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Featured What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    just read some of what paul wrote.

    Gal 4:21-26 (ESV2011)
    Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That fire of Jude 1:7 that burnt Sodom went out long ago. It wasn't "eternal" as some pro eternal hell versions mis-translate it, misleading the public. Likewise the same words mistranslated "eternal fire" at Mt.18:8; 25:41 refer to fires that are of finite duration, not eternal. Moreover since Mt.25:41 refers to the devil's finite punishment, his punishment of Rev.20:10, "into the ages of the ages", must also be finite, but is often deceptively translated "forever and ever".

    The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

    Jude 1 Interlinear Bible

    The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as some versions says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

    Similarly, a literal version reads:

    7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen,
    experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

    "The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376)
    Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

    "We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

    "The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

    "But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

    "Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

    "2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

    "If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

    A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

    ************************************************

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Forum
    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Please explain to me how this is supposed to be "the spiritual version of it [the Bible] aka a realer version of [the Bible]? When something is explained, as it is in this passage, it is no longer "spiritual." This does not justify anyone finding hidden spiritual meaning throughout the Bible.
     
  4. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    I don't get what you mean by "When something is explained, as it is in this passage, it is no longer "spiritual." "

    if God gave something to paul then I would not say that paul found it.

    as for your request. there is the flesh of the bible and then there is the spirit of it. what is more meaningful and important to a person.... a womans outer beauty or lack thereof or the conditions and actions of her heart?
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I do not read or respond to large copy/pastes of pre-canned arguments. How do you know that the fire mentioned in Jude was not eternal? Prove it from scripture.
    Jude 1:7
    (7) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.​
    This verse does not say the suffering or the punishment was eternal only the fire is described as eternal. We cannot know where the "eternal fire" originated and that it did not return there after destroying Sodom and surrounding towns.
    .....If Jude had said something like "They serve as an example of those who endlessly suffer the everlasting punishment of eternal fire." You might have an argument but alas it does not say that.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I read and respond to anything God leads me to, even your huge cut & paste spam posts, since i am interested in refuting error.

    You not only don't respond to such as you mention above, except when you do, but to many other posts that don't come under that classification, such as my posts #'s 119 and 120 in this thread and post #112 by Butch5 which addressed your 8 aion/aionion verses.

    I have included your complete & weak reply here for the record. Those who have eyes to see will be able to see what i posted was truth compared to the nonsense you have said above.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Thank you very much for your unsolicited, unsupported opinion. Please let me know when you have acquired sufficient education and training in Greek that I should accept your "interpretation" or provide arguments by accredited Greek scholars. Until then I will go with the translation by accredited Bible scholars.
    See previous response. Your last sentence misrepresents my response.
    Read my complete reply and respond to it, not just bits and piece out-of-context. See my comments on temporal vs. eternal contrasted with temporal and age(s)
    If something is not destroyed then it is eternal.

    Hebrews 7:24 ο δε δια το μενειν αυτον εις τον αιωνα [aion] απαραβατον εχει την ιερωσυνην

    1Peter 1:23
    (23) αναγεγεννημενοι ουκ εκ σπορας φθαρτης αλλα αφθαρτου δια λογου ζωντος θεου και μενοντος εις τον αιωνα[aion]
    Irrelevant. Thank you once again for your unsupported opinion. If God is eternal then all of his attributes are eternal not "age(s)" long. My argument remains unscathed.
    Your assumptions and amateurish attempts to reinterpret words are irrelevant. Once again I will go with the translations provided by accredited scholars. In Galatians 6:8 “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “fleshly” people reap “corruption” [of some kind] but people in the spirit people reap life aionios i.e. not “corruption.” That which is eternal cannot be corrupted. “Aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
    This is nonsense. "Eternity" is not an undefined period of time. "Eternal" and "age(s)" are not interchangeable. You have not conclusively refuted any of my arguments.
     
  8. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT New Member

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    i have never found a scripture in the bible that say we have souls.every scripture i have read concerning the use of the word soul when speaking of animals or humans shows that the word soul is speaking of that flesh and blood animal or human,meaning we are souls not that we have souls.there is a difference.so if the humans in sodom are burned to ashes then that means those souls were burned to ashes
     
  9. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT New Member

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    i believe that romans here is talking about the sin that adam brought upon all mankind,but Jesus being the second or last adam brought us the gift of eternal life,so those who exercise faith in Jesus will remain in God memory and be resurrected when he returns
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Twelve points opposing the opinion that AION is not used of finite time in the Scriptures. The same 12 points showing that even the phrase "into the ages of the ages" is used of finite time in the Bible:

    (1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

    (2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

    (3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

    (4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless. Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

    (5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

    Summing up the argument:

    - eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
    - eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
    - which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
    - therefore his punishment is finite &
    - his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
    - the eons of the eons themselves are finite

    Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
    Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

    7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

    "The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

    "We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

    "The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

    "But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

    "Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

    "2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

    "If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

    Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

    (6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) "for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living "into the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

    His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

    Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

    So we find the phrases "into ages of ages" & "into the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

    - Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
    - Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
    - Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
    - Rev.22:5 saints reigning
    - Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
    - multiple references to God living or His glory

    In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

    (7) As documented by scholar Illaria Ramelli, Origen & a number of other early church fathers spoke of an end of all ages & or an end of "ages of ages". See Ramelli's tome below, pages 8-10, 13-14, 112ff, 132, 157-8, 160-1, 167-8, 202. (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp)
    Preview of The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena [WorldCat.org]

    "In Hom. in Ex. 6,13, similarly, Origen foresees the end of all aeons: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God.” (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.161)

    "Cf. Apoc. 14:10–11, where the smoke of the tormented sinners rises eis aiônas aiônôn, in saecula saeculorum, which does not self-evidently mean absolutely forever; for Origen,
    as we shall see, this will be the time of the aiônes, before the apocatastasis which brings on the aïdiotês. Only the aïdiotês of the universal restoration will be truly forever." (Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts, Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan, 2007, p.69)

    ...continued at my next post...
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (8) 1 Cor.10:11. Scripture speaks of the "ends of the ages" or eons (1 Cor.10:11) and an "end of the ages" (Heb.9:26). If the phrase "the ages of the ages" meant ages tumbling endlessly one after the other, as some commentators claim, why does Scripture says the ages end?

    There were no ends of any eons present when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor.10:11). For Jesus spoke of the present eon in which He lived (Mt13:22; Lk.16:8) and its end (Mt.24:3) which has still not arrived almost 2000 years later. The eon that Jesus was living in, which Paul calls the "present evil eon" (Gal.1:4), of which Satan is god (2 Cor.4:4), began before David (Lu. 1:70) and all the prophets (Ac. 3:21), after the end of the world in the days of Noah, thousands of years before the birth of Christ. So, again, there was no eon ending when Paul wrote 1 Cor.10:11, let alone an end of multiple eons. So what is he referring to in speaking of a consummation or end "of the eons" having been attained (1 Cor.10:11)?

    "(The) scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11... "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons."
    AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Chapter Five

    "It contains the phrase "the ends of the eons," or, as we prefer to render it, "the consummations of the. eons" (1 Cor. 10:11), for they not only come to an end, but culminate in the accomplishment of the purpose (Eph. 3:11) for which they were made (Heb. 1:2)....In our own spirits we have an undeniable foretaste that the eons are accomplishing the purpose for which they were made." (Unsearchable Riches [U.R.], Vol. 58, p.39-40, A.E.K.).

    "in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Eph.3:11)
    " which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (Eph.1)

    "The eons not only come to an end, but culminate in the purpose (Eph.3:ll) for which God made them (Heb.l:2)." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)

    "Paul is warning the Corinthians not to become disqualified, but to drink out of their spiritual, following Rock—Christ. A strong incentive to do this is that already the consummations of the ages have attained in spirit to the saints. What the ends of the coming eons will bring has already been made known in some measure to the saints. Every one of the four occurrences of the verb katantao in Paul's epistles shews that he used it as a meaning to attain in spirit, to draw up alongside in spirit (1. Cor. 10:11; 14:36; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:11)."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

    "It is not until the consummation when God becomes All in all that His titles can be clearly and fully appreciated. But we, in sense, have been taken ahead of time to the consummation.
    The manifestation of Christ through His sacrifice, which we see with the eyes of faith, is vitally connected with the conclusion of the eons according to Hebrews 9:26 where we read, "... yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest." Paul describes us who believe this evangel as those "to whom the consummations of the eons have attained" (1 Cor.lO:ll). The goals toward which God is leading the universe have, in spiritual way, come ahead of time to us. And one of these goals is the manifestation of Himself to His creatures." (U.R., Vol 71, p.77, D.H.H.).

    "In spirit, Paul brought those under his ministry into the new creation, which is the spiritual counterpart of the eon inaugurated by the new heavens and new earth. It is only thus that the consummations of the eons had already reached the Corinthians." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)....?

    "...The evangel of God concerning His Son announces the end of sin and the end of divine indignation. These consummations will be realized throughout the universe when God is All is all, but, in spirit, they have attained to us who are believing (1 Cor. 10:11)." (U.R., Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255, D.H.H.)

    If all eons end (1 Cor.10:11), then "eons of eons" (Rev.14:11) and "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. Likewise must the "torment" for these finite time periods also end. What occurs after their end - whether endless torments, endless annihilation or reconciliation to God - is left up to other passages of the Scriptures to reveal.

    For elaborations upon this point re 1 Cor.10:11 i'd suggest the following articles & comments:

    Unsearchable Riches, Vol 15, p.24-28; Vol 19, p.230; Vol 58, p.39-40; Vol 82, p.238; Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255; Vol 99, p.283; Vol 100, p.131-134 @

    Unsearchable Riches


    (9) Heb.9:26 refers to an end of the ages. If all ages end, then "the ages of the ages" must end, both in Rev.20:10 & all other contexts of Scripture.

    "Origen, reflecting on Heb 9:26 and Eph 2:7, argues that Christ’s sacrifice was made once and for all aeons. These aeons are not infinite or repetitive, but point to one telos, the apokatastasis of all, which is not a result of necessity, but of all rational creatures’ voluntary adhesion to the Good." (Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.202)

    A.E. Knoch opined that Hebrews 9:26 and 1 Cor.10:11 are "positive proof that the eons have a conclusion, or "end", and therefore do not last "for ever"...[which] also repudiates the assumptive theory of man that there is an infinite series of ages..." (U.R., Vol. 19, p.230, 1928).

    "...the Greek preposition epi, when followed by a dative case, as here, signifies "over," "on the basis of," "with a view to." It was on the basis of a conclusion of the ages, for repudiation of sin through His, sacrifice, that He has been manifested. Epi, when followed by a genitive or accusative case, takes the meaning "on," or "on to," but its metaphorical force comes out generally when the dative case is used. Christ was manifested with a view to the ages being concluded, The ages are the times in which sin and enemies are present, requiring the sacrifice of God's Son. He was manifested so that sin might be set aside through His sacrifice, having in view a conclusion to the ages. He was certainly not manifested at a conclusion of the ages, but His manifestation demands that the eons terminate."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

    "26 FOR,]lit. 'since it were behoving him, to suffer many times from [the] laying-down of the world, but now, once for all, on the full-end of the ages, has he been manifested with a view to a putting away of sin, through his own sacrifice' " (Robert Young, LL.D., Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament, p.158, also author of Young's Literal Translation & Young's Concordance)
    Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament
    A commentary on the holy Bible, as literally and idiomatically tr. out of the original languages

    "We have been asked concerning Hebrews 9:26, which in the Authorized Version reads as follows: "... but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." It seems to be saying that the "end of the world" occurred when Christ was sacrificed. As A. E. Knoch once said, "This is so impossible that I suppose no one takes it seriously."* The early (1926, 1930) editions of the Concordant Version, hoping to put sense into an enigmatic passage rendered it as follows: "... yet now, once, has He been manifested through His sacrifice, for the repudiation of sin at the conclusion of the eons." ...Neither the AV or the early CV completely reflected the order of the Greek clauses in English. The sublinear reads now yet once on together-finish of-the eons INTO UN-PLACING OF-THE missing THRU THE SACRIFICE OF-Him He-HAS-beenn-made-APPEAR."

    "...Even when considering a single eon, the "conclusion" {sunteleia, together-finish) of the eon (e.g., Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time in which the events of that eon culminate. It is compared with a harvest. By definition, an eon's culmination is that portion of it in which its highest point is attained in order to reach a final result. "The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of a period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word 'conclusion.' "

    ""The scope of the book of Hebrews does not include the present time of grace to the nations. Yet there was to be delay, so that its readers would die in faith instead of receiving the promises. This shows that, at that time, and, indeed, throughout our Lord's ministries and the book of Acts, the coming eons were imminent. Consequently, it appeared as if our Lord's sacrifice came just before the kingdom. And is not this, together with the last eon, the harvest season of the eons? With this in mind it is not so very difficult to see that all of the time after His sacrifice is 'conclusion', especially with respect to sin." "

    "...The term "at" (the conclusion of the eons) is not strictly correct; it is only that this is the best idiomatic rendering we can make in the Version. The word is actually "on." The idea seems to be this: We are to understand that once Christ had been manifested "for [EIS for the purpose of] the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice," one enters, or comes upon that field of time which we may now view as "the conclusion of the eons." The eonian times which are encompassed with in the scriptural revelation began to conclude once Christ's sacrifice was accomplished - when "He died to Sin once for all time" (Rom.6:10)."

    "Until then all awaited His sacrifice. The zenith had not been reached. All was still, so to say, "uphill." But once the great Sacrifice was made, when the Lord declared, "It is accomplished!" (John 19:30), the concluding portion of the eonian times began. The repudiation of sin is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ. It is not realized, however, until God vivifies all mankind, becomes All in all, and reconciles all estranged beings throughout the universe, accomplishing all "through the blood of [Christ's] cross" (Col.l:20; cp. Eph.l:10)."

    "Another consideration is that the definite article ("the") does not appear here in the Greek. It is not a matter of "at the conclusion of the eons" at all, even if we are constrained to put it this way in the Version, not yet having found a better solution while still preserving good diction. The idea is not to point to a particular moment, but to speak of having now entered into, or come upon, the concluding portion of the eons, which is thus set in contrast to the former or preceding portion."

    "The writer of Hebrews certainly did not know how long the present era would continue. Nor are any such considerations in view, whether in Hebrews 9 or else where in this epistle. Instead, the emphasis of Hebrews is that of the typical nature of the animal sacrifices in their representation of the sacrifice of Christ."

    "Even as the blood of calves and he-goats constituted a sufficient and effectual shelter for sin, thus also, the blood of Christ constitutes a sufficient and effectual means for the elimination of sin. If it were not for Christ's sacrifice, all would be doomed; but because of Christ's sacrifice, all will be delivered."

    "The viewpoint in Hebrews is antitypical. In other connections it may seem strange to include the rest of this eon and two more in the word 'conclusion.' Yet, when we consider the shadow, it becomes evident that the period here, however described, must include all of the time in which the sacrifice is operative, that is, until its work is accomplished." "

    "A concluding portion of a period of time need not necessarily be brief in duration. To say that it must is to confound ordinary usage with essential meaning. Besides, if the testimony of geology and astronomy is true, the first eon (prior to Genesis 1:2) may have been of such great duration that the time from the cross to the consummation actually will prove to be of relatively brief duration." [U.R., Vol. 82, p.16-22, 1991, James R. Coram]

    "..the Authorized Version will hardly excuse the rendering of Hebrews 9:26. "But now once in the end of the world hath He appeared . . ." cannot be explained on any rational grounds. Christ has appeared, but it certainly was not at the end of the world. The American Revisers change this to "the end of the age', which is very much better, so far as the word eon is concerned. But it is open to the same objection. The eons have not by any means ended even yet. Christ did not appear at either "the end of the world" or "the end of the ages". And, we may add, sin has not been "put away" in any plain, intelligible sense." (U.R., Vol 17, p.267, 1926, A.E.K.)

    "The A. V. tells us that Christ appeared "in the end of the world." This, of course, is impossible, seeing that almost two thousand years have passed since then and the end is not yet. In reality His manifestation marks the commencement of the conclusion of the eons. Just as the offering on the day of shelter, or "atonement" in Israel ushered in year in which there is cleansing of sin, so the sacrifice of Christ commences the conclusion of the eons in which sin is repudiated. A year in Israel, with its round of typical festivals, corresponds to the conclusion of the eons, in which the antitype of these festivals are found." [U.R., Vol 38, p.225, 1947, A.E.K.]

    "It is clear that His sacrifice was not at "the end of the world" (A.V.). However, the conclusion of the eon (Matt. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time, which is compared with harvest. The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word "conclusion.*
    * A more complete explanation of this passage, as rendered in the Concordant Version, is found in Unsearchable Riches, Volume 30, Number (March, 1939)." [U.R., Vol 56, p.156, 1965, A.E.K.]

    "This verse is designed to amplify the grand object of His one appearing, that is, Christ appeared once to offer Himself as a sacrifice in order to put away sin at the end of the ages or eons...Repudiation [of sin] is defined as to have no place for [sin] (Keyword Concordance, p. 246). When the last enemy, death, is put out of business, abolished, discarded, made unproductive (1 Corinthians 15:26), then sin will find no place anywhere in His world since sin reigns only in death (Romans 5:20). In other words, when God abolishes death, He also leaves no place for sin. This He will do at the end of the ages or eons. It is for this purpose that Christ has been manifested in His earthly career; and it is His sacrifice at Calvary's cross, His sacrifice for sin that makes sin's repudiation certain, since He is the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world (John 1:29)."

    "...The actual teaching of the passage can be verified as follows: Some current versions of this verse teach that Christ appeared at the end of the ages. Yet according to these same versions Paul, writing years after this appearing, speaks of ages to come (Ephesians 2:7). Thus two "authorized" versions make the apostle Paul flatly contradict what the writer of Hebrews said. Again, the devotees of versions which are not concordant and consistent find themselves involved in another conflict that cannot be reconciled, since their versions teach that Christ "appeared at the end of the ages" while, at the same time, their theology teaches that the ages never end."

    "...The Scriptures distinctly and emphatically teach that the eons had a beginning and will also have conclusion. The Scriptures point to time when the eons were not yet in existence, and they point to time when the eons shall pass away." [U.R., vol 60, p.120-122, 1969, F.N.P.]

    "This one verse (26) of Hebrews 9 takes us, in one sweeping statement, from the disruption of the world to the conclusion of the eons. Though Christ, as Saviour, is now manifest, sin will not be completely eliminated from the universe until the conclusion of the eons. But the acceptance by God of Christ's offering has made that elimination inevitable. But this wonderful scripture gives further proof that, just as the curtain which veiled God's presence, was rent in the earthly temple at the precise moment of Christ's death, so that spiritual veil which obstructed the approach of the celestials to God, was likewise rent; and there is nothing now, save their own spiritual blindness, to prevent them entering into the presence of God, and offering Him the "logical divine service" which is His due from all His creatures. (U.R., Vol 68, p.259-60, 1977, John H. Essex)

    "The conclusion of the eons is likewise involved in obscurity in our versions. They suggest that this august event has already occurred at the manifestation of Christ (Heb.9:26). However the words may be translated, the argument of the passage is clear. The high priest went in every year with the blood of others. Not so Christ. He sacrificed Himself once. There was no sacrifice on His part from the disruption, when sin entered, until His manifestation. Neither will there be any further offering needed all the way to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is repudiated. The single suffering of Christ suffices both for the past and future, from sin's entrance to its exit, from the disruption to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is put away. There is a sense in which sin is "put away" potentially or in the experience of the believer, but in the sense here indicated, as the antithesis of the disruption, it can refer only to the actual removal of sin itself —which will occur at the very time indicated, the conclusion of the eons."
    2. The Eon of the Eons

    "The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin. They record its entrance and foretell its exit. They had a definite Beginning and will have a definite Consummation...The grand infinitudes of time before the beginning and after the consummation have much in common, chiefly that in the beginning God is All was All: in the consummation He will be All in all. Sin is entirely absent. This cannot be said of any of the eons." The Divine Calendar

    "The power of the blood of Christ will prevail until sin is repudiated. This is at the conclusion of the eons."

    "...(1 Cor. 2:7:before the world [ages]" and Heb. 9:26: "end of the world", or, as Scofield says, "consummation of the ages" which, by the way, should refer to the future putting
    away of sin, not the time of Christ's sacrifice)" [U.R., Vol. 61, 1970, p.9, 270, A.E.K.).

    The following website articles elaborate upon this interpretation of Heb.9:26 in more detail:

    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.5, 1913-14, p.199-203, Alan Burns
    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.6, 1914-15, p.258-268, Vladimir Gelesnoff
    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.17, 1926, pgs.265-276, Adolph E. Knoch
    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.30, 1939, pgs.109-116, Adolph E. Knoch
    Unsearchable Riches

    (10) Some introductory historical remarks are required for the next point. The New Testament quotes from the Greek OT much more often than the Hebrew OT. An Old Testament in the Greek language accepted by the early church was known as the translation of Theodotian (see urls below for details). There was also the early Greek OT known as the LXX or Septuagint which has significant differences with the translation of Theodotian.

    THEODOTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

    "Theodotion's translation of Daniel supplanted the original LXX version which was quite different. The Book of Hebrews (11:33=Daniel 6:23) and Revelation both agree with Theodotion's translation (Origen's Hexapla contained these translations).
    "IBSS - The Bible - Old Testament: Septuagint

    "[Theodotian's] translation, however, is seemingly "quoted" in Heb. 11:33 and several times in Revelations! This strongly suggests that Theodotion's version was based upon either a lost Greek translation which competed with the LXX or upon a "revised" LXX...Theodotion's version of Daniel is the one officially accepted by the Church and usually printed in modern editions of the LXX..."St. Pachomius Library: SEPTUAGINT

    The book of Daniel is closely associated with the book of Revelation which contains our many references to the phrase "the ages of the ages". It seems, from the quotes above, that John was more likely to have used a Greek OT in harmony with that of Theodotian's rather than the LXX.

    In Daniel 12:3 this Greek OT of Theodotian, unlike the LXX, speaks of the "eons and further" [αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι]. This is in the context of resurrection spoken of in verse 2, which recalls the resurrections of the book of Revelation. Could Daniel's reference to "the eons and further" be to a time beyond "the eons of the eons" spoken of in Revelation? Both make reference to eons, but Daniel speaks of what is beyond "the eons". It seems Daniel may be speaking of a time after that of John's Revelation references to eons, which would make "the eons of the eons" of a finite duration. If John had wished to convince his readers of the idea of endless eons, readers who may have been familiar with Daniel 12:3, it seems that speaking of mere "eons of the eons" was not the way to do it.


    (11) John of Damascus (676-749 AD) writes of "limitless(απειρους/apeirous) aeons of the aeons". If "eons of the eons" was universally understood as meaning forever and ever or endlessness, would there be a need to add the word "limitless" to it?
    απειρους — с греческого на все языки

    http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55753
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....ei_Orthodoxae_(MPG_94_0789_1227)__GM.pdf.html
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....a_Fidei_Orthodoxae_(MPG_94_0789_1227),_GM.pdf

    Similarly Philo, a contemporary with Jesus, spoke of an unlimited eon. Heleena Keizer wrote "Ton apeiron aiona, "the unlimited aion", is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exodus 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo, ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of "all, endless time" (chapter II text [33])...The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of contunuity by the words "not for one moment ungoverned" and "uninterrupted"." ("Life Time Entirety: A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo", Helena M. Keizer, 2010, p.212).
    https://books.google.ca/books/about/Life_Time_Entirety_A_Study_of_AION_in_Gr.html?id=l-SmshbeyUsC

    http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρον/el/xx/
    http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρα/el/xx/

    If God wanted to clearly & unambiguously teach endless punishment in the Scriptures, why, then, did Revelation 20:10 not speak of torment for "endless[apeiron] ages"?

    (12) The word aion literally means age, or eon. Why would the Lord's word say eons (Rev.20:10) if He meant endlessness? If endlessness was meant, then the Greek language of the time had a number of ways of expressing it unambiguously. In addition to apeiron, there were the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) to express the idea of endlessness. In Luke they are spoken of God's kingdom. Likewise:

    σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν (LXX; Psa.102:27, God's years have "no end")
    27But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Psa.102:27, Brenton LXX trans.
    But you remain the same, and your years will never end. (Heb.1:12b)

    ****************************


    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/
    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://lovewins.us/
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What does Origen mean by eternal? See below Origen quoting Paul [14 times]. Note, this is all my own work not a copy/paste from some website.
    • Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
    [1]28. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence;(cf. 2 Cor 4:18) while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages.
    Origen Against Celsus. Book VI.Chap XIX
    Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which [2]are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.” (cf. 2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
    Chap. XX.
    Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also, that things [3]“seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;” (cf. 2 Cor 4:18) and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,”
    • Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. 1
    [4]23. For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts - according as they shall be deemed worthy - some in the place which is called “hell,” others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used,134 do they come down from the “upper world” to this “hell.” For that “hell” to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world , is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: “[color=redThou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell[/color]” (Cf. Psa_30:3 and Deu_32:22)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. I.
    6. Certainly, what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet is not corrupted, because the will of God, who made it and holds it together lest corruption should rule over it, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more correctly be supposed of that world which we have called above a “non-wandering” sphere, since by the will of God it is not at all subject to corruption, for the reason that it has not admired any causes of corruption, seeing it is the world of the saints and of the thoroughly purified, and not of the wicked, like that world of ours. We must see, [5]moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Cor 4:18-5:1)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book III.Chap. V
    4. It seems worth while, then, to inquire what is meant by this new term; and I am, indeed, of [6]opinion250 that, as the end and consummation of the saints will be in those (ages) which are not seen, and are eternal, we must conclude (as frequently pointed out in the preceding pages), from a contemplation of that very end, that rational creatures had also a similar beginning. And if they had a beginning such as the end for which they hope, they existed undoubtedly from the very beginning in those (ages) which are not seen, and are eternal.
    • Origen De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
    [7]4. Respecting the body also, the apostle has said, “ We have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,” (2Co_5:1) i.e., in the mansions of the blessed. And from this statement we may form a conjecture, how pure, how refined, and how glorious are the qualities of that body, if we compare it with those which, although they are celestial bodies, and of most brilliant splendour, were nevertheless made with hands, and are visible to our sight. But of that body it is said, that it is a house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens. Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal,” (2Co_4:18) all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.(cf. 2 Cor 5:1);
    [8]6. And in this condition, also, we are to believe, that by the will of the Creator, it will abide for ever without any change, as is confirmed by the declaration of the apostle, when he says, “ We have a house, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”(cf. 2 Cor 5:1)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book I Chap VI
    [9]4. But since Paul says that certain things are visible and temporal, and others besides these invisible and eternal, (cf. 2 Cor 4:18) we proceed to inquire how those things which are seen are temporal - whether because there will be nothing at all after them in all those periods of the coming world, in which that dispersion and separation from the one beginning is undergoing a process of restoration to one and the same end and likeness; or because, while the form of those things which are seen passes away, their essential nature is subject to no corruption.
    • Origen De Principiis. Book II.Chap III
    6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we [10]look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands,(cf. 2 Cor 5:1) pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
    • Origen Against Celsus. Book III. Chap. XLVII.
    But it is probable that what is written by Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians, (cf. 1Co_1:18, etc.) as being addressed to Greeks who prided themselves greatly on their Grecian wisdom, has moved some to believe that it was not the object of the Gospel to win wise men. Now, let him who is of this opinion understand that the Gospel, as censuring wicked men, says of them that they are wise [11]not in things which relate to the understanding, and which are unseen and eternal; (cf. 2 Cor 4:18) but that in busying themselves about things of sense alone, and regarding these as all-important, they are wise men of the world: for as there are in existence a multitude of opinions, some of them espousing the cause of matter and bodies, and asserting that everything is corporeal which has a substantial existence, and that besides these nothing else exists, whether it be called invisible or incorporeal, it says also that these constitute the wisdom of the world, which perishes and fades away, and belongs only to this age, while those opinions which raise the soul from things here to the blessedness which is with God, and to His kingdom, and which teach men to despise all sensible and visible things as existing only for a season, and to hasten on to things invisible, and to have regard to those things which are not seen, - these, it says, constitute the wisdom of God.
    • Origen Against Celsus. Book VI Chap. XIX
    Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the [12]Corinthians: “ For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.”(cf. 2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
    Chap. XX.
    Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also, [13] that things “seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;”(cf. 2 Cor 4:18). and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,” and during the season of afflictions and troubles was not at all bowed down by them, but by his contemplation of (divine) things deemed every calamity a light thing, seeing we also have “a great High Priest,” who by the greatness of His power and understanding “has passed through the heavens, even Jesus the Son of God,” who has promised to all that have truly learned divine things, and have lived lives in harmony with them, to go before them to the things that are supra-mundane; for His words are: “That where I go, ye may be also.”
    • Origen Against Celsus. Book VII Chap. XXXII.
    Then, again, as there is “a tabernacle” and “an earthly house” which is in some sort necessary for this [14]tabernacle, Scripture teaches us that “the earthly house of this tabernacle shall be dissolved,” but that the tabernacle shall “be clothed upon with a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2Co_5:1)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I
    36. And not only so, but because the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.
    • Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis. Preface of Rufinus.
    5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)
    6. And when He says to those on His right hand, “Come, ye blessed of My Father,” etc.; “for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me to eat; I was athirst, and ye gave Me to drink,” (Mat_25:34) it is exceedingly manifest that He gives the promises to these as being deserving of praise. But, on the contrary, to the others, as being censurable in comparison with them, He says, “Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire! ” (Mat_25:41)

     
  13. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    RE: POST#28 Q: ..."I have never found a scripture in the Bible that say we have "souls"..."

    Let's do some spiritual math!

    God created Man in His own SPIRITUAL Image, Likeness (Genesis 1:26)

    God has no BODY.(sarx) God has no SOUL.(psyche)

    God is SPIRIT. (worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH) John 4:24

    Man has a Body/Soul combo which is mortal.
    AND Man has a SPIRIT which is immortal.

    Soul and SPIRIT are separate and different. SPIRIT "communes" with Soul.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 ...MAN'S 3 "PARTS"

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your 1. SPIRIT (pneuma) and 2. SOUL (psyche) and 3. BODY (sarx/soma) be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 (ALL NASB)
    For the "word of God" is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
    and piercing as far as the division of SOUL(PSYCHE) and SPIRIT(PNEUMA),
    of both joints and marrow (BODY/SARX-SOMA),
    and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the "heart".

    of the heart...GREEK 2588...kardia...denotes the (INTERACTIVE) center of all physical and spiritual life b. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
    c. of the will and character (CONSCIENCE?)

    1 Corinthians 6:19-20
    Or do you not know that your BODY (/SOUL combo) is a "temple"(house?) of (God) the Holy Spirit who is IN you, whom you have from God (the Father_, and that you are not your own?
    For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

    Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH, SPIRIT returns to God
    Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth,
    before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say,
    "I have no delight in them";...
    For man goes to his ETERNAL (spiritual) home while mourners go about in the street....
    7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
    and the SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
    8 "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "all is vanity!

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the Lord,
    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
    Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
    Who gives breath to the people on it (Body/Soul combo)
    And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

    Zechariah 12:1 ...Thus declares the Lord
    who stretches out the heavens,
    lays the foundation of the earth, and
    forms the SPIRIT of man within him,


    THUS: ManKIND is divided into 3 parts:


    1. SPIRIT = (~God conscience/ spiritual GOD Image = pneuma),

    2. SOUL = (~psyche / personality / God CHARACTER~ Likeness = psyche) and

    3. BODY = (~man's machine, controlled by brain bucket/CNS = sarx/SOMA)

    The SOUL of Mankind (male and female) is also a DYNAMIC REACTION of its 3 parts:

    1. MIND...the process of intellect...stored knowledge...its function is "thinking" / "reasoning"

    2. WILL...your decision maker...your computer-reactor...your balancer

    3. EMOTIONS...how you "feel"...natural reactions / intuitive responses

    The Body of Man has its 5 senses / sensors (maybe 6?) to interact with environment....Biology 101

    The Soul of Man is the "snowflake" individual personality which starts with some genetic predispositions and is generally developed in and around the brain "bucket" and CNS electrical conductions...Psychology 101

    The Spirit of Man searches for its Creator,..Bible 101
    At the time of salvation, the battle begins:
    OLD MAN: BODY / SOUL against God ...
    VERSUS.
    NEW MAN: BODY / SOUL / CHANGED SPIRIT + Indwelling God The Holy SPIRIT.

    Jewish tradition (?) believed that you:
    1. KNOW in your "heart"...Spirit / conscience
    2. FEEL in your "gut"...emotions
    3. DECIDE in your "head"/brain...mind
     
  14. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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  15. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your following statement is a logical fallacy:

    "God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time."

    That it is a logical error can be easily seen by the following statement: God lives "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing.

    Now on to 1 Tim.1:17 from a literal version, rather than your deceptive misleading pro endless torments translators:

    Young's Literal Translation
    and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    Compare Dan. 12:3 of the Greek OT which speaks of "ages and further" to the mere "ages" of 1 Tim.1:17. Dan. 12:3 says when "ages" end there is something "further" beyond them. So "the ages" of 1 Tim.1:17 can be understood in light of Dan.12:3 to be of finite duration. For more details on this point see point #10 at post #131 above.

    See also my entire posts #'s 130 and #131 above re 12 arguments re multiple ages being finite & having an end.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Robert Young was self taught. His writings obviously reflect his assumptions/presuppositions. Were one to actually study Greek, they might learn that words were repeated for emphasis e.g. Jesus prefixing some of His sayings with "Amen, Amen" The grammatical term for this "epizeuxis" when there are no words separating the two words and "geminato" when one or more words separate the two repeated words.
    Empty arguments. Here is an example of the figure of speech "germinato" and also employs the Greek word υπερβολην/uperbolen from which the English word "hyperbole" is derived. The literal translation would be "exceeding unto exceeding" but KJV translates it "far more exceeding."
    2 Co 4:17
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
    2Co 4:17
    (17) το γαρ παραυτικα ελαφρον της θλιψεως ημων καθ υπερβολην εις υπερβολην αιωνιον βαρος δοξης κατεργαζεται ημιν
    I have just shown conclusively, from scripture, that "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων"/eis tous aionas ton aionon" is merely a figure of speech "epizeuxis," repitition for emphasis. It does not prove that aion has an end. Sorry about that.
    I ignore bulk copy pastes.
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Everyone has assumptions & biases. Others translate as Young (who is quite well respected amongst scholars), such as, for a few examples:

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Now to the king of ages

    Darby Bible Translation
    Now to the King of the ages, [the] incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages. Amen.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Now to the immortal and invisible King of the Ages, who alone is God, be honour and glory to the Ages of the Ages! Amen.

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    And numerous sources acknowledge the literal meaning of aion, not as eternal/eternity, but an age, eon. As i've previously stated, which you said was wrong.

    If aion/olam meant eternity, then Scripture says:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ETERNITY:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.


    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

    Which is irrelevant to the fact that your comment was a logical fallacy. Your point & argument therefore fails. Furthermore, since you made the same type of comment re the vast majority of your 8 aion/ios verses, the same applies to them. Logical fallacy. Argument fails.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

    1 Peter 1:23 Commentaries: for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

    As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

    1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    and also this

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    Index of /interlinear/1_peter
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I certainly appreciate these futile and misguided attempts to refute my 8 passages which grammatically, conclusively show that αἰών/aion means eternity and αἰώνιος/aionios means "eternal." Thanks for pointing this out to me I will make the necessary changes to my notes. While some manuscripts do not have aion in vs. 23. note that the contrast between perishable and imperishable shows that being born again is eternal not some finite period. Now let us turn our attention to vss. 24-25.
    1 Peter 1:23-25
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
    (24) For, "All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever."[αἰών/aion] And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In vs. 25 aion is contrasted with "withers and falls," vs. 24, the word of God does not wither and fall thus it endures forever not a finite age. Once again I have been proven right. Can you show me any verse where aion or aionios is in apposition to a word which means a finite period or either word is contrasted with an infinite period?
     
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