The Logical Premise?

[Kylie]

Why can't we discern the absolutes of good and evil? Because we're not omniscient.

You are assuming that such absolutes exist.

 

[Resha Caner]

You are assuming that such absolutes exist.

That's beside the point. Even if you remove "absolute" from the discussion, it still seems to me the question you posed (and I quoted) is meaningless. It's still a matter of deciding whether or not to seek God's will. If you don't think God exists, you've obviously defaulted to not seeking his will.

 

[bhsmte]

That's beside the point. Even if you remove "absolute" from the discussion, it still seems to me the question you posed (and I quoted) is meaningless. It's still a matter of deciding whether or not to seek God's will. If you don't think God exists, you've obviously defaulted to not seeking his will.

Some seek what they really want to be true, some seek what can be indepently verified as likely being true. Typically, personal psychology plays a large role in which path a person takes. Whatever path helps a person cope with life and be a better person, is the right fit for them.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Why can't we discern the absolutes of good and evil? Because we're not omniscient.

How do you know good and evil are "absolute"?

That is part and parcel of the Euthyphro dilemma discussed earlier in this thread.

One of your co-religionists "solved" the dilemma by effectively unilaterally decreeing that God defines good and evil. As such it does appear to be technically arbitrary.

 

[Obliquinaut]

That's beside the point. Even if you remove "absolute" from the discussion, it still seems to me the question you posed (and I quoted) is meaningless. It's still a matter of deciding whether or not to seek God's will. If you don't think God exists, you've obviously defaulted to not seeking his will.

Interesting you should say that. You see, while I don't seek God's will, if you met me IRL you'd never know I was an atheist. You and I would largely seek to do the exact same things. We'd hope for good for others, we'd do what we can to ease our neighbor's burden, etc.

God's will is often just a label some people put on their actions, but their actions are their own.

Look at some of the actions of people on CF: we have Christians who bear false witness and attack people just as if there was no God providing them a guideline. We have atheists who do the same thing but we are assured it is because they have no moral guideline. We have atheists on here who say wonderful words of peace and love as well!

God never stopped anyone from doing whatever evil is truly in their heart and a lack of God never stopped anyone from doing whatever good is truly in their heart (and vice versa).

 

[Resha Caner]

we have Christians who bear false witness and attack people just as if there was no God providing them a guideline. We have atheists who do the same thing but we are assured it is because they have no moral guideline.

Yeah, people of all stripes do bad things.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Yeah, people of all stripes do bad things.

I think you have missed the point by a fair bit. The point being: when you say that seeking God's will is the choice, I am merely pointing out that whether one seeks it or not, we usually all do the same things.

It seems that some people wish to focus only on the evil. But that wasn't my point. My point was the focus on the GOOD.

 

[bhsmte]

Yeah, people of all stripes do bad things.

Indeed. Why do you think that is?

 

[Resha Caner]

My point was the focus on the GOOD.

Shrug. OK. I never claimed God enabled "good" only in Christians. The corollary to my comment would be: People of all stripes do good things.

I think you have missed the point by a fair bit. The point being: when you say that seeking God's will is the choice, I am merely pointing out that whether one seeks it or not, we usually all do the same things.

If that's your position, I'm not going to argue it with you. I happen to have a different opinion. God has influenced my behavior. Even for those who don't believe God exists, I expected they could see that the Bible has influenced people's behavior - my behavior.

That doesn't mean I would argue no one else has been influenced by other sources in some way. For some, their parents influence them. Sometimes it's a pop star or a philosopher or a teacher. I think we're all influenced by someone at some point. It's part of being human.

It's also impossible to know how someone would have been different without that influence - how I would have behaved had I not been influenced by God.

 

[Resha Caner]

Indeed. Why do you think that is?

Anything beyond a trivial answer would require specifics - something I'm not particularly interested in pursuing.

 

[Kylie]

That's beside the point.

How so? You're the one who proposed God's ability to understand absolutes that we lowly mortals can't as something important.

Even if you remove "absolute" from the discussion, it still seems to me the question you posed (and I quoted) is meaningless. It's still a matter of deciding whether or not to seek God's will. If you don't think God exists, you've obviously defaulted to not seeking his will.

And why would I seek the will of a being I don't think exists?

 

[Resha Caner]

How so? You're the one who proposed God's ability to understand absolutes that we lowly mortals can't as something important.

I did say that. I just think the situation would be the same even in a relativist moral system.

And why would I seek the will of a being I don't think exists?

You wouldn't.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Shrug. OK. I never claimed God enabled "good" only in Christians. The corollary to my comment would be: People of all stripes do good things.



If that's your position, I'm not going to argue it with you. I happen to have a different opinion. God has influenced my behavior. Even for those who don't believe God exists, I expected they could see that the Bible has influenced people's behavior - my behavior.

It is clear you are still annoyed from our previous discussion. My apologies again.

My apologies for putting any thought into replying to your post.

 

[lesliedellow]

It is clear you are still annoyed from our previous discussion. My apologies again.

My apologies for putting any thought into replying to your post.

"The point being: when you say that seeking God's will is the choice, I am merely pointing out that whether one seeks it or not, we usually all do the same things."

Does that mean that, as a good atheist, you will be observing the first four of the ten commandments?

I will now retire from this thread again.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Does that mean that, as a good atheist, you will be observing the first four of the ten commandments?

I will now retire from this thread again.

Of course not. That is a silly question. Is that really the most important stuff in the Ten Commandments? Is that the essence of morality and seeking God's desires?

If God is primarily interested in Worship (and there is reason to believe that is the case in some views) then morality, again, has no value from that stand point. But I don't believe that to be the value of morality.

My point was that if you met me IRL you would never know I'm an atheist based on my actions. My morality would appear very much as yours. In fact, unless I knew you very well it is highly unlikely I'd even take your lord's name in vain...because I don't wish to offend people I don't know! And if I did know you well, I'd still likely not do it if it offended you!

 

[Obliquinaut]

Anything beyond a trivial answer would require specifics - something I'm not particularly interested in pursuing.

No it doesn't. Doesn't require any specifics at all. People are people. Regardless of faith they tend to behave similarly. There are no real societies in which murdering one's neighbor or lying about one's neighbor are "acceptable".

That's why the Golden Rule shows up in so many different traditions predating even Luke 6:31.

 

[AV1611VET]

My morality would appear very much as yours.

A lot of those people are called wolves in sheeps' clothing; and all of them are called "goats."

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

I used to play Euchre with a couple of people who would give you the shirt off their backs.

I was convinced they would throw themselves in front of a train if it would save your life.

But both of them were practicing Satanists.

 

[Resha Caner]

People are people.

This doesn't explain why one person murdered and another didn't.

 

[bhsmte]

This doesn't explain why one person murdered and another didn't.

That is a deeper dive. The reality is, humans can find motivation to do all sorts of bad things, including murder, regardless of if they are a believer or not.

 

[Resha Caner]

That is a deeper dive. The reality is, humans can find motivation to do all sorts of bad things, including murder, regardless of if they are a believer or not.

Sure.