Christians, historicity of Torah?

[cloudyday2]

Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood, but the Torah also includes the Exodus from Egypt and the Jewish Laws. For me, the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective. And the Jewish Laws are equally uninspiring. However, Moses and the Laws are absolutely central to Judaism, and Jesus was Jewish. Jesus speaks of Moses, and Jesus even talks with Moses in the Transfiguration.

How do you Christians fit the Torah into your system?

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood, but the Torah also includes the Exodus from Egypt and the Jewish Laws. For me, the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective. And the Jewish Laws are equally uninspiring. However, Moses and the Laws are absolutely central to Judaism, and Jesus was Jewish. Jesus speaks of Moses, and Jesus even talks with Moses in the Transfiguration.

How do you Christians fit the Torah into your system?

Actually I would have to disagree on the "many Christians don't believe" aspect of the first sentence as they are fairly important to the concept of Christ, original sin, and God's judgment. Your second sentence is your opinion, as is the 3rd sentence. You clearly don't believe them. It's ok. But I am not truly understanding your question, as the phrase "Torah" is typically used by those who practice Judaism only, whereas Christians, I believe, tend to refer to books according to authors. Those in question being referred to as the books of Moses. I would not even know where to begin addressing your question, as I'm unfamiliar with the "system" you are referring to. If it is a broad question, then I would venture to say that the Law came in the Old Testament, and was fulfilled by the New Testament. I hope that clears that up.

 

[cloudyday2]

Actually I would have to disagree on the "many Christians don't believe" aspect of the first sentence as they are fairly important to the concept of Christ, original sin, and God's judgment.

If you believe the Garden of Eden and Noah's Flood were historical, then you probably believe God literally revealed Laws to Moses and delivered the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt, so this question doesn't apply to you as much. Have you heard the expression "[whatever] is a slippery slope"? That's what I'm asking about here. Many Christians have divested themselves from the burden of believing in the Garden of Eden and Noah's Flood, but it's a slippery slope. If Christians divest themselves from the historicity of Moses and the Jewish Law, then I don't know how a historical Jesus is possible. Even as allegory the story of Moses is uninspiring and the Laws are primitive and arbitrary. Of course you apparently believe that the historicity of the Garden of Eden and Noah's Flood are also crucial features, so you are not struggling on the slippery slope.

Does that explain the question better? (I hope I am not misunderstanding your beliefs.)

 

[FreeAtLast]

Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood, but the Torah also includes the Exodus from Egypt and the Jewish Laws. For me, the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective. And the Jewish Laws are equally uninspiring. However, Moses and the Laws are absolutely central to Judaism, and Jesus was Jewish. Jesus speaks of Moses, and Jesus even talks with Moses in the Transfiguration.

How do you Christians fit the Torah into your system?

Hi! I see that you are an agnostic and that helps to understand your question better.

All the Christians that I know, DO believe 100% that the Bible (old and new covenants) are literal, factual and historical. I don't know any who disbelieve the accounts of the Garden of Eden or Noah's flood.

Now, as to your more specific question, about removing Moses and the Mosiac Law from Christian beliefs, again, the ones I know do not consider these allegories, but facts that no longer apply to them, since the Mosaic Law was replaced by the New Covenant ushered in by Yeshua (Jesus).

So, for those that you know who disbelieve the Old Covenant as truth, I would question how they view the New Covenant. If they believe it is truth, historical and factual, they must believe the Old is as well, because the Old is quoted often through the New as fact, even referring to the Garden and Noah's flood and the Mosaic Law, all as fact.

If they DON'T believe the New Covenant is fact, and specifically G-d's inspired Word (2 Timothy 3:16), then I I question whether they are, in fact, Christians, because they must believe in the REAL Jesus (the one of the Bible), not the many variations made up by humans floating around out there.

Bottom line, only G-d knows who is and who isn't a born again Believer, but if someone does not accept the New Covenant, I would say there is question. If they accept the New and reject the Old, they just need to ask G-d to show them.

Does that help any?

 

[cloudyday2]

Does that help any?

Thanks, that is helpful. You might be underestimating the number of Christians who don't believe in the Garden of Eden and Noah's Flood. I don't know the actual percentages, but there seem to be a lot of them.

Anyway, it seems to me that the story of Exodus is much more central to Judaism. Moses as God's prophet smites the foreign oppressors with plagues, leads God's chosen people to freedom, conquers the promised land, and gives them 613 laws to maintain their privileged status with God. The Exodus is just as difficult to believe as Noah's Flood, but unlike Noah's Flood it is not a very good story or allegory (by modern moral and multicultural standards).

 

[FreeAtLast]

Thanks, that is helpful. You might be underestimating the number of Christians who don't believe in the Garden of Eden and Noah's Flood. I don't know the actual percentages, but there seem to be a lot of them.

Well, that's relative. Take ALL the Believers in all the world and poll them. Then we can see. I've been around for many years and interacted with many who call themselves Believers, and have YET to find someone who truly was a Christian that did not believe the Bible (Old and New Covenants) were factual.

Anyway, it seems to me that the story of Exodus is much more central to Judaism. Moses as God's prophet smites the foreign oppressors with plagues, leads God's chosen people to freedom, conquers the promised land, and gives them 613 laws to maintain their privileged status with God. The Exodus is just as difficult to believe as Noah's Flood, but unlike Noah's Flood it is not a very good story or allegory (by modern moral and multicultural standards).

As a Jew, I can tell you that is not accurate. All of it is central to Judaism and it is all contained in the Tanakh, what Christians call the Old Testament.

 

[cloudyday2]

As a Jew, I can tell you that is not accurate. All of it is central to Judaism and it is all contained in the Tanakh, what Christians call the Old Testament.

IDK, it seems to me that we could remove the story of Jonah and the whale without doing any great damage to Judaism. Similarly we could remove the story of the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark. But if we remove the story of Exodus and the 613 laws, then what is left of Judaism?

 

[FreeAtLast]

IDK, it seems to me that we could remove the story of Jonah and the whale without doing any great damage to Judaism. Similarly we could remove the story of the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark. But if we remove the story of Exodus and the 613 laws, then what is left of Judaism?

Well, first off, Judaism does believe the "stories" are fact and show G-d's attributes, His plans, His dealings with people and our history. You cannot remove any of them without negatively affecting that. You see, in both Judaism and Christianity, it's not about the historical facts as much as the WHO WHAT WHERE WHEN AND WHY of them, behind it.

And in both belief systems, it comes back to G-d. Who He is. What He wants to show us, teach us, tell us about Himself, where He chose to take us, when he interacted with us how did it change the world, us, and why did He do what He did?

And in both systems, faith in G-d is the foundation that cannot be changed. It's not about the particulars of the accounts (stories), it's about faith in the G-d who is central in it all and what that means for us today and individually. The "stories" (actually accounts) teach us more about our G-d and that is awesome. We cannot remove anything and still stand on faith.

Does that help?

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, first off, Judaism does believe the "stories" are fact and show G-d's attributes, His plans, His dealings with people and our history. You cannot remove any of them without negatively affecting that. You see, in both Judaism and Christianity, it's not about the historical facts as much as the WHO WHAT WHERE WHEN AND WHY of them, behind it.

And in both belief systems, it comes back to G-d. Who He is. What He wants to show us, teach us, tell us about Himself, where He chose to take us, when he interacted with us how did it change the world, us, and why did He do what He did?

And in both systems, faith in G-d is the foundation that cannot be changed. It's not about the particulars of the accounts (stories), it's about faith in the G-d who is central in it all and what that means for us today and individually. The "stories" (actually accounts) teach us more about our G-d and that is awesome. We cannot remove anything and still stand on faith.

Does that help?

Thanks for making the effort to explain. I don't understand how people can believe that.

I grew up as a Christian, so I believed those things as a child. When I began reading the Bible, I became very suspicious. Most of my adult life I have been irreligious. Then when I thought God was talking to me a few years ago, I tried to believe the Bible again, but it didn't work. I just don't understand how people make the Bible into anything constructive. Judaism saved the Bible by essentially throwing it away and replacing it with Midrash. A modern Jew can say he/she believes in the Bible, but this is a Bible viewed through a prism of Midrash. That's just my opinion FWIW

 

[FreeAtLast]

Thanks for making the effort to explain. I don't understand how people can believe that.

I grew up as a Christian, so I believed those things as a child. When I began reading the Bible, I became very suspicious. Most of my adult life I have been irreligious. Then when I thought God was talking to me a few years ago, I tried to believe the Bible again, but it didn't work. I just don't understand how people make the Bible into anything constructive. Judaism saved the Bible by essentially throwing it away and replacing it with Midrash. A modern Jew can say he/she believes in the Bible, but this is a Bible viewed through a prism of Midrash. That's just my opinion FWIW

How people can believe something is a personal difference. I grew up Jewish, but knew there was something missing in my life. I did not know the Bible at all, we only used prayers, but I did know the "stories" and loved them.

However, one day I watched a Rock Opera called Jesus Christ Superstar. So, I was telling my friends about this great entertaining rock opera and they floored me when they said that was from the Bible! Huh?

That was the first time I heard of Jesus and His story. And I read the Bible, I mean REALLY read the Bible, I asked G-d to show me the truth about Yeshua and if He was really real. He did and He is. And I gave my life to Yeshua and the Bible came alive to me. I believe every word of it is true, 100% and it comes from G-d Himself, through people, for us.

Again, Jews come in all shapes, sizes and beliefs, as do Christians. We / they don't all believe the same things.

Thanks for the gracious conversation, have a blessed day!

 

[curiouskay]

Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood?

There was a "great flood". Scientific evidence of this has been found. Whether it is "the great flood" is debatable.
Evidence of the Great Flood has been found; or not?
See post #1
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/158957-great-biblical-flood-real-not.html

the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective.?

When it comes to the "exodus", the following suggests that it did indeed occur. After Moses sat down by a well he gathered up his people and indeed fled from Egypt marking the exodus.

And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out to his brothers, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brothers. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand. And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Why smite you your fellow?

Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelled in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.

Your comments are welcome -

 

[curiouskay]

Thanks for making the effort to explain. I don't understand how people can believe that.

The “Bible” is split up into two sections; the Old Testament and the New Testament. The old Testament is a collection of God talking to the Jewish people, telling them what they should and should not do. God left it up to them to make the right choices to get His grace.

The New Testament is a collection of statements by Jesus referring to the Old Testament. It was Jesus’ reopening up old accounts of God and the Jewish people that got Him killed.

In my view -

 

[PloverWing]

Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood, but the Torah also includes the Exodus from Egypt and the Jewish Laws. For me, the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective. And the Jewish Laws are equally uninspiring. However, Moses and the Laws are absolutely central to Judaism, and Jesus was Jewish. Jesus speaks of Moses, and Jesus even talks with Moses in the Transfiguration.

How do you Christians fit the Torah into your system?

I may be the kind of person your question was addressed to, as I do not think that the Garden of Eden and the flood of Noah were literal historical events.

On the Jewish law: The body of laws in Exodus-Deuteronomy seem to be a collection of laws that were built up over time. As I understand it, the current scholarly assessment is that the books were crafted into their final form during the exile, but that they are based on earlier material. One element that stands out to me is that a number of the laws refer to land and crops. These would have to post-date the Israelites' nomadic period, hence post-date Moses, but they would need to pre-date the exile; references to land and farming only make sense if the people are settled onto land that they own. There are other literary elements as well -- the names used for God, and so on -- that seem to reflect development of the text over years.

On the historicity of the Exodus: I'm willing to yield to the expertise of the archaeologists on this one; archaeology isn't my field, and I haven't researched it in detail. It's possible that the Exodus story is built on a historical event, even if the exact details don't match what's written in the book of Exodus. I don't know of a good reason to think that Moses didn't exist at all.

On the value of the Exodus and the Law for us: If I had been born into slavery, I can imagine that the Exodus would be very inspirational for me. I gather that it was an important story for the American slaves. The Law seems to me a good first draft of rules for moral, civilized life. I wouldn't want to live under the Mosaic Law now; among other things, I've come to expect a society that gives more civil rights to women and that exercises capital punishment much more rarely. But it's a good start: exact justice for violent crimes instead of endless blood feuds; rules to ensure that children have parents who are assigned to care for them, instead of rape followed by neglect; rules to govern ownership of property, instead of the biggest guy in town getting to steal everything; and so on.

 

[curiouskay]

God literally revealed Laws to Moses and delivered the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt,

They were not slaves as some want you to believe.

(Gen 41:39 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath showed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

(Gen 41:40 KJV) Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

(Gen 41:42 KJV) And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

(Gen 41:44 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Gen 41:46 KJV) And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh King of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.

(Gen 42:1 KJV) Now when Jacob saw that there was corn in Egypt, Jacob said unto his sons, why do ye look one upon another?

(Gen 42:2 KJV) And he said, Behold, I have heard that there is corn in Egypt: get you down thither, and buy for us from thence;

(Gen 42:5 KJV) And the sons of Israel came to buy corn among those that came: for the famine was in the land of Canaan.

(Gen 42:25 KJV) Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way:

(Gen 45:20 KJV) Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

(Gen 45:21 KJV) And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

(Gen 47:1 KJV) Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father [ISRAEL] and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:3 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.

(Gen 47:4 KJV) They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:5 KJV) And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father [ISRAEL] and thy brethren are come unto thee:

(Gen 47:6 KJV) The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

(Gen 47:11 KJV) And Joseph placed his father [ISRAEL] and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.

The above clearly indicates that the Israelites were not "slaves" as some want you to believe.

At least in my point of view

 

[Hieronymus]

Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood, but the Torah also includes the Exodus from Egypt and the Jewish Laws. For me, the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective. And the Jewish Laws are equally uninspiring. However, Moses and the Laws are absolutely central to Judaism, and Jesus was Jewish. Jesus speaks of Moses, and Jesus even talks with Moses in the Transfiguration.

How do you Christians fit the Torah into your system?

enough evidence to support the Bible from Genesis 9 or 10 onwards.
"Unbelievable" or "unispiring" are hardly serious arguments for it being untrue.

 

[cloudyday2]

On the historicity of the Exodus: I'm willing to yield to the expertise of the archaeologists on this one; archaeology isn't my field, and I haven't researched it in detail. It's possible that the Exodus story is built on a historical event, even if the exact details don't match what's written in the book of Exodus. I don't know of a good reason to think that Moses didn't exist at all.

Apparently archaeologists have been unable to find any evidence for the Exodus or the conquest of the Promised Land. The latest thinking is that the Hebrews were just one of the Canaanite tribes. I have read a theory by Richard Elliott Friedman that perhaps only the Levites had migrated from Egypt, because some of their names sound Egyptian. Another theory I have read in a book "From Gods to God" ( From Gods to God: How the Bible Debunked, Suppressed, or Changed Ancient Myths and Legends by Avigdor Shinan ) is that the name "Moses" is Egyptian (standard Jewish theory says it comes from Hebrew for "water"). Moses in Egyptian meant "son of", so Moses might mean "son of the unnamed" i.e. "son of Yahweh". Apparently there are ancient traditions in Judaism that portray Moses as a demigod more like Jesus. It's interesting too, because Jesus was portrayed as the new Moses. (That's partly my own speculation, the authors of the book did not go that far.)

The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel.[26] There is no indication that the Israelites ever lived in Ancient Egypt, the Sinai Peninsula shows almost no sign of any occupation for the entire 2nd millennium BCE, and even Kadesh-Barnea, where the Israelites are said to have spent 38 years, was uninhabited prior to the establishment of the Israelite monarchy.

The Exodus - Wikipedia

On the value of the Exodus and the Law for us: If I had been born into slavery, I can imagine that the Exodus would be very inspirational for me. I gather that it was an important story for the American slaves. The Law seems to me a good first draft of rules for moral, civilized life.

IMO, the Law was a bigger deal to Jews and therefore a bigger deal to Jesus. Jesus said He wouldn't change a thing in the Law, and that He had come to fulfill the Law (or something like that). Jesus was not talking about the Law as merely a first draft of a human document. I have heard N.T. Wright say that the ministry of Jesus was an effort to embody the nation of Israel in the suffering servant passages of Isaiah. Apparently Jesus thought that fulfilling those passages would lead to God's restoration of Israel and the triumph of light over darkness. ... The problem is that the Law just seems to be very clunky and uninspiring. I would expect a divine Jesus to be a little less "Jewish" given what Judaism was in His day.

 

[curiouskay]

so was an effort to embody the nation of Israel in the suffering servant passages of Isaiah.

Note: there was no nation of Israel prior to 1947ad. In Biblical history "Israel" was a person, not a place.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Iacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God, and with men, and hast preuailed.

 

[Robban]

Note: there was no nation of Israel prior to 1947ad. In Biblical history "Israel" was a person, not a place.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Iacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God, and with men, and hast preuailed.

A totally at random clip that lay close to hands, from todays recital of Psalms,

chapter 78,
70," and He took David His servant , and took from the sheep corrals,

71, from following the nursing ewes,
He brought him to shepherd His Nation,

Jacob, Israel His inheritance."

Go on, say it is all made up, that too.


The entire people of Israel comprise a single soul,
only the bodies seperate.

 

[JackRT]

All the Christians that I know, DO believe 100% that the Bible (old and new covenants) are literal, factual and historical. I don't know any who disbelieve the accounts of the Garden of Eden or Noah's flood.

Let my introduce myself. I have been a Christian for over 70 years and I am one such. I am far from alone in my understanding because I think the majority of Christians think the same. It is really only in some churches in the USA that a literal inerrant understanding of scripture has gained any real traction.

 

[PloverWing]

Alas, we've reached the edge of my knowledge about the origins of ancient Israel. It would be interesting to read N.T. Wright's comments on the subject, though; he's one of those authors that I've Been Meaning To Get Around To for some time now.