man is simply a means to an end.

The selfishness can be seen in marriages where the husband doesn't want kids or doesn't want them yet. The woman will play games with the husband until he gives in out of guilt (she guilts him). Then when kids are born and the father isn't great at it, then the wife hates the husband despite the fact the wife forced the husband into having kids.

I don't bring all this up because of my marriage, we are doing good about not wanting kids at this point. But a few couples online at a group we are part of are fighting over the issue. One woman said if she would have known her husband didn't want kids, she would have never married him and currently refuses to have sex with him, to do chores, to help him at all until he changes his mind or divorces her.

What kind of women loves Jesus and yet acts like that to her husband? No where does the bible say marriage is about having kids. Kids if anything are a "add on" to marriage. Just like many other things are. They are optional. Now there are a few who obviously reference the whole "Go forth and multiply!" verse, but obviously they take the verse as literal and not a lesson for the people of that time, back when there were very few people on earth.

I often will attribute this attitude women have about kids as the same reason sin was brought into this world. Eve wanting her way and biting the apple and then coursing (can't think of the spelling) Adam into biting it too. Anyways, this thread has no real point other than to share my view on this.

Also I should note life isn't fair. So being told no kids is just part of life. Just as being told you have lost a kidney. Or you have lost a job. Or you have 10 days to live. Sadly more and more christians think life should go how they want instead of realizing its not about what we want, its about what He wants. Maybe He doesn't want some couples to have kids because He has bigger plans.

The Kingdom of Heaven is all about kids. There are lots of kids there from abortion that are needing parents. If people do not like kids they are not going to be happy in Heaven.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I should point out as is often the case on this forum, I sometimes will talk about a subject and defend it as if its personal. But its not. I just like seeing things from both sides then discussing it to see what everyone has to say. I mean my wife and I aren't even having any issues with the kid subject, so obviously I have no real reason to bring up this topic aside from seeing some argue about it online. As it is my wife had a miscarriage like two months ago so obviously we want and love kids.

As if both can't be combined: loving a man for who he is and desiring to bring forth children.

True, both can be combined. Well lets try a different approach with this. If you marry someone who then change their mind later on about kids, do you love them enough to stay anyways because thats what marriage is? Or do you say their love isn't as good as having kids and leave them?

I sort of circle around back to the point of way to often people (either sex) will put a value on something that they place higher than the marriage. For some kids. For some sex. For some a nice job. For some a nice home...etc. In the case of kids the spouse may be like "I'm just sad we aren't having kids. I don't know what to do anymore. Life feels so pointless!". A guilt to the other spouse that makes them feel like their love is not enough. Or their home, their job...etc.

Okay, the first statement here that jumps out at me is "how do you know God placed it?". How can you possibly say that He didn't?? It's all over the Bible, especially in Genesis when God tells us to be fruitful and multiply. And later in Genesis 3:15 God said "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.” This is the very first prophecy of Jesus, who would come by Mary giving birth to Him. God is also shown to bless women through allowing them to bear children in the Bible; such is the case with Sarah and Elizabeth.

Well first I'd say I'm not really debating if He placed it or not really. I'm more or less trying to say He also gave us the ability to have self control or to think rationally. So lets say your a poor couple living in a homeless shelter, its all you have had for years. Your spouse wanst to have a child. Do you have a child or do you say "Now is not the right time. We aren't in a good time to do this!". Of course you would perhaps think on waiting on it instead of just letting the instinct take over of wanting a child. Just as those who remain single forever do too.

The multiply thing I already covered as being a cherry picked verse out of context. The next verse was referring to a very important time referring to Jesus because of His importance. Again, not saying He didn't give us desires, though because we live in a sinful world, sometimes we think our desires MUST happen and will even claim the bible says so. Such as those who take the verse "He will give you the desires of your heart". By itself it sounds like Gods a genie who gives you everything you want. But a christian whos read their bible knows just because you have a desire doesn't always mean you get what you want.

No it is not commanded, but for most people, the desire for sex and children is innate, because God placed it there. I don't think you can reasonably say that reproduction is not the primary function of sex, I mean, look at our biology; sex always involves the sperm attaching to the egg, which can then create an embryo, which becomes a fetus. No, this doesn't always happen, but the sperm will always seek out the egg in sex, even if nothing comes of it. Pleasure and bonding is also extremely important in sex, but reproduction is always going to be what it was largely intended for.

My problem is more with the fact people say sex has only one purpose, reproduction. Because if that was the case He would have made it even more simple. And He would have taken away the pleasure end of it. Among other things. I'm saying sex has many purposes. None is higher then the other.

I must admit, this raised my eyebrows. It seems you are comparing a woman's desire for children to her sin nature, which is not at all equivalent. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

Well I was being a bit sarcastic, something I try not to do anymore since its annoying I know. Its one of those jokes that men say "Yes dear!" because its what we have done since the apple. A joke.

Do you dislike children? You seem to dislike the fact that most women want to have them.

Nah, I love children. I adore them. I love playing with them, teaching them, watching them grow. Spent my whole life surrounded by tons of children at church and through homeschool events. I truly.... badly... want to have a daughter. Circumstances for now just have it all on hold now.

I don't dislike women want to have them. I just dislike that women only think about kids when it comes to marriage instead of seeing as kids are a byproduct of marriage. For example I seen my wife and thought "I can see myself with her forever, and if one day the time is right we can have a baby!". Not "I want babies!". Maybe it comes down to the phrasing of it. I'm not good with always understanding things so if someone phrases something wrong I get confused or frustrated.

I'm not a Catholic, but agree more with their view on this subject. Wanting sex whilst not wanting children seems kind of selfish to me, or lustful, or something against the natural order.

This is a common argument and it often people are blind to the fact that when they say its selfish, they don't realize they themselves sound selfish. Wanting kids is selfish, not wanting kids is also selfish. But most don't seem to see it that way. And technically speaking wanting a child can be selfish in other ways such as if you want one but think about if your ready for one. Or if you will pass on some deadly disease. Or if you can even give them a good life...etc.

If you want to go back to original sin think about this - Eve was deceived by the snake - Adam on the other hand new full well what he was doing when he took a bite as Eve wasnt deceiving him. And this one small verse says it all for the history of Women. Eve took the rap for the whole affair and is blamed for the original sin. and it goes on and on to today with a marriage broken down again being blamed on women, or feminism, or not wanting christian traditional values, or not submitting etc etc etc

This is just a random thought and not in the bible but could one almost sort of point the finger at Eve as being the first to mess up and its proven by the fact that now women can lose babies while pregnant, have painful monthly cycles, have utterly painful births...etc? If you look at a man, despite biting the apple second, we don't seem to have as many issues. Thankfully. Again, this is all just me wondering about it and not meant as serious.

I've known women who have been prone to miscarriage, only to have their husbands leave them. "I'm sorry; I love you, but I want a wife who can bear my children." Isn't that appalling? So it isn't always the women who are saying "kids or no deal."

I agree, both sexes do it. And on more subjects then just kids too.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

50-something, no kids, never really wanted kids, glad we don't have kids, enjoy our lives as they are. Married 20 years now. Not domestic, not into kids and the whole deal. I like my nieces and nephews now that they're old enough to converse with. Never cared for the baby blobs.
Married once in my 30's. Happy with life. Don't think I'm "woman enough"? Think I'm a "feminist"...well, you just go ahead and think whatever you want...doesn't bother me at all

 

[Episaw]

I know my view is a bit controversial but I've noticed many people are willing to split over issues like having kids. Or in most cases not even marry the person if they don't want kids. Do you think marriage equals having kids? Or do you believe something else?

I'll start with the obvious, the desire a woman has to have a child is crazy strong. So not having a kid is hard to accept. Which is why I find women to be so kid crazy that they ignore logic or reason on the issue. When I was looking for a good christian wife online I got no messages from anyone when my profile said "Wants kids: No". This went on for months. And the moment I switched it to "Wants kids: Maybe", suddenly I got a message every week from someone new. And one time (at another site) I said I wanted kids for sure. I got messages daily.

It wasn't shocking though I did feel women are selfish about the issue. They often say the man is the selfish one for not wanting kids. But I fail to see how. When you marry someone you do so because you want to spend your life with them, because you love them. So to say you may/may not love someone based on if they want kids goes to show the real motive behind wanting to get married. The man is simply a means to an end.

The selfishness can be seen in marriages where the husband doesn't want kids or doesn't want them yet. The woman will play games with the husband until he gives in out of guilt (she guilts him). Then when kids are born and the father isn't great at it, then the wife hates the husband despite the fact the wife forced the husband into having kids.

I don't bring all this up because of my marriage, we are doing good about not wanting kids at this point. But a few couples online at a group we are part of are fighting over the issue. One woman said if she would have known her husband didn't want kids, she would have never married him and currently refuses to have sex with him, to do chores, to help him at all until he changes his mind or divorces her.

What kind of women loves Jesus and yet acts like that to her husband? No where does the bible say marriage is about having kids. Kids if anything are a "add on" to marriage. Just like many other things are. They are optional. Now there are a few who obviously reference the whole "Go forth and multiply!" verse, but obviously they take the verse as literal and not a lesson for the people of that time, back when there were very few people on earth.

I often will attribute this attitude women have about kids as the same reason sin was brought into this world. Eve wanting her way and biting the apple and then coursing (can't think of the spelling) Adam into biting it too. Anyways, this thread has no real point other than to share my view on this.

Also I should note life isn't fair. So being told no kids is just part of life. Just as being told you have lost a kidney. Or you have lost a job. Or you have 10 days to live. Sadly more and more christians think life should go how they want instead of realizing its not about what we want, its about what He wants. Maybe He doesn't want some couples to have kids because He has bigger plans.

Can I suggest an alternative here? In the church I was in when I got married, we didn't need to use dating sites. We were taught all we had to do was pray for a wife or husband and God would give us the one of his choosing. That was the case with me.

We have been married now for 47 years and we have rarely had a disagreement about anything major.

Another couple who got married at the time were perfect for each other because neither wanted children. They were the only ones in that boat as all the other couples wanted children and had them. Some two, some three and some four.

I was told the story of a young lady who prayed for a husband and nothing happened. She asked the Lord why and he said you haven't told me what sort of husband you want so she set out her requirements. Within six months she was dating a man that met every one of her requirements.

I have a feeling that we stress about things we were never meant to stress about so we complicate things instead of casting all our cares on Him.

 

[Zoii]

This is just a random thought and not in the bible but could one almost sort of point the finger at Eve as being the first to mess up and its proven by the fact that now women can lose babies while pregnant, have painful monthly cycles, have utterly painful births...etc? If you look at a man, despite biting the apple second, we don't seem to have as many issues. Thankfully. Again, this is all just me wondering about it and not meant as serious.
.

Well..... No I dont take that as a serious comment - unfortunately in church societies that are strongly patriarchal, your musings are taken as solid evidence and acted on accordingly.

 

[St_Worm2]

Your only evidence is a cherry picked verse based on a command for when earth had almost no one on it. My evidence already shows that verse needs to be taken in whole with the rest of the paragraphs around it. And furthermore you have not shown evidence where God says we must have children and that sex is only about children. Especially since sex is in the mix too. I'd just say you to should be careful about twisting Gods teaching to meet your views.

I think you may be confusing me with someone else in the thread, or you are reading a meaning into my words that I never intended. For instance, I never said (nor do I believe) that God intends sex to be for procreation alone.

As for the need for a married couple to have children, while the commandment is there (in v28), I believe that obedience (or the lack thereof) to that command is something that needs to be worked out privately between a husband, his wife, and God.

So, as far as I can tell, I didn't "twist" anything in my earlier statements, though I would certainly apologize if I have (if you believe I have, you'll need to point it out to me however).

And while the only Scripture I offered was the commandment and statements from Genesis 1:27-28, at least I've done that much. I will ask you one last time, if you have any clear, Biblical evidence, from either the OT or the NT that shows the commandment to be fruitful and multiply has been abolished by God, please point it out, chapter and verse. Conjecture will not do.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - you mentioned "cherry-picking" above. Please demonstrate, using Scripture, how the simple meaning of "be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth" is changed by the context of Genesis 1 that surrounds it. Thanks!

 

[Elliewaves]

You are all over the place between the thread title, and then the poll and then your OP. Very confusing......

Should a woman think marriage = kids? She may and men may think that as well. It's important that they are communicating while dating or engaged; before they marry.

Won't marry unless kids are promised? If a man or a woman want children with their spouse; they shouldn't marry someone that doesn't want children or that is not sure. If they have vastly different views, then again, before they marry they need to discuss it and see if it's an issue they can compromise on or be flexible. You don't have to marry anyone if you don't feel their callings and ministries in marriage or life don't match up with what you feel God has placed in your life to pursue. You can love someone and know that you wouldn't walk together but only pull each other apart.

Hopefully the hypothetical couple is getting premarital counseling BEFORE getting married.

If you are already married and someone changes their mind?
Then it's up to the couple to work through that. If someone divorces; this might be the big issue, but there were probably other things at play as well that impacted the marriage negatively that neither sought help for and having children or not having children would not have helped the marriage to survive.

I really hope you are not serious about becoming a marriage counselor unless you get A LOT more training and grace to deal with people that don't agree exactly with you. I can't imagine having this problem and my future spouse and I coming to get counsel about it from you; just taking what you said on this thread.

 

[Kit Sigmon]

I know my view is a bit controversial but I've noticed many people are willing to split over issues like having kids. Or in most cases not even marry the person if they don't want kids. Do you think marriage equals having kids? Or do you believe something else?

I'll start with the obvious, the desire a woman has to have a child is crazy strong. So not having a kid is hard to accept. Which is why I find women to be so kid crazy that they ignore logic or reason on the issue. When I was looking for a good christian wife online I got no messages from anyone when my profile said "Wants kids: No". This went on for months. And the moment I switched it to "Wants kids: Maybe", suddenly I got a message every week from someone new. And one time (at another site) I said I wanted kids for sure. I got messages daily.

It wasn't shocking though I did feel women are selfish about the issue. They often say the man is the selfish one for not wanting kids. But I fail to see how. When you marry someone you do so because you want to spend your life with them, because you love them. So to say you may/may not love someone based on if they want kids goes to show the real motive behind wanting to get married. The man is simply a means to an end.

The selfishness can be seen in marriages where the husband doesn't want kids or doesn't want them yet. The woman will play games with the husband until he gives in out of guilt (she guilts him). Then when kids are born and the father isn't great at it, then the wife hates the husband despite the fact the wife forced the husband into having kids.

I don't bring all this up because of my marriage, we are doing good about not wanting kids at this point. But a few couples online at a group we are part of are fighting over the issue. One woman said if she would have known her husband didn't want kids, she would have never married him and currently refuses to have sex with him, to do chores, to help him at all until he changes his mind or divorces her.

What kind of women loves Jesus and yet acts like that to her husband? No where does the bible say marriage is about having kids. Kids if anything are a "add on" to marriage. Just like many other things are. They are optional. Now there are a few who obviously reference the whole "Go forth and multiply!" verse, but obviously they take the verse as literal and not a lesson for the people of that time, back when there were very few people on earth.

I often will attribute this attitude women have about kids as the same reason sin was brought into this world. Eve wanting her way and biting the apple and then coursing (can't think of the spelling) Adam into biting it too. Anyways, this thread has no real point other than to share my view on this.

"So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.
She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate"... Genesis 3:6

Eve ate of the forbidden fruit (Bible don't say which fruit it be); she being tempted/ deceived by the evil one, this follows...James 1:14-15.

Her husband be there with her and she gave the forbidden fruit to Adam who
also ate of it.
You could easily say her husband wanted his own way as well.
Adam and Eve be in trouble before all that took place... for she added to what God has said about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...Genesis 3:2-3.
I included Adam being in trouble because he failed to correct Eve's statement in
Genesis 3:2-3 AND most notably Adam failed to rebuke the serpent.

Also I should note life isn't fair. So being told no kids is just part of life. Just as being told you have lost a kidney. Or you have lost a job. Or you have 10 days to live. Sadly more and more christians think life should go how they want instead of realizing its not about what we want, its about what He wants. Maybe He doesn't want some couples to have kids because He has bigger plans.

God gives/or appoints all of us children... some of us get to give birth to them and raise them, some get to help to co-parent, some get to adopt and or be a type of foster parent or be their guardians.

Believers are to raise up godly offspring...children can be your own or someone else's...we are in this together, there be far too many children who don't have
godly people in their life to care, provide/nurture and protect them.
If we be the Lord's then we are called to look after children who be in need....
and not all the children be toddlers either...we see this when Saul refers to
some believers as his dear children, others he called brothers... he call
Timothy his son...birthed to him through the gospel.

The Lord's brother, sister and mother in Matthew 12:49-50
"Pointing to His disciples, He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers."
"For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister
and mother.”
Our Lord said...John 19:26-27

When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing
nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.”
So from that hour, this disciple took her into his home.

Being in God's family goes beyond the superficial.

 

[Tolworth John]

Did you actually read the source articles. Wintery Knight - The site citing the so called research quotes research then goes off on its own little "women are to blame" moan.He states feminism is to blame for divorce rates, as women demand a greater level of freedom. He further states that womens emotions are also to blame saying " In my experience, young, unmarried women are less likely to have reasoned out their own life plan in a practical step-by-step manner". Except none of this was ever referred to in the research he cites.

The two research articles he refers to: One is from the Ruth Institute whos website state that they are a traditional marriage and anti-LGBT platform. They actually did zero independent research to support Wintery Knight's claim. And if they ever dp, I think it'd be fair to say they had a biased agenda.

The second "research" quoted by wintery night was from Livescience. Now while their sample sizes were insanely small (100), they did seem to be reasonable in their research - the trouble is it refutes the assertions of the original website you so love.

Live science states

men did substantially less housework than their wives, Men were controlling, and attempted to control every aspect of their wives lives. A Women's quote being: I used to be a very happy, optimistic person, and it was like he was slowly starving my soul. I didn't like the way he treated me, and finally realized that he was abusive

Men in the article were quoted saying: "I want a traditional marriage, but she sees it as controlling"

So shock horror - women dont like being abused and are sick of men who nothing to contribute to the household even when the wife earns as much and contributes as much to the household. Whats more the wife did the lions share of care for the children.

So gee: women do all the work, look after the kids, earn as much money - and you cant figure out why some women figure they can do better

Yes I read the post and the articles.

Why is it a shock or a horror to learn that men who marry often want what is discribed as a 'traditional marriage?

Have you concidered that a women who does not want a traditional view of marriage is going to view any man who does have such a view as 'controlling'.

 

[Paidiske]

The problem is that the terms "traditional," "controlling" and "abusive" often cover somewhat overlapping areas.

There's a sort of traditional marriage which is totally healthy. But often proponents of "traditional" marriage really want something which is very much to the woman's detriment. And those of us who have realised that, are often quite rightly concerned to clarify where in the semantic range a given person's meaning in using the term actually lies.

And when the men concerned go off on rants which blame women for all the evils of the world, that certainly doesn't look like it might be positioned up the healthy end.

 

[Norbert L]

I know my view is a bit controversial but I've noticed many people are willing to split over issues like having kids. Or in most cases not even marry the person if they don't want kids. Do you think marriage equals having kids? Or do you believe something else?

Your question is completely misleading, the actual question is do people (because some women also don't want kids, I've heard them say it) have the choice to want children? It's completely in line with a proper moral and more importantly Christian choice towards the pursuit of happiness. But the situation you're comments are on is somewhat different, I'm going to try my best to show you why, this issue is about shared blame and guilt.

The minute you create a narrative to guilt those who do want children, which you are suggesting they are guilty of doing, but it is an entirely different problem from the way you frame it.

The selfishness can be seen in marriages where the husband doesn't want kids or doesn't want them yet. The woman will play games with the husband until he gives in out of guilt (she guilts him). Then when kids are born and the father isn't great at it, then the wife hates the husband despite the fact the wife forced the husband into having kids.

Basically if you don't know before you get married what the other person really wants in this area of choice, then you share the blame for this problem. You're both guilty for the situation, don't just blame them. Although the situation mentioned in Hosea 4:6 has a different context, this type of lack of knowledge can also lead to the destruction of a marriage. Besides from what I'm aware of, at least some churches who offer marriage counselling prior to a couple making this covenant will plainly bring up this topic so there is no excuse later. So if afterwards one or the other spouse indicates they want or not want children later, the actual problem there is being fraudulent and lying about having children.

And there is where the tables start turning. If a person enters a marriage where they said they "maybe" they want children but afterwards start trying to frame the issue around their own actual desire of "no children" before they got married, then it is they who lied and committed fraud to their own heart in order to get married. The same applies visa versa to those who know they want children but also say maybe.

So my general advice would be that you start looking at this issue as shared blame and guilt and share that with your online married friends. Perhaps there is still hope that these situations can be resolved.

 

[salt-n-light]

I know my view is a bit controversial but I've noticed many people are willing to split over issues like having kids. Or in most cases not even marry the person if they don't want kids. Do you think marriage equals having kids? Or do you believe something else?

I'll start with the obvious, the desire a woman has to have a child is crazy strong. So not having a kid is hard to accept. Which is why I find women to be so kid crazy that they ignore logic or reason on the issue. When I was looking for a good christian wife online I got no messages from anyone when my profile said "Wants kids: No". This went on for months. And the moment I switched it to "Wants kids: Maybe", suddenly I got a message every week from someone new. And one time (at another site) I said I wanted kids for sure. I got messages daily.

It wasn't shocking though I did feel women are selfish about the issue. They often say the man is the selfish one for not wanting kids. But I fail to see how. When you marry someone you do so because you want to spend your life with them, because you love them. So to say you may/may not love someone based on if they want kids goes to show the real motive behind wanting to get married. The man is simply a means to an end.

The selfishness can be seen in marriages where the husband doesn't want kids or doesn't want them yet. The woman will play games with the husband until he gives in out of guilt (she guilts him). Then when kids are born and the father isn't great at it, then the wife hates the husband despite the fact the wife forced the husband into having kids.

I don't bring all this up because of my marriage, we are doing good about not wanting kids at this point. But a few couples online at a group we are part of are fighting over the issue. One woman said if she would have known her husband didn't want kids, she would have never married him and currently refuses to have sex with him, to do chores, to help him at all until he changes his mind or divorces her.

What kind of women loves Jesus and yet acts like that to her husband? No where does the bible say marriage is about having kids. Kids if anything are a "add on" to marriage. Just like many other things are. They are optional. Now there are a few who obviously reference the whole "Go forth and multiply!" verse, but obviously they take the verse as literal and not a lesson for the people of that time, back when there were very few people on earth.

I often will attribute this attitude women have about kids as the same reason sin was brought into this world. Eve wanting her way and biting the apple and then coursing (can't think of the spelling) Adam into biting it too. Anyways, this thread has no real point other than to share my view on this.

Also I should note life isn't fair. So being told no kids is just part of life. Just as being told you have lost a kidney. Or you have lost a job. Or you have 10 days to live. Sadly more and more christians think life should go how they want instead of realizing its not about what we want, its about what He wants. Maybe He doesn't want some couples to have kids because He has bigger plans.

I think people don't know what marriage is in the first place. That's how all these other desires (like intimacy, sex, kids, curing loneliness, etc.) becomes more prevalent and distracting than what marriage is truly about at its core. Thats how this world is able to capitalize marriage, use it for political and socioeconomic gains, and recently perverse it to suit their fantasies. Instead of looking with a humble heart into what God actually spells out about marriage, and understand it, we just quote scriptures that suit our vision and idea of what marriage should be. As Christians, we've been lazy on looking into the significance and nature of marriage, and that have left room to have marriage be self-interpreted and self-defined.

Its a covenant between the other person and God. Marriage is a testament of God and the body of Christ.There is a heavy responsibility physical and spiritually, so much examples in the bible that even among the chosen ones,it have cost them greatly.Marriage alone isn't something to take lightly. Much less having children. So to have pressure that you are require or must meet expectations of kids, are just appealing to flesh. The requirement is not biblical, we have to stop legalizing the requirement of having kids when married.

That's not to say that they shouldn't, as marriage grant them rights to be intimate and have kids. But all these acts are to bring glory to God. So is being single, it also have its own testament about God, and even that decision shouldn't be taken lightly. But a woman who would think that kids are deal-breakers, have no clue about the spiritual weight of marriage and children. That is not a heart after God.