Did you take the time to read 2 Kings 6:14-17. This scripture identifies spirit horses and chariots that are unseen by normal human eyes.
So please explain this scripture to me if their is nothing in the scriptures to justify the idea that our spirits were ever anywhere before we were born.
Thank you.
John 9:2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents,
that he was born blind?
The disciples were aware of some prior realm -- I realize Jesus answered neither to this -- but that does not negate the obvious thoughts on the disciples' part that the man could have possibly sinned in another realm or state of existence.
In Jeremiah 1 he is told
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
In our Book of Abraham he sees the spirits before they are born.
Abr 3
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
The bible says that the eyes of the servant were opened and he beheld the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire.Uh . . . . what makes you think those "spirit horses and chariots" are us?
But that is a very interesting passage. The prophet prayed for the Lord to open the eyes of the servant and show him their spiritual defenders.
2 Kings 6:17a
17 Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see."
NASU
How can that possibly be done? After all, the spiritual forces are spirit, not matter, they would be inherently invisible.
THe Lord came through with an answer that was not literally true, but essentially true.
2 Kings 6:17b
And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
NASU
The spiritual forces protecting Elisha were not really horses. They were not really chariots. They were, however, real, and as powerful as horses and chariots . . . even more so.
So the servant understood what he needed to understand.
But there is nothing in this passage to teach that these spiritual forces would later become born as human beings, perhaps your child or mine. You need to understand there is more out there than just human beings.
The superstitions of the disciples at that time in their education is not a great guide for us; moreover, they were not asserting they knew something, they were trying to find out something; moreover, their words don't preclude a judgement by God at birth, God knowing all things, for a sin committed following birth.
You will note that the Savior did not correct them in their thoughts that possibly this man sinned pre-earth.You're just reaching. The superstitions of the disciples at that time in their education is not a great guide for us; moreover, they were not asserting they knew something, they were trying to find out something; moreover, their words don't preclude a judgement by God at birth, God knowing all things, for a sin committed following birth.
Sorry, you have not established any such thing as you claim.
The bible says that the eyes of the servant were opened and he beheld the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire.
Then you come along and say, well this is just not true, how can this happen?
And then you say, "they were not really chariots, they were, however, real, and as powerful as horses and chariots, even more so.
Who is the 'theys' that you are talking about. 'They' were not really chariots.
'They' were real and as powerful as horses and chariots, even more so. So who were 'They'?
There is nothing that does say these horses and chariots would be eventually horses and chariots on earth. But it is enough that they exist in a world of spirit. That was the point. The world of spirits exists, even that there are horse spirits and chariot spirits, and obviously men and women spirits.
Nothing in this scripture indicates that 'they' were not literally spirit entities, unseen by normal mortal eyes, but seen by eyes that have been given the power to see this world. This was not a metaphorical event. It was real.
Psalm 139:15
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
You will note that the Savior did not correct them in their thoughts that possibly this man sinned pre-earth.
Well, you will just have to argue with Elisha about that. He said horses. The last time I looked at images of horses, they had 4 legs and a swishing tail. I suspect he knew what a horse looked like. We may not be able to affirm this, but the bible is a good 2nd source.We know that the forces protecting Elisha were real. Spirit entities are not horses and chariots, but they are real. We cannot affirm they have four feet and a tail. We can affirm they are powerful and effective.
The scripture says 'did this man or this man's parents sin, that he was born blind?Did this man or this man's parents sin?
Jesus' response? "οὔτε". No, neither.
-CryptoLutheran
The scripture ways 'did this man or this man's parents sin, that he was born blind?
The apostles knew there was a pre-earth life, that is why they were willing to consider that this man could have sinned in that pre-earth life before he was born in order to be born blind.
Obviously, his parents could have sinned causing him to be born blind.
But the Savior said, No, neither. But that answer does not stop the apostles from thinking there was a pre-earth life. Jesus just tells them he did not sin in his pre-earth life, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. But Jesus did not deny to his apostles that there was a pre-earth life. Only that this man was not born blind because of his sins in this pre-earth life.
The scripture ways 'did this man or this man's parents sin, that he was born blind?
The apostles knew there was a pre-earth life, that is why they were willing to consider that this man could have sinned in that pre-earth life before he was born in order to be born blind.
Obviously, his parents could have sinned causing him to be born blind.
But the Savior said, No, neither. But that answer does not stop the apostles from thinking there was a pre-earth life. Jesus just tells them he did not sin in his pre-earth life, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. But Jesus did not deny to his apostles that there was a pre-earth life. Only that this man was not born blind because of his sins in this pre-earth life.
If you give it just a few seconds of thought, it is not a strange place. The apostles said, 'did this man sin, that he was born blind'.Clearly you think you have read the minds of the apostles and you think they must have been correct when they were thinking the thoughts you read there.
I cannot follow you into those strange places.
Unless you are a time-traveling telepath, then this is pure guesswork on your part.
ViaCrucis says:
There's nothing in the text about a "pre-earth life", not even in the question, "Did this man sin?". That's an act of eisegesis.
St. John Chrysostom (Homily 56 on John) looks to ask why the disciples would ask this, and he finds his answer in John 5, the disciples having come to a misunderstanding, Jesus' healed the paralytic man and instructs him "go and sin no more"; they then, therefore, misunderstand and assume that the blind man's malady must be on account of some sin. Aquinas, likewise, refers back to Chrysostom here (Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on John, ch. 9, 1296); Aquinas further notes that by saying "neither this man sinned nor his parents" Jesus has excluded such a possibility altogether.
Herein we learn that such things as this are not curses, Jesus has excluded such a way of thinking by denying it, and instead declaring that it is for the glory of God manifest through His Son, and thereby healing the blind man.
Do the disciples imagine there was a time when the man could have sinned before birth? The text does not tell us; and any inference is idle conjecture and speculation. One might as well propose metemphsychosis as pre-existence, both have equal validity as idle speculation on this point. But at the end of the day no conjecture matters, for Christ has denied its possibility by saying "oute" neither.
-CryptoLutheran
There's nothing in the text about a "pre-earth life", not even in the question, "Did this man sin?". That's an act of eisegesis.
Clearly you think you have read the minds of the apostles and you think they must have been correct when they were thinking the thoughts you read there.
I cannot follow you into those strange places.
I have taken you to a couple of strange places the last couple of days.
But they are only strange because you have never been taught such things. It really is not so strange to think that we existed pre-earth, as spirit children of God the Father. There are many biblical scriptures that testify of this doctrine.
It may be new to you, but not to LDS.