The spirit world - a history before history

Anto9us

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A thread for discussing things like -- cherubim were already existing, Satan had already been created and fallen before Garden of Eden -- in other words, what in the spirit world went on before Genesis 1?

And were our spirits a part of things then, and how?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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A thread for discussing things like -- cherubim were already existing, Satan had already been created and fallen before Garden of Eden -- in other words, what in the spirit world went on before Genesis 1?

And were our spirits a part of things then, and how?

Somehow, Satan achieved certain rights and privileges in our world. How and when did that happen?

Luke 4:6-7 And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours." NASU
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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True, Paul, and there was no question that the kingdoms of the world were Satan's to give...

I like to speculate that Satan received certain rights and privileges to this planet before his fall. But I remain aware it is only speculation.
 
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withwonderingawe

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In Mormon theology God the Father created all things spiritually right down to the last blade of grass before it was in the earth and before it grew, then Yahweh created everything from the dust of the earth.

You and I and everyone were living in the spirit world before we came here to earth. This earth life is a learning and testing ground of sorts, to learn to trust God in all things and to see if we can learn to choose good over evil.

Yahweh and Lucifer and all of us are children of God. Yahweh bowed the knee to the Father and said Thy will be done and Lucifer wanted to put his throne above God and there was war in heaven.

The plan of redemption was placed before us and the need for a Savior was explained. Jesus/Yahweh said he was willing to do it and the glory be thine. Lucifer said he would go too but in his plan there would be no sins committed, he would take away the agency of man. And the glory be mine.

It was put to a vote; who would follow Yahweh and who would follow Lucifer. 1/3 went with Lucifer and the rest choose to follow Jesus/Yahweh. It really didn’t matter if it had been the other way around Yahweh was the Father’s chosen one and God’s kingdom is not a democracy.

We each are sent at our appoint time and place and are given a period of time to experience good and evil.
 
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ViaCrucis

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To speak of a primordial "spirit world" is, I would argue, inherently problematic because it lends itself needlessly to Platonism, or worse, Gnosticism; i.e. that there is anterior to the universe a realm of pure spirit. Such an idea has no basis in Scripture, nor in historic Christian teaching, but does have basis in Platonic thought and its corruption in Gnostic thought (see: the World of Ideas and the Pleroma).

Scripture itself, while mentioning the existence of the angels and their fallen former compatriots, the devils or fallen angels, never itself talks about the creation of the angels or the fall of the devils (or even the cause of it). We get a few ideas showing up in the 2nd Temple Period, for example the Book of Enoch, but such things are never mentioned or discussed in Canonical literature.

I would argue that the silence of Holy Scripture ought to be taken seriously here, and speculations on the subject, while fine insofar as speculation itself goes, ought to be tread upon carefully. The Scriptures, and the unfolding drama of redemption it communicates, is focused on human beings, our place in creation, and ultimately our--and creation itself--salvation, redemption, and renewal in the Age to Come in the resurrection through the good purposes and promises of God realized and accomplished through Jesus Christ our Lord, by His life, death, resurrection, and future parousia. Insofar as we are told anything about the faithful angels and the fallen angels at all, it exists largely in relation to us, our salvation, the story of redemption, and in the case of the devils specifically that they are like a growling, snarling beast seeking to devour and turn us away from God and thus we are commanded to resist them.

So when were the angels created? We don't know.
When did the devils fall? We don't know.
What is the precise cause of the diabolic fall? We don't know.

As such all that is left to us is speculation and conjecture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Peter1000

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To speak of a primordial "spirit world" is, I would argue, inherently problematic because it lends itself needlessly to Platonism, or worse, Gnosticism; i.e. that there is anterior to the universe a realm of pure spirit. Such an idea has no basis in Scripture, nor in historic Christian teaching, but does have basis in Platonic thought and its corruption in Gnostic thought (see: the World of Ideas and the Pleroma).

Scripture itself, while mentioning the existence of the angels and their fallen former compatriots, the devils or fallen angels, never itself talks about the creation of the angels or the fall of the devils (or even the cause of it). We get a few ideas showing up in the 2nd Temple Period, for example the Book of Enoch, but such things are never mentioned or discussed in Canonical literature.

I would argue that the silence of Holy Scripture ought to be taken seriously here, and speculations on the subject, while fine insofar as speculation itself goes, ought to be tread upon carefully. The Scriptures, and the unfolding drama of redemption it communicates, is focused on human beings, our place in creation, and ultimately our--and creation itself--salvation, redemption, and renewal in the Age to Come in the resurrection through the good purposes and promises of God realized and accomplished through Jesus Christ our Lord, by His life, death, resurrection, and future parousia. Insofar as we are told anything about the faithful angels and the fallen angels at all, it exists largely in relation to us, our salvation, the story of redemption, and in the case of the devils specifically that they are like a growling, snarling beast seeking to devour and turn us away from God and thus we are commanded to resist them.

So when were the angels created? We don't know.
When did the devils fall? We don't know.
What is the precise cause of the diabolic fall? We don't know.

As such all that is left to us is speculation and conjecture.

-CryptoLutheran
We do know the angels (spirit sons of God) were before the earth was created.
We do know that lucifer/satan was a spirit son of God before the earth was created and we know why he fell and when. He had to have fallen before the garden of Eden, because he was there. So he and his followers were in heaven and were spirit sons of God (angels) before the earth, but he went to war with God and His Christ and lost (see Revelations 12). He and his followers were cast to the new earth before Adam and Eve were created and put in the garden of Eden.

We know why he went to war.
We know lucifer was a very highly thought of angel of God, and could have been next to Jesus who was next to God.
We know that he wanted to be higher than all the other angels and in fact higher than God Himself. (Isaiah 14:12)
We know lucifer hated Jesus, because God Jesus knelt before the Father and said thy will be done. Lucifer had a different plan and when the Father chose Jesus over lucifer, lucifer went another direction to usurp Jesus and God. He went after the spirit sons of God to turn them to his plan. He was successful in turning about 1/3 of the angels (see Revelations 12), but it was not enough and lost the war. He and his followers were thrown out to the earth, and became satan and the devils that followed satan are the evil spririts that Jesus cast out during his ministry.

The bible tells us a lot of this pre-earth life, you just will not acknowledge it. We know a lot about lucifer and his fall and we know he is satan here on earth, and is continuing his battle with Jesus for the souls of men.

The pre-earth existence was real and is real. It really has a history before history. I like that saying Anto9us.
 
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Peter1000

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Somehow, Satan achieved certain rights and privileges in our world. How and when did that happen?

Luke 4:6-7 And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours." NASU
Are you sure satan could have delivered on his statement. Remember satan is the father of lies. If Jesus had fallen for one of his grandiose statements, I believe satan would have laughed at Jesus and left him standing there with his mouth wide open. I don't think satan could have delivered?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Are you sure satan could have delivered on his statement. Remember satan is the father of lies. If Jesus had fallen for one of his grandiose statements, I believe satan would have laughed at Jesus and left him standing there with his mouth wide open. I don't think satan could have delivered?

It is indeed a further question as to whether or not Satan could deliver on such a promise; not only that, if he could later take it back, after the harm he desired had been done, what would stop him?

So I agree that trusting Satan to keep his end of a bad bargain is a bad idea and not just because of the badness of the bargain.

However, it would appear the temptation had some strength to it and that is best explained by taking the offer from Satan as a real possibility.
 
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Peter1000

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It is indeed a further question as to whether or not Satan could deliver on such a promise; not only that, if he could later take it back, after the harm he desired had been done, what would stop him?

So I agree that trusting Satan to keep his end of a bad bargain is a bad idea and not just because of the badness of the bargain.

However, it would appear the temptation had some strength to it and that is best explained by taking the offer from Satan as a real possibility.
Interesting discussion, but unfortunately, we will never really know the answer to that question.

Besides 2 of the 3 temptations were for Jesus to prove he was the son of God.
Only the last, when satan took Jesus to a high mountain and told him to look at the kingdoms of the world and that if Jesus worshipped him, satan would give him those kingdoms. Like I say, we will never know if satan could have delivered those kingdoms??? We do know that Jesus was promised , if he was able to overcome this world, he would be given those kingdoms by his Father, God. Jesus won again.
 
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Peter1000

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A thread for discussing things like -- cherubim were already existing, Satan had already been created and fallen before Garden of Eden -- in other words, what in the spirit world went on before Genesis 1?

And were our spirits a part of things then, and how?
Our spirits were called by many names in the pre-earth life:
1) angels
2) sons of God
3) morning stars
4) fellows
5) the host of heaven
6) spirit(s)
7) children of God
8) breath of life
9) evil spirit(s)

Our spirits were there in the world of spirits before the world began. There was a history before history. (See 2 Kings 6:14-17 to see a tiny snippet of this spirit world opened up for just a moment for mortal eyes to behold)
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Our spirits were called by many names in the pre-earth life:
1) angels
2) sons of God
3) morning stars
4) fellows
5) the host of heaven
6) spirit(s)
7) children of God
8) breath of life
9) evil spirit(s)

Our spirits were there in the world of spirits before the world began. There was a history before history. (See 2 Kings 6:14-17 to see a tiny snippet of this spirit world opened up for just a moment for mortal eyes to behold)

There is nothing anywhere in scripture to justify the idea that our spirits were ever anywhere before we were born.
 
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Anto9us

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Ecc 12:3
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

Ecc 12:4
And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;

Ecc 12:5
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

Ecc 12:6
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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Anto9us

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I don't know of any "heavenly Mother",however -- we have the feminine figure of Wisdom (Sophia) in Proverbs 8 -- as pre-existing:

Pro 8:22

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pro 8:23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pro 8:24

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Pro 8:25

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pro 8:26

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Pro 8:27

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Pro 8:28

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Pro 8:29

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Pro 8:30

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Pro 8:31

Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
 
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Peter1000

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There is nothing anywhere in scripture to justify the idea that our spirits were ever anywhere before we were born.
Yes there is, you have just not been taught these things, so they are new to you.
You have not been taught because your pastors do not know. They do not know because the seminary they graduated from did not believe in this doctrine, and so all the scriptures pertaining to this pre-earth life are completely ignored and glossed over as kind of weird.

So for you to say there is nothing anywhere in scripture to justify that our spirits were ever anywhere before we were born is just an ignorant statement. And I use the word 'ignorant' to signify lack of knowledge.
 
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withwonderingawe

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1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even fromeverlasting to everwhat is going on with my postings l

3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
 
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Peter1000

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There is nothing anywhere in scripture to justify the idea that our spirits were ever anywhere before we were born.
Did you take the time to read 2 Kings 6:14-17. This scripture identifies spirit horses and chariots that are unseen by normal human eyes.

So please explain this scripture to me if their is nothing in the scriptures to justify the idea that our spirits were ever anywhere before we were born.

Thank you.
 
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