What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

[Butch5]

Yes I did. Your argument, your position, your objection is uninformed, unsupported, irrelevant and immaterial therefore do not merit consideration. One verse does not determine the meaning of a word. You are trying to make a grammatical argument based on only one verse. Your argument "One negative cancels any number of positives." is false. That may be true for "red cars' but it is not true in language. As I have shown with verses where Jesus used hyperbole. There are verses where a stone is literally a stone but Peter was not a stone when Jesus called him one.

Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Lk. 16:16 KJV)

Paul said the Aaronic Priesthood ended.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.1 (Heb. 7:11-19 KJV)

So Jesus said the Law was until John and Paul said that the priesthood was change and brought to an end. Yet, we see that the English translators translate "aionion" as forever regarding an ordinance of the Mosaic Law concerning Aaron and His sons.

For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev. 7:34 KJV)

So, which is it? Did it end as Jesus and Paul said or is it forever as the English translators say?

 

[ClementofA]

I have addressed all your objections and questions in my previous posts.

Almost all of my post #88 you have not addressed.

Answer, they were deliberately omitted because, in my opinion, they do not fit the agenda that "aion" does not mean eternity.

That is a strawman. I never said aion cannot sometimes mean eternity in some contexts. I said context determines meaning. My definition of aion, which i proved was the same as lexicons, including LSJ and BDAG, etc, which you said was wrong, obviously allowed for a range of meanings of aion, with any particular context indicating what the particular meaning of aion is in that specific biblical context.

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity… (1Co. 2:6-8)

¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)

¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

How can we say…

¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point.

Scores of passages demonstrate that aion is of limited duration."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

..... Were one to review this BDAG article they would find the following definitions, which were omitted from your quote.

Irrelevant. The topic is the general definition of the single word aion. Not multiple word phrases in specific passages & not aionios, which is a different word.

My previously posted definition of aion, which you said was wrong is:

"Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch."

But LSJ and BAGD & many other dictionaries, lexicons, Greek-English interlinears & other sources agree with and include my definition. Compare, for example, LSJ, to my definition above:

"space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age"

Greek Word Study Tool
LSJ

As anyone can see, my definition is almost an exact copy of LSJ lexicon, which Der Alter said was wrong. In so doing he says LSJ is wrong too.

Maybe it's time Der Alter posted his definition of aion. Since he thinks everyone else has got it wrong but him!

What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?

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Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!

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[Der Alte]

Almost all of my post #88 you have not addressed.

Yes it has!

That is a strawman. I never said aion cannot sometimes mean eternity in some contexts. I said context determines meaning. My definition of aion, which i proved was the same as lexicons, including LSJ and BDAG, etc, which you said was wrong, obviously allowed for a range of meanings of aion, with any particular context indicating what the particular meaning of aion is in that specific biblical context.

Your 'definition" is wrong when you repeatedly quote only part of a definition from sources such as BDAG, which you did, and say ""Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch." while ignoring that same source cites eternity as a definition.

...Copy paste from Gerry Beauchamp @ Tents R us deleted....

If you want to have a discussion with me do not copy/paste big blocks of canned arguments from your pet website.

Irrelevant. The topic is the general definition of the single word aion. Not multiple word phrases in specific passages & not aionios, which is a different word.

What you just blew off as irrelevant was copied from the definition of aion from BDAG.

My previously posted definition of aion, which you said was wrong is:
"Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch."
But LSJ and BAGD & many other dictionaries, lexicons, Greek-English interlinears & other sources agree with and include my definition. Compare, for example, LSJ, to my definition above:
"space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age"
As anyone can see, my definition is almost an exact copy of LSJ lexicon, which Der Alter said was wrong. In so doing he says LSJ is wrong too.
Maybe it's time Der Alter posted his definition of aion. Since he thinks everyone else has got it wrong but him!
What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?

Your 'definition" is wrong and will always be wrong when you quote only part of a definition and say or imply that that and only that is the full definition.
.....And I point out once again that I have proved from scripture that aion means eternity. I quoted 8 passages of scripture which equate aion with words like immortal, incorruptible, unchangeable and contrasts aion with words like destroy, which has never been addressed. Except to repeat over and over "Nuh uh Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch."

Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

Here “aion” is in apposition with “unchangeable” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period i.e. age” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. In this verse and others “aion” literally means “eternal.” If "aion" did not inherently mean eternity it could not be equated with "unchangeable." This is Der Alter's definition which he has posted multiple times

 

[Noxot]

the second death is a further purification for some souls depending on what they do and how they are with God and his people. in heaven we will still be growing and being perfected because God has no end. the process of purification is everywhere in the bible.


Exod 9:22-26 (YLT)
And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Stretch forth thy hand towards the heavens, and there is hail in all the land of Egypt, on man, and on beast, and on every herb of the field in the land of Egypt.' And Moses stretcheth out his rod towards the heavens, and Jehovah hath given voices and hail, and fire goeth towards the earth, and Jehovah raineth hail on the land of Egypt, and there is hail, and fire catching itself in the midst of the hail, very grievous, such as hath not been in all the land of Egypt since it hath become a nation. And the hail smiteth in all the land of Egypt all that is in the field, from man even unto beast, and every herb of the field hath the hail smitten, and every tree of the field it hath broken; only in the land of Goshen, where the sons of Israel are , there hath been no hail.

1Cor 3:11-17 (YLT)
for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ; and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove; if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it , a wage he shall receive; if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire. have ye not known that ye are a sanctuary of God, and the Spirit of God doth dwell in you? if any one the sanctuary of God doth waste, him shall God waste; for the sanctuary of God is holy, the which ye are.

Rev 2:11 (YLT)
He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death.

Rev 20:6 (YLT)
Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:10-15 (YLT)
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages. And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Rev 21:5-8 (YLT)
And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and stedfast;' and He said to me, `It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely; he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him--a God, and he shall be to me--the son, and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'

 

[Ron Gurley]

PURIFICATION? = "PURGATORY = false doctrines!

Matthew 25:46 ...Jesus' Judgment of the NATIONS (ETHNOS)
These (GOAT unbelieving NATIONS) will go away into eternal (SPIRITUAL) punishment, but the righteous (SHEEP believing NATIONS into eternal (SPIRITUAL) life.”

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (BODY/SOUL COMBO) once and after this comes judgment,(OF MAN'S SPIRIT)

Matthew 13:42
and will throw them (UNBELIEVING "TARES")into the furnace (LAKE?) of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13...JESUS: Parable of the unfaithful/unbelieving servant
Then the king said to the (good) servants,
‘Bind him (unbeliever) hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness;
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 24:51
and will cut him (unbeliever)in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites;
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30
Throw out the worthless slave (unbeliever) into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God,
but yourselves (unbelieving hypocrites) being thrown out.

Luke 16:23...Paradise + Hades = Abraham's Bosom
In Hades he (unbeliever)lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their (unbelievers') torment goes up forever and ever;
they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast (anti-christ) and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10...Fate of the unholy 3 and unbelievers
And the 1.devil who deceived them was thrown into the "lake of fire" and brimstone, (unholy 3)
where the 2. beast (anti-christ) and the 3. false prophet (anti-spirit) are also;
and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Butch5]

Evidently Der Alter he thinks it is hyperbole when Jesus & Scripture repeatedly speak of an "end of the age", "end of the ages", "ends of the ages". But it's obviously literal, not hyperbole.

Evidently he also thinks aion is defined as "eternal" except when used in hyperbole, like our English word "forever". I waited at the dentist "forever" is hyperbole. Of course the above "end of the age" phrases refute his hyperbole theory and prove it is a false doctrine. And lexicons disagree with him & support the definition we concurred with, which Der Alter said was wrong.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Him and I have gone over this before. That's why I said I've seen his arguments and they don't hold water. Christian theologian believe and write all kinds of different things.

 

[Butch5]

Does aion mean eternity? Let's replace the word aion with eternity. When we do we find phrases such as, the eternities of the eternities. That doesn't even make sense. How many eternities are there? It seems if eternity it never ends there can only be one. If so, how can there be eternities of the eternities? Let's look at a statement from Jesus.

32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:32 NKJ)

Here Jesus speaks of two different ages. Is He saying, in this eternity or the eternity to come? Obviously not as that doesn't make any sense. Age, as an undefined period of time does make sense. It would be, in this undefined period of time or the undefined period of time to come. Obviously the second sentence makes sense where the first doesn't. Thus aion doesn't mean eternity.

 

[ClementofA]

If you want to have a discussion with me do not copy/paste big blocks of canned arguments from your pet website.

What would be the point when you constantly avoid discussion by refusing to answer simple questions? Instead you reply to those questions with irrelevant large blocks of spam like an auto-bot robot that is incapable of reading the questions. For example, the following is one of many questions you have refused to answer:

My previously posted definition of aion, which you said was wrong is:

"Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch."

But LSJ and BAGD & many other dictionaries, lexicons, Greek-English interlinears & other sources agree with and include my definition. Compare, for example, LSJ, to my definition above:

"space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age"

Greek Word Study Tool
LSJ

As anyone can see, my definition is almost an exact copy of LSJ lexicon, which Der Alter said was wrong. In so doing he says LSJ is wrong too.

Maybe it's time Der Alter posted his definition of aion. Since he thinks everyone else has got it wrong but him!

What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?

 

[Der Alte]

What would be the point when you constantly avoid discussion by refusing to answer simple questions? Instead you reply to those questions with irrelevant large blocks of spam like an auto-bot robot that is incapable of reading the questions. For example, the following is one of many questions you have refused to answer:
My previously posted definition of aion, which you said was wrong is:
"Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch."
But LSJ and BAGD & many other dictionaries, lexicons, Greek-English interlinears & other sources agree with and include my definition. Compare, for example, LSJ, to my definition above:
"space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age"
Greek Word Study Tool
LSJ
As anyone can see, my definition is almost an exact copy of LSJ lexicon, which Der Alter said was wrong. In so doing he says LSJ is wrong too.
Maybe it's time Der Alter posted his definition of aion. Since he thinks everyone else has got it wrong but him!
What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?

My [post #104] above. Speaking of auto-bot robots that are incapable of reading the questions many of your posts are nothing but copy/pastes of pre-canned arguments from tents-r-us.
During a Bible study today I was teaching from Matthew and happened on this verse.

Mat 7:3-5
(3) "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
(4) How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
(5) You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.​

Is it really possible for a person to have a beam in their eye? ή είναι υπερβολή

 

[ClementofA]

My [post #104] above.

That doesn't answer the question:

What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?

You said in post #104:

"And I point out once again that I have proved from scripture that aion means eternity."

Where does that say what your GENERAL DEFINITION of aion is for ALL aion occurrences in the Scriptures? It doesn't. It doesn't even use the word "definition". It doesn't include the word "hyperbole" either which you keep on bringing up. How does hyperbole fit in with your definition of aion?

No one in this thread is denying that the word aion could possibly mean, or sometimes means, "eternal" or "eternity" in some contexts of Scripture. So your arguments from specific contexts that it sometimes does so are pointless. A waste of time and bandwidth. What's the point?

It's already been proven that aion does NOT mean "eternal" or "eternity" in every occurrence in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. That theory has been refuted. Do you agree or disagree? Isn't it about time you finally give a response & give a direct plain answer to this.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Butch5]

.....And I point out once again that I have proved from scripture that aion means eternity. I quoted 8 passages of scripture which equate aion with words like immortal, incorruptible, unchangeable and contrasts aion with words like destroy, which has never been addressed. Except to repeat over and over "Nuh uh Aion literally means age, eon. It refers to a duration of time, often an epoch."

Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

Here “aion” is in apposition with “unchangeable” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period i.e. age” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. In this verse and others “aion” literally means “eternal.” If "aion" did not inherently mean eternity it could not be equated with "unchangeable." This is Der Alter's definition which he has posted multiple times

This is a non sequitur. If aion means a finite period of time it most certainly can be equated with unchangeable. What is your argument that says it can't be?

 

[Butch5]

...Eight verses from the NT which conclusively show that "aion" definitely means "eternity" and "aionios" definitely means "eternal."

[1] 1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos

In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

The Greek word aphthartos can also be defined as incorruptible. The only other place this word appears in this form is 1 Peter 3:4 where it clearly speaks of moral corruption. Since this word can rightly be translated incorruptible it can't be used to support your argument.

[2] Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:

“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds1":

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; (Rom. 2:5-7 NKJ)


The Greek word for immortality in this passage is "aphtharsia." The definition is incorruption or perpetuity, not immortality. One can see aionios (age) life and incorruption at the same time.

[3] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1a) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1a)
(1a) αἰώνιος/aionios (3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos

Here “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.

Actually, it can be. A long time (aionios) is the opposite of, for a moment or for a short time.

[4] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1a) in the heavens.

Here “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is notdestroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aionios” means “eternal.”

This is a non sequitur. Aionios doesn't mean "notdestroyed"

[5] Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos

Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

.


This passage doesn't even use the word "aion".

[6] 1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)

Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

This passage doesn't even contain the word "aion"

[7] 1Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]

Here “immortality” is in apposition with aionios. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. “Aionios” means “eternal.”

Actually, if you read this passages carefully you find that it is the honor and "kratos," which can be translated dominion, that is said to be aionios, not God's existence. Therefore this passage doesn't support your argument.

[8] Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

Here “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “fleshly” people reap “corruption” but people in the spirit people reap life aionios i.e. not “corruption.” “Aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”

There's nothing here to indicate eternality. Those who sow to the flesh reap corruption and those to the spirit aionios life. One dies, assuming Paul doesn't mean moral corruption, the other gets aionios life. That doesn't mean aionios means eternal.


You see, the concept of an age can incorporate the concept of eternity. What is an age? It's an undefined period of time. How long is eternity? it's undefined. Thus an age can incorporate it. On the other hand the concept of eternity cannot incorporate are finite period of time. Therefore aion cannot mean eternity.

 

[Der Alte]

That doesn't answer the question:
What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?
You said in post #104:
"And I point out once again that I have proved from scripture that aion means eternity."
Where does that say what your GENERAL DEFINITION of aion is for ALL aion occurrences in the Scriptures? It doesn't. It doesn't even use the word "definition". It doesn't include the word "hyperbole" either which you keep on bringing up. How does hyperbole fit in with your definition of aion?
No one in this thread is denying that the word aion could possibly mean, or sometimes means, "eternal" or "eternity" in some contexts of Scripture. So your arguments from specific contexts that it sometimes does so are pointless. A waste of time and bandwidth. What's the point?
It's already been proven that aion does NOT mean "eternal" or "eternity" in every occurrence in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. That theory has been refuted. Do you agree or disagree? Isn't it about time you finally give a response & give a direct plain answer to this.
...f

My [Post #104] where I say.
"This is Der Alter's definition which he has posted multiple times."

 

[Der Alte]

. . . It's already been proven that aion does NOT mean "eternal" or "eternity" in every occurrence in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. That theory has been refuted. Do you agree or disagree? Isn't it about time you finally give a response & give a direct plain answer to this. . . .

Does the Bible also "prove" that Peter was actually, literally a stone? That Herod was actually, literally a fox? That people could actually, literally be sons of thunder? That people could actually, literally have a beam in their eye?
.....Are there any words in English which have opposite meanings as aion/aionios are supposed to have? For example, is there an English word which means both finite and infinite?

 

[Noxot]

the deeper spiritual sense always implies the literal in the sense that what is real is the language of God. the transcendental nature of God is much greater than objective reality. spirit itself has a profound subjective element to it. God himself is subjective and yet also God which means his defining of things is what creates objective reality. therefore whatever God says is far more objective than what we consider to be real or objective.

so yes someone can literally be a fox to God, because he always speaks the truth. but humans are used to objective reality and certain modes of truth. but God knows what a fox means way more than humans do.

when angels read the bible they see the spiritual version of it aka a realer version of it. when angels gave some of the OT to moses they might have spoken with a veil but to them their hidden wisdom was not hidden.

 

[Der Alte]

the deeper spiritual sense always implies the literal in the sense that what is real is the language of God. the transcendental nature of God is much greater than objective reality. spirit itself has a profound subjective element to it. God himself is subjective and yet also God which means his defining of things is what creates objective reality. therefore whatever God says is far more objective than what we consider to be real or objective.
so yes someone can literally be a fox to God, because he always speaks the truth. but humans are used to objective reality and certain modes of truth. but God knows what a fox means way more than humans do.
when angels read the bible they see the spiritual version of it aka a realer version of it. when angels gave some of the OT to moses they might have spoken with a veil but to them their hidden wisdom was not hidden.

The first century Christians were largely unsophisticated and would have understood the NT literally unless they had been given instructions to search out hidden spiritual meanings. I have not been able to find any evidence in the NT where readers were instructed to search for such hidden spiritual meanings.
......Many opposing religious groups claim to know the hidden "spiritual meaning" but they don't seem to agree what that is.

 

[Noxot]

The first century Christians were largely unsophisticated and would have understood the NT literally unless they had been given instructions to search out hidden spiritual meanings. I have not been able to find any evidence in the NT where readers were instructed to search for such hidden spiritual meanings.
......Many opposing religious groups claim to know the hidden "spiritual meaning" but they don't seem to agree what that is.

then you must have never read the NT at all because paul had a lot to say about it and there has always been a deeper understanding of the bible in the jewish religion. the prophets and righteous understood God and Christ far more clearly than the average layman.

 

[Der Alte]

then you must have never read the NT at all because paul had a lot to say about it and there has always been a deeper understanding of the bible in the jewish religion. the prophets and righteous understood God and Christ far more clearly than the average layman.

Give me some examples please? I have read the Talmud and some of the Jewish "deeper understanding." One Rabbi says this, another Rabbi says that and yet another Rabbi says something else.

 

[ClementofA]

My [Post #104] where I say.
"This is Der Alter's definition which he has posted multiple times."

Why not just answer ALL the questions asked & state your definition simply, in the form: "My general definition of the word aion is..."

And include the word hyperbole, as i requested.

How difficult can that be?

Just like i gave my definition.

That doesn't answer the question:
What's your definition of aion, Der Alter?
You said in post #104:
"And I point out once again that I have proved from scripture that aion means eternity."
Where does that say what your GENERAL DEFINITION of aion is for ALL aion occurrences in the Scriptures? It doesn't. It doesn't even use the word "definition". It doesn't include the word "hyperbole" either which you keep on bringing up. How does hyperbole fit in with your definition of aion?
No one in this thread is denying that the word aion could possibly mean, or sometimes means, "eternal" or "eternity" in some contexts of Scripture. So your arguments from specific contexts that it sometimes does so are pointless. A waste of time and bandwidth. What's the point?

 

[ClementofA]

Does the Bible also "prove" that Peter was actually, literally a stone? That Herod was actually, literally a fox? That people could actually, literally be sons of thunder? That people could actually, literally have a beam in their eye?
.....Are there any words in English which have opposite meanings as aion/aionios are supposed to have? For example, is there an English word which means both finite and infinite?

Why not just give a simple answer to the question instead of responding with questions? Here it is again:

. . . It's already been proven that aion does NOT mean "eternal" or "eternity" in every occurrence in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. That theory has been refuted. Do you agree or disagree?

If you agree with the theory that aion always means "eternal" or "eternity" in the Scriptures, except when used in hyperbole, why do the LSJ, BDAG & other lexicons make no mention of this & evidently oppose your theory?