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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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gaara4158

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Not formally recognized? Shall we go look at all the biology and medical papers that use the term race instead of your claims of not formally recognized?
There won't be any dating after the 80's talking about race as a formal taxon. Race is an informal rank in the taxonomic hierarchy, below the level of subspecies. Contrary to your original claim, humans are indeed categorized in subspecies just like any other animal. Talk of race is not governed by the formal codes of nomenclature. Do you understand that? You're just wrong.

From Noah and his descendants. You on the other hand want me to believe what, that one evolved from the other through mutation? Even when Asian never becomes anything but Asian regardless of mutations over tens of thousands of years?
You say the first Asians and Africans came from Noah and his descendants. So, were Noah and his descendants Africans and Asians? Was Noah an African? An Asian? And how do you know?

I mean even in your fantasy world would not all have to come from one pair, since mutations are only passed to descendants?
We all do share a common male and female ancestor, but they weren't a pair. They weren't even contemporaneous. Read up on mitochondrial eve and y-chromosomal adam if you're truly interested. Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia
 
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pitabread

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Why wouldn't common design fit what we observe? If I make 100 different animals out of similar dirt, would they not all show similarities at the subatomic level that could be confused as sharing common ancestry? Even if each one was created separately?

It's more complicated than that. When we look at evidence for common ancestry, we're really looking at patterns of observations of things that should hold true if common ancestry were true.

Take phylogenetic tree construction as an example. A phylogenetic tree is a hierarchy of ancestral relationships predicated on shared ancestry. The tree implies two things: 1) that branched groups of organisms once evolved from a common gene pool; a common genome if you will. And 2), that the divergence between populations is primarily a result of hereditary descent with modification (i.e. mutations).

If I take a particular gene homologous to a bunch of species, I can construct a phylogenetic tree based on the individual genetic sequences for that gene. The results is a tree which shows a nested hierarchy of presumed ancestral descent of that particular gene. The nesting basically shows the ancestral relationships of the respective species groups.

Then if I take a second gene, I can do the same and generate another tree. If that second tree shows convergence with the first tree, then it reinforces those ancestral relationships.

Then I do that again with a third gene, or some other sequences of genetic code (i.e. ERV insertions) or morphological characteristics, or whatever. If I continue to converge on approximately the same tree, it reinforces the pattern that we would expect to observe if those species shared common ancestry.*

Now, if an intelligent creator was engineering organisms separately, they would not be operating under the same constraints (i.e. common ancestral genomes and hereditary descent). They could mix 'n match different genes or other genetic sequences willy nilly with no regard for any sort of pattern. So doing phylogenetic tree reconstruction under those circumstances, I would expect trees to diverge wildly.

This is why when creationists claim that such observed patterns are really evidence for common design, all they are really saying is that the creator was operating under constraints we would expect if organisms shared common ancestry via hereditary descent. In effect, the creator made life to have the appearance of evolution.

(* In practice things are admittedly a little fuzzier. For example, constructing gene phylogenies technically shows ancestral evolution of the specific gene which may not be completely in line with species divergence. As well, there are also mechanisms for horizontal gene transfer which can violate ancestral hierarchies. And of course like any statistical approach, there are going to be implicit assumptions and error margins associated with the output. All that said, we never do observe anything with respect to these reconstructions which would blatantly point to independent design.)
 
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gaara4158

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Kind - Biology-Online Dictionary
That is literally the most useless definition of "Kind" I've ever seen. It spans all ranks of taxonomy from Kingdom to species. A change in kind could therefore be anything from a speciation event, of which we have many observed examples, to plants evolving into animals, something completely unprecedented and not predicted by evolution at all. Hah! I expect no better from your kind.

Like evolutionists cant agree on the definition of species? Sort of like that? Your point being, since none of you can either, then will refuse to follow the very one you give?
The nuanced ambiguities within the term species are nothing compared to the utterly meaningless boundaries between "kinds."
 
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gaara4158

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Why wouldn't common design fit what we observe?
That's a good question and I think you should ask yourself, what discovery could we find that wouldn't fit common design? What piece of evidence couldn't possibly be explained by a hypothetical designer?
 
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pitabread

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Did you actually read the definition? Try reading it first, then tell me what it means with respect to biology.

Like evolutionists cant agree on the definition of species? Sort of like that? Your point being, since none of you can either, then will refuse to follow the very one you give? Didn't give much thought to that argument, did you.

The fundamental difference is that species concept is based on taxonomic classification with the understanding that they tend to be a bit "fuzzy" when it comes to actual biology. And this because species classifications aren't a true biological concept, insofar as your average lifeform having a species name stamped on its side. When you strip off the classifications, you really just have a giant pool of biological forms with varying degrees of gene flow within respective gene pools. Some organisms can reproduce together, some organisms can't, some organisms sort of can. It's all a bit messy.

Conversely, creationists keep claiming that "kinds" really are a true biological concept. Yet they have completely failed to demonstrate a biological reality of such a concept, which is exasperated by the fact that there is no clear definition (or even an unclear one) as to what a "kind" is even supposed to mean.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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There won't be any dating after the 80's talking about race as a formal taxon. Race is an informal rank in the taxonomic hierarchy, below the level of subspecies. Contrary to your original claim, humans are indeed categorized in subspecies just like any other animal. Talk of race is not governed by the formal codes of nomenclature. Do you understand that? You're just wrong.
How doe one differentiate between Asian and African, since they are the same subspecies then?

You say the first Asians and Africans came from Noah and his descendants. So, were Noah and his descendants Africans and Asians? Was Noah an African? An Asian? And how do you know?
Because one of his sons settled in what we call Africa today, namely Ethiopia. That they may have been a mixture, the son had a wife, and then interbred specific traits to get what we see today. I expect they were neither Asian, nor African, but merely had those traits that were later fixed due to interbreeding.

You know, Like how when we bred dogs that had Husky traits from wolves, we ended up with the Husky...... Not that comparing the past to observable reality means that much to an evolutionist I know, but still, cant you get your theory to match observational data at least in a little aspect of it?

We all do share a common male and female ancestor, but they weren't a pair. They weren't even contemporaneous. Read up on mitochondrial eve and y-chromosomal adam if you're truly interested. Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia

Yes yes, and despite their claims, you cant even get an Asian despite all the mutations over more than 10,000 generations to become anything other than an Asian. I understand how it works in fantasy, but I prefer the reality of observational evidence..... Since we do know the Afro-Asian comes about by the joining of chromosomes, half from the male, half from the female.... Not that you would understand what was meant when God took part of Adam to make the female, and when joined, the two halves become one flesh.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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That's a good question and I think you should ask yourself, what discovery could we find that wouldn't fit common design? What piece of evidence couldn't possibly be explained by a hypothetical designer?

I think you should ask yourself that, since all the evidence points to common design, not shared ancestry from randomness.....
 
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gaara4158

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How doe one differentiate between Asian and African, since they are the same subspecies then?
Informally. The differences between them aren't great enough to merit a formal distinction.

Because one of his sons settled in what we call Africa today, namely Ethiopia. That they may have been a mixture, the son had a wife, and then interbred specific traits to get what we see today. I expect they were neither Asian, nor African, but merely had those traits that were later fixed due to interbreeding.
1) Interbreeding with whom? According to the myth, they were the last humans left on Earth.
2) So you do admit that Asians and Africans came from non-Asians and non-Africans. You just think those people were Noah's family. So you can't be out here claiming Asians only breed Asians because you yourself admit that Asians were bred by non-Asians.

Yes yes, and despite their claims, you cant even get an Asian despite all the mutations over more than 10,000 generations to become anything other than an Asian.
With a boat and some paperwork you can get an Asian to give birth to an American, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

Not that you would understand what was meant when God took part of Adam to make the female, and when joined, the two halves become one flesh.
Well, I just haven't seen the empirical evidence suggesting this is the case. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Did you actually read the definition? Try reading it first, then tell me what it means with respect to biology.

I'd agree with your definition of species, except you cant even follow your own definition. Would you disagree that all humans are of one Kind?


The fundamental difference is that species concept is based on taxonomic classification with the understanding that they tend to be a bit "fuzzy" when it comes to actual biology. And this because species classifications aren't a true biological concept, insofar as your average lifeform having a species name stamped on its side. When you strip off the classifications, you really just have a giant pool of biological forms with varying degrees of gene flow within respective gene pools. Some organisms can reproduce together, some organisms can't, some organisms sort of can. It's all a bit messy.
And what do you find to be "fuzzy" about finches interbreeding and producing fertile offspring right in front of their noses?

Conversely, creationists keep claiming that "kinds" really are a true biological concept. Yet they have completely failed to demonstrate a biological reality of such a concept, which is exasperated by the fact that there is no clear definition (or even an unclear one) as to what a "kind" is even supposed to mean.
Yet despite your claim every creationist would agree all humans are one Kind, all dogs one Kind, all those finches are one Kind, all cats one kind, all Chimpanzee one Kind. We aren't confused just because we don't observe them mating or not, classify them as separate Kinds in the belief they are reproductively isolated, then find out 200 years later they breed like rabbits and refuse to correct the mistakes in classification.

Who isn't faithful in the little things can not be trusted with the larger things..... Knowing the original classification was clearly based on an incorrect belief of reproductive isolation, refusal to correct it just because they are Darwin's Finches is so pathetic as to be saddening.
 
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gaara4158

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I think you should ask yourself that, since all the evidence points to common design, not shared ancestry from randomness.....
I'm asking you to consider the question for a reason. Your refusal to answer either means you don't understand the question or you're realizing that there's no real answer. There's nothing you could observe that you couldn't explain away with a hypothetical creator. That's what we call an unfalsifiable claim. This being the case, it's a completely useless hypothesis. You can't say all the evidence points to common design because common design has no limiting parameters.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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[citation needed]
Why? you asked what would conclusively show it was not common design. I say there is no evidence. It's up to you to prove there is evidence it isn't from common design. I cant give you what does not exist.....

I agree [citation needed]
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I'm asking you to consider the question for a reason. Your refusal to answer either means you don't understand the question or you're realizing that there's no real answer. There's nothing you could observe that you couldn't explain away with a hypothetical creator. That's what we call an unfalsifiable claim. This being the case, it's a completely useless hypothesis. You can't say all the evidence points to common design because common design has no limiting parameters.
Prove to me Dark Matter doesnt exist, or Dark Energy, or the Big bang.... Ahhh, science seems to have their own unfalsifiable theories, since over 15 tests have came up negative on Fairie Dust....

You claim a common ancestor evolved into man and monkey, prove it false......
 
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gaara4158

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Yet despite your claim every creationist would agree all humans are one Kind, all dogs one Kind, all those finches are one Kind, all cats one kind, all Chimpanzee one Kind.
Really? Chimpanzee Kind, not Monkey Kind? Finches all get grouped into one Kind despite being of dozens of different species, but Chimps get their own special Kind for their paltry two species? You might want to confer with all creationists before you start speaking for them.
 
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pitabread

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I'd agree with your definition of species, except you cant even follow your own definition. Would you disagree that all humans are of one Kind?

You're just dodging now. Try reading the definition of 'kind' that you linked to and report back on what it actually says.

And what do you find to be "fuzzy" about finches interbreeding and producing fertile offspring right in front of their noses?

When I talk about fuzzy barriers, I'm talking about relative levels of reproductive fertility. For example, things like ring species, hybridization, etc. Species barriers in nature are not completely rigid.

Yet despite your claim every creationist would agree all humans are one Kind, all dogs one Kind, all those finches are one Kind, all cats one kind, all Chimpanzee one Kind.

Actually, they don't agree. I've seen creationists invoke the "kind" definition at all sorts of different levels from domains all the way to subspecies. For example, I've seen creationists treat "kind" as analogous to "genus" in taxonomy. Which would imply several different "cat" kinds. Yet I've seen other creationists claim the entire Felidae family as a single kind.

You guys need to sort out your ideas first, then come back when you've got it figured out.
 
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pitabread

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Why? you asked what would conclusively show it was not common design. I say there is no evidence. It's up to you to prove there is evidence it isn't from common design. I cant give you what does not exist.....

You claimed "all the evidence points to common design". You need to support this assertion. So far you've about 0 for 50 in that regard.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Really? Chimpanzee Kind, not Monkey Kind? Finches all get grouped into one Kind despite being of dozens of different species, but Chimps get their own special Kind for their paltry two species? You might want to confer with all creationists before you start speaking for them.
And yet the Bible is clear when talking of birds, specifies each after its own Kinds (plural). So any creationist that might lump all birds into one Kind is confused and not following his/her Bible......
 
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gaara4158

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And yet the Bible is clear when talking of birds, specifies each after its own Kinds (plural). So any creationist that might lump all birds into one Kind is confused and not following his/her Bible......
That’s not a strength.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You claimed "all the evidence points to common design". You need to support this assertion. So far you've about 0 for 50 in that regard.
If all evidence points to this assertion, how can i falsify it which is what you originally asked. Dont change the point under discussion in the middle of the discussion.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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That’s not a strength.
Neither is calling finches separate species based on the belief of reproductive isolation, findiing out they aint, and refusing to correct it.....
 
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