Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

[FreeAtLast]

Shalom y'all,

I've been discussing with an SDA who states that Sunday worship of G-d is man-made tradition, breaking G-d's commandments and is a sin.

I have asked repeatedly for Scripture which proves that claim and have yet to receive it. What I got was some Scriptures not related at all.

So, instead, I'm asking all you Sabbath and Law-keepers to help me out here with some GRACIOUS discussion on this topic. Please don't copy/ paste SDA websites and flood a bunch of lists of Scriptures. I'm seeking REAL discussion, in a gracious manner, if you're up for it!

And, I'll share why I believe Sunday worship, or Monday worship or Tuesday worship of G-d is not only fine, but encouraged and sanctioned by G-d's Word, not the opinions of man.
Sunday worship of G-d is NOT breaking His commands, nor is it a sin in any way shape or form.

G-d's words:

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight," (Acts 20:7).

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come," (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

I was in the Spirit on the L-rd’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea," (Revelation 1:10-11).

Man's words, but truth regarding the history:
"Sunday is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. It was the Christians who celebrated Yeshua's resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Shalom y'all,

G-d's words:

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight," (Acts 20:7).

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come," (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

I was in the Spirit on the L-rd’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea," (Revelation 1:10-11).

Man's words, but truth regarding the history:
"Sunday is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. It was the Christians who celebrated Yeshua's resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

Shalom! There is of course precedence from the beginning for gathering together on the first day of the week, for it was on that day that Yeshua rose from the dead. However, the first day is not Shabbat, the 7th day is.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Shalom! There is of course precedence from the beginning for gathering together on the first day of the week, for it was on that day that Yeshua rose from the dead. However, the first day is not Shabbat, the 7th day is.

Yes, exactly. I did not state that the 1st day of the week is Sabbath. So please expound on your reply.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, exactly. I did not state that the 1st day of the week is Sabbath. So please expound on your reply.

Not you, but some people thinK the 1st day is now the Sabbath day.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Not you, but some people thinK the 1st day is now the Sabbath day.

Good point. But, the truth is, it's not the Sabbath.

So how does worshiping on the 1st day of the week violate G-d's commandments and thus be sin is my question and I'm looking for Scripture to back up that claim.

 

[Almost there]

There is rest, and there is worship. And what, really, is "worship".

Why can't I rest on Saturday, go to church on Sunday, and enjoy worshiping and basking in the "rest" in Jesus seven days a week?

 

[RaymondG]

Worshiping on Sunday would only be breaking a commandment if there was a commandment "Thou shalt not worship on a Sunday." Since this is not the case, worshiping on Sunday has no connection to the Sabbath commandment.....unless one believe that Sunday worship is completing it.

 

[SAAN]

Shalom y'all,

I've been discussing with an SDA who states that Sunday worship of G-d is man-made tradition, breaking G-d's commandments and is a sin.

I have asked repeatedly for Scripture which proves that claim and have yet to receive it. What I got was some Scriptures not related at all.

So, instead, I'm asking all you Sabbath and Law-keepers to help me out here with some GRACIOUS discussion on this topic. Please don't copy/ paste SDA websites and flood a bunch of lists of Scriptures. I'm seeking REAL discussion, in a gracious manner, if you're up for it!

And, I'll share why I believe Sunday worship, or Monday worship or Tuesday worship of G-d is not only fine, but encouraged and sanctioned by G-d's Word, not the opinions of man.
Sunday worship of G-d is NOT breaking His commands, nor is it a sin in any way shape or form.

G-d's words:

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight," (Acts 20:7).

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come," (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

I was in the Spirit on the L-rd’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea," (Revelation 1:10-11).

Man's words, but truth regarding the history:
"Sunday is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. It was the Christians who celebrated Yeshua's resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

There is nothing wrong with Sunday worship, as there is no verse anywhere in the bible, that states its a sin to worship on Sunday, I think most arguments go about what people are doing about their Saturday in regards of the command to take a day of rest.


IN CONTEXT:

The whole issue in Romans 14 is about fasting and choosing what days they wanted to eat meat or not.

Romans 14
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas.
2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food, but those who have doubts eat only vegetables.
3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them.
4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.

6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Its NOT about picking a day of worship, as the Sabbath isnt even being debated in the entire book or Romans and they ALL knew back then which day was the Sabbath.

---

Colossians 2:8-17
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.


11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.


Are the commands of God philosophy or empty deceit?
Are the commands of God tradition of men, basic principles of the world?
Are the commands of God not according to Christ?


It is clear the issue in Colossians is, Paul is talking to new converts to the faith that used to be pagans and are now following Christ, so in their pagan society he is telling them NOT to let anyone judge them for keeping the commands of God like new moons, the Sabbath or Feast Days. They are all a shadow of what is to come in Christ.

Col 2:16 is saying to not let anyone judge you for actually keeping the Sabbath, not dont let anyone judge your for not keeping it. Thats like saying dont let anyone judge you for stealing, adultery, coveting. When you read Col 2 from verse 1 to 16 and the context makes much more sense.

---

There is no where in the bible that states Jesus, in his 40 days after the Resurrection, went around starting up Sunday churches.

Acts 20:7

7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

-In regards to Acts 20:7 the fact that Paul met up with them and spoke til midnight shows that Paul showed up when the Sabbath ended on Saturday and spoke with them until midnight when it was now considered the 1st day of the week. This was a one time example and not a weekly occurrence or Sunday morning church services.

---

1 Corinthians 16:1-2
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


- There was a famine going on in Jerusalem, so Paul was taking up an offering for them. He might have done this weekly, but this verse was not an example that everyone gathered together for a Sunday morning worship service to collect tithes and offerings.

---

There is no proof anywhere in scriptures that John was referring to Sunday when he said the Lords Day, Lords Day being Sunday is pretty much 1st century Christianity and RCC doctrine. Lord of the Sabbath is what Sabbatarians will use to say the Lords Day is Saturday. The Lords Day could have even been a Feast Day, John was referring to, as those are Sabbaths as well.


There is nothing wrong with going to church on Sunday, since there is no command against that, but its just tradition and not something that they were doing in the bible days.

 

[FreeAtLast]

There is rest, and there is worship. And what, really, is "worship".

Why can't I rest on Saturday, go to church on Sunday, and enjoy worshiping and basking in the "rest" in Jesus seven days a week?

Actually, you can according to the Scriptures. Amen!!

However, I'm responding to those Sabbath-keepers who have been arguing that if we attend a worship service on Sunday, we are breaking G-d's commands, in sin and guilty of elevating man-made traditions over G-d's Word. I'm inviting them to prove these claims by Scripture and enter into mature, gracious discussion.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Worshiping on Sunday would only be breaking a commandment if there was a commandment "Thou shalt not worship on a Sunday." Since this is not the case, worshiping on Sunday has no connection to the Sabbath commandment.....unless one believe that Sunday worship is completing it.

Exactly, yes!

 

[FreeAtLast]

There is nothing wrong with Sunday worship, as there is no verse anywhere in the bible, that states its a sin to worship on Sunday, I think most arguments go about what people are doing about their Saturday in regards of the command to take a day of rest.

However, that is not how it has been presented to me by Sabbath-keepers. And what people do on the Sabbath is not required any longer, that is the point. It is between them and G-d and a personal, optional choice, not a requirement thanks to Yeshua's NEW Covenant commands.


IN CONTEXT:

The whole issue in Romans 14 is about fasting and choosing what days they wanted to eat meat or not.

In particular, Paul included adherence to the Law of Moses and people judging Believers for what day they esteemed as well as what they ate. We cannot ignore or disregard Paul's words since he included these important specific parts of this. We have the freedom to choose now.

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Its NOT about picking a day of worship, as the Sabbath isnt even being debated in the entire book or Romans and they ALL knew back then which day was the Sabbath.

Not true. Romans' letters were to a mixed Messianic Jewish and Gentile church.

2. The Composition of the church in Rome was probably mixed (Jewish/Gentile)
a. Rather than one large church, the Romans seem to have been made up of five household churches:
1) Five households are greeted (16:5,10,11,14,15)
2) Paul does not address the letter to the “Church” at (cf. 15 (1:7).
b. The Romans were made up of both Jews and Gentiles (with a probable emphasis upon Gentiles)
1) Paul writes to Gentiles
a) Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles (1:5; 11:3; 16
b) Paul speaks to Gentiles who receive mercy through Jewish unbelief (11:12-13)
c) Paul compares the Romans with other Gentiles, not just Gentiles (1:12-14)
d) Paul refers to the Jews as “my” brethren, and not “our” brethren (9:3)
e) Out of the twenty-four names in chapter 16, over one half are Latin and Greek

There is no indication that the Gentiles were observing Sabbath. And yes, Paul's words ARE about not judging others for what day they do unto the L-rd.

There is no where in the bible that states Jesus, in his 40 days after the Resurrection, went around starting up Sunday churches.

LOL! Excuse me? Is this a serious response to Scripture? I think not.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

IN CONTEXT:

The whole issue in Romans 14 is about fasting and choosing what days they wanted to eat meat or not.

Romans 14
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas.
2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food, but those who have doubts eat only vegetables.
3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them.
4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.

6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Its NOT about picking a day of worship, as the Sabbath isnt even being debated in the entire book or Romans and they ALL knew back then which day was the Sabbath.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

True. I think also that he was saying that gentiles can be gentiles and eat what gentiles eat, etc...and Jewish believers should be Jews and eat kosher, etc. We have some of the same problems to this day...gentile Christians trying to make Jewish believers into gentiles and vice versa!

 

[Bob S]

True. I think also that he was saying that gentiles can be gentiles and eat what gentiles eat, etc...and Jewish believers should be Jews and eat kosher, etc. We have some of the same problems to this day...gentile Christians trying to make Jewish believers into gentiles and vice versa!

Do you believe eating kosher enhances your getting into Heaven? If it is not a sin for gentiles to eat, lets say pork, why would it be a sin for a Jew? Are Jews still under Torah? If so why?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Do you believe eating kosher enhances your getting into Heaven? If it is not a sin for gentiles to eat, lets say pork, why would it be a sin for a Jew? Are Jews still under Torah? If so why?

Absolutely not. Because we were commanded not to. Yes. Because we were commanded to, not because we have to but because we want to. It is a joy, not a burden. Shabbat Shalom!

 

[FreeAtLast]

Absolutely not. Because we were commanded not to. Yes. Because we were commanded to, not because we have to but because we want to. It is a joy, not a burden. Shabbat Shalom!

Are you Jewish?

So, you believe that born again Jewish Believers in Yeshua are required to observe the Law of Moses?

 

[Doug Melven]

The Sabbath is not about a day of the week. It is about Christ.
Christ is our Sabbath. Col 2:17 says that the Sabbath day was a shadow, but the substance is Christ.
So don't rest in your ability to keep the law, it is impossible, rest in Christ.
Hebrews 3 and 4 bring this out very clearly.
The promised land was a picture of God's rest that the unbelieving Israelites could not enter.
In Hebrews 4:3-4 God makes the promised land and the Sabbath the same.
Jesus said in Matt 11:28-30 that He would give us rest.
So, In order for a Christian to keep the Sabbath, which he should do, he should rest in Christ and His finished work.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Are you Jewish?

So, you believe that born again Jewish Believers in Yeshua are required to observe the Law of Moses?

Not required per se, not as an "obligation" for salvation. The 10 Commandments are part of the law. The Commandments/Torah are now written in our hearts...

 

[FreeAtLast]

The Sabbath is not about a day of the week. It is about Christ.
Christ is our Sabbath. Col 2:17 says that the Sabbath day was a shadow, but the substance is Christ.
So don't rest in your ability to keep the law, it is impossible, rest in Christ.
Hebrews 3 and 4 bring this out very clearly.
The promised land was a picture of God's rest that the unbelieving Israelites could not enter.
In Hebrews 4:3-4 God makes the promised land and the Sabbath the same.
Jesus said in Matt 11:28-30 that He would give us rest.
So, In order for a Christian to keep the Sabbath, which he should do, he should rest in Christ and His finished work.

Amen and amen!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So don't rest in your ability to keep the law, it is impossible, rest in Christ.

I don't. I try and keep it BECAUSE of Yeshua.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Not required per se, not as an "obligation" for salvation. The 10 Commandments are part of the law. The Commandments/Torah are now written in our hearts...

Again, are you Jewish? That makes a difference if you say that the Law of Moses is required for Jews but not for Gentiles.

Required means it is breaking the Law not to do it. Is that what you're saying? If so, that's what I'm saying when I say "required". Not for salvation, but as a Law, required to adhere to it.