Mueller Files First Charges

[redleghunter]

What...? Donald has only “the best people”, don’t you know...?

Papadopoulus seems to embody that adage that ‘it’s just as well that most crooks are dumb’....

Well you have a point. The summer 2016 Trump campaign was a blundering disaster. I admit they Forrest Gumped their way to the nomination. Then Hillary did all she could to lose it from there.

 

[camille70]

It tells me one other fact. The one I brought up during the GOP primaries last year. The Trump campaign going into the convention was a neophyte hodgepodge of wannabes who really thought their chances of winning were slim to none.

I opined how team Trump was months behind team Clinton on get out the vote and presidential elections handlers. She had Obama's model and in no way was a Trump campaign going to get the folks needed to compete. That was my mild rant after Trump destroyed the GOP field. Which of course I have egg on my face since Team Trump Forest Gumped their way to victory with a lot of help from Team Hillary in the last 3 months.

So these recent indictments tell me I was partially correct in that no one was properly vetting the team members of the Trump campaign. That's the real story here and the real concern we should all have.

I agree they didn't think they were going to win. However, I also believe they were willing to cheat or get help from anyone to do so. (Edit: the people around Trump at least. I don't think Trump really wanted to win.) We've been complaining of their vetting from day 1. Did you miss the threads about how the GOP wanted to bypass all the ethics screenings to get his people confirmed before any and all paperwork was done? Or Obama warning Trump not to hire Flynn and he did it anyway? The ethics office director resigned over how the administration was behaving.

 

[bhsmte]

Well you have a point. The summer 2016 Trump campaign was a blundering disaster. I admit they Forrest Gumped their way to the nomination. Then Hillary did all she could to lose it from there.

I dont think even trump himself, thought he had a realistic chance of winning.

 

[withwonderingawe]

It is not illegal for the clinton campaign to hire fusion for research on the opposition, just as it isnt illegal for trumps people to communicate or meet with russians.

What is illegal, is to conspire with another party, to actually do something illegal.

*To collude does not necessarily mean something unlawful, two scientist can collude to discover something. The term collusion has by use the connotation of something deceitful and perhaps illegal.

But to conspire means to organize with others in a secret agreement to do something illegal or cause harm to another. Sort of like Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Schultz conspiring against Sanders and rigging the primary.

Mueller will have to prove conspiracy to bring collusion charges against Trump.

 

[mark kennedy]

Scope pertains to what is relevant to the investigation.

A foriegn agent of the pro-Russian Ukraine to the tune of millions of dollars is certainly within the scope of the investigation.

The powers of the office allow the special counsel to bring charges forward if a crime was discovered while operating within the scope. Many fail to realize such.

Whats not to realize, Manfort hasnt been straight about any of this.

Within the scope of the investigation no charges have been brought forward in the 2016 election collusion claims. None. Yet.

It seems to me that criminal charges are being brought specifically related to collusion. For them to be brought this soon in the investigation is a first.

Now apply the above to a home no knock raid on a US citizen with no prior convictions who already handed over hundreds of documents pertaining to his time in the Trump campaign. Meaning nothing was found or released on Manafort regarding his tenure with Trump. Yet a raid on a private residence turned up unrelated documents which led to an indictment.

We don't really know what the actual evidence is yet but a no knock warrent means a judge was convinced the FBI needed the shock and awe.

When Ken Star did this nonsense in the 90s the liberals were all up in arms about the 4th amendment and fishing expeditions. Why now the silence?

An investigation into a savings and loan scam results in an impeachment over personal indiscretions that were completely unrelated. Your not comparing apples to apples

 

[Allandavid]

*To collude does not necessarily mean something unlawful, two scientist can collude to discover something. The term collusion has by use the connotation of something deceitful and perhaps illegal.

But to conspire means to organize with others in a secret agreement to do something illegal or cause harm to another. Sort of like Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Schultz conspiring against Sanders and rigging the primary.

Mueller will have to prove conspiracy to bring collusion charges against Trump.

I would think the dangers to Trump of colluding with the Russians are not legal in nature, but certainly political. After all, he has claimed "no collusion" over and over (usually in screaming all-caps and multiple exclamation points...) for the last year. To then have to reverse and admit "well, we did collude with them, but its not against the law...!" would be politically devastating.....unless his supporters are more gullible than I thought....?

 

[AllButNone]

How could he know they were planning to subvert the election?

They were foreigners offering him illegal material. What definition of subvert are you using? I'm just using the dictionary definition, "to corrupt".

that shows they did not organize or pay for the hacking, ie no collusions to subvert the elections on Trump’s part.

At least Papadopoulus was aware of an illegal act and apparently failed to disclose it, instead seeking to use it for his gain. It's a little fire, not a very big one. However, we don't yet know where the story goes from here.

that shows they did not organize or pay for the hacking, ie no collusions to subvert the elections on Trump’s part.

I don't think anybody has accused the Trump campaign of organizing or paying for the hacking. It's what happened afterward that is of concern to a lot of people.

Alan Dershowitz who is a far left liberal but a darn good lawyer still says there is still nothing illegal here.

I'm 99% certain if he said there was something illegal, you'd be dismissing him as a bad far left lawyer. There are a lot of different opinions on this, and I fully admit I'm in no way prepared to discuss the legal ramifications. But there are also very smart lawyers who have concerns about all of this.

On July 22 wikileaks began publishing Pedesta’s Russian hacked emails however no one publicly knew who had done it.

That's not quite correct. There are two leaks here. There's the DNC hack, and that's what wikileaks began publishing on July 22nd. Then there was the Podesta gmail leak. Wikileaks didn't start publishing that until October 7th.

 

[mark46]

There is no chance of Trump being guilty of the crime of collusion. There are kits of other possibilities. Of course, impeachment is much more likely than guilt of a criminal act.

*

Mueller will have to prove conspiracy to bring collusion charges against Trump.

 

[mark46]

Of course. We only need to recall that Clinton was impeached in a proceeding that started investigating a land deal.

Scope pertains to what is relevant to the investigation.

The powers of the office allow the special counsel to bring charges forward if a crime was discovered while operating within the scope. Many fail to realize such.

Within the scope of the investigation no charges have been brought forward in the 2016 election collusion claims. None. Yet.

Now apply the above to a home no knock raid on a US citizen with no prior convictions who already handed over hundreds of documents pertaining to his time in the Trump campaign. Meaning nothing was found or released on Manafort regarding his tenure with Trump. Yet a raid on a private residence turned up unrelated documents which led to an indictment.

When Ken Star did this nonsense in the 90s the liberals were all up in arms about the 4th amendment and fishing expeditions. Why now the silence?

 

[mark46]

Consider what would happen if any of the following testifies before the committee: Trump, Jr, Pence, Ivanca and Kushner.

It seems likely that some of them would be caught up in lies severe enough to prosecute. Of course, Trump could pardon them when convicted.

Yet in the history of special counsels they never convict or even indict on what they set out to do. They always find someone for something unrelated. This one no different.

 

[mark kennedy]

It is not illegal for the clinton campaign to hire fusion for research on the opposition, just as it isnt illegal for trumps people to communicate or meet with russians.

What is illegal, is to conspire with another party, to actually do something illegal.

It's not illegal to meet with foriegn national but you have to include that in the national security application.

 

[camille70]

I agree they didn't think they were going to win. However, I also believe they were willing to cheat or get help from anyone to do so. (Edit: the people around Trump at least. I don't think Trump really wanted to win.) We've been complaining of their vetting from day 1. Did you miss the threads about how the GOP wanted to bypass all the ethics screenings to get his people confirmed before any and all paperwork was done? Or Obama warning Trump not to hire Flynn and he did it anyway? The ethics office director resigned over how the administration was behaving.

ABA deems another Trump judicial nominee ‘not qualified’

 

[iluvatar5150]

Not one, not two but three felonious foriegn agents.

And they haven't gotten to Flynn yet.

 

[camille70]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1768443193248727

 

[KCfromNC]

And they haven't gotten to Flynn yet.

Or Page. Or Kushner. Or Trump Jr.

 

[KCfromNC]

He didn't plead guilty to collusion. He pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI. My thing is, if there is no wrong doing why is he and practically everyone else around Trump lying about the Russian contacts they've had?

I couldn't help but notice that no one had an answer for this minor issue with the "nothing to see here" narrative.

 

[mark kennedy]

And they haven't gotten to Flynn yet.

I was wondering if that would come up and no they haven't. Last I heard he had a story to tell but he wanted immunity. In this political climate I'd say fat chance.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

...

Now it is becoming entertaining to see the defense of the administration.

It will be even more entertaining 30 years from now when the history books declare how an entity like Trump caused the downfall of America through demagoguery, bigotry and dog-whistle racism. If CF still exists, we will know them by handle; one may be able to perceive them in person. As far as the real word goes, the States must double down on bigotry and division or it will implode. I am assuming Westerners like to go out with a bang as opposed to a whimper?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Or Page. Or Kushner. Or Trump Jr.

AFAIK, any charges against them right now are purely speculative. Flynn's misdeeds appear much more certain.

 

[Vylo]

...

Now it is becoming entertaining to see the defense of the administration.

It will be even more entertaining 30 years from now when the history books declare how an entity like Trump caused the downfall of America through demagoguery, bigotry and dog-whistle racism. If CF still exists, we will know them by handle; one may be able to perceive them in person. As far as the real word goes, the States must double down on bigotry and division or it will implode. I am assuming Westerners like to go out with a bang as opposed to a wimper?

Or you know, we could turn back the tide against the bigotry and retake the country before Trump and Co. push it off a ledge.