How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

[mike buckman]

So you believe in Unconditional Election and you also believe in Limited Atonement. This is what it sounds like you are saying by your repy here, am I correct? Yes, or no?

I only know what God has revealed to me. I dont know of these things in a doctrinal controversy sense, nor did I know that there were names for each doctrine. I actually dont even believe that there is anything called "Calvanism" in reality. It is not an "ism."

I see that these discussions concerning these points are nothing more than misunderstandings of what is actually being said.

I cant add anything to what the scripture says, but I would say that these points are fully covered in First Ephesians and First John 3

 

[mike buckman]

Light has come into the world, but men did not come into the light because their deeds were evil.... This is the condemnation, that light has come into the world but men would not receive the light for fear that their deeds be exposed.

-Bottom line, they died in their sins. Christs Crucifixion was not something they took hold of.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Light has come into the world, but men did not come into the light because their deeds were evil.... This is the condemnation, that light has come into the world but men would not receive the light for fear that their deeds be exposed.

-Bottom line, they died in their sins. Christs Crucifixion was not something they took hold of.

Okay. It appears you believe in Unconditional Election according to Calvinism. But I just need to be sure. For it does appear you believe there is no free will involved when a person accepts Christ. Is this based upon no condition whatseover? Meaning, does God choose a person to be saved based on no condition whatsoever within the individual (whether it be in the present or the future)? Or does God just decide whoever He wants to be saved because He feels like it?

As for Limited Atonement:

Do you believe God saves only a few people when He has the power to save all people?
Does God choose to damn certain individuals based upon no conditions within the individual (Whether present or future)?

 

[TaylorSexton]

This whole thread is misguided. Jonathan Edwards, America's preeminent Reformed pastor and theologian, wrote a very long treatise in which he actually defends the freedom of the will, all by properly defining terms and carefully separating the various facets of the human constitution.

 

[mike buckman]

Okay. It appears you believe in Unconditional Election according to Calvinism. But I just need to be sure. For it does appear you believe there is no free will involved when a person accepts Christ. Is this based upon no condition whatseover? Meaning, does God choose a person to be saved based on no condition whatsoever within the individual (whether it be in the present or the future)? Or does God just decide whoever He wants to be saved because He feels like it?

As for Limited Atonement:

Do you believe God saves only a few people when He has the power to save all people?
Does God choose to damn certain individuals based upon no conditions within the individual (Whether present or future)?

You are missing certain elements in your question. You are committing yourself to a narrow view that inst based in reality in order to ask those questions, and ultimately to spring the "You have contradicted yourself" card. BTW there is no contradiction if free will and predestination are true simultaneously. Those two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive of one another.

Gods creation does not involve our personal merits after the fact. God created us for the praise of his glorious grace, before the creation of the world. We were, are and will continue to be such. No one accepts Christ on their own. No one. No one ever has, no one ever will. Every single thing about God is unknown to man until God reveals it. Faith is impossible for man unless God reveals himself first. The capacity for faith is impossible for anything unless God creates the capacity first, and breathes life into the being after. No one can choose anything without God revealing himself to the person, or to another human being along the way who will convey his message. In heaven, all things are To God (we sing praise to God), they are for God (we sing and worship for God), but they are also BY GOD (God is the author of the song and all beauty for that matter). In this way God is all in all.

The immediate question one should ask is: Is there anyone who chooses God by their own free will after hearing the message? No. It isnt a choice as much as it is belief, or acceptance of reality. "Making a decision for Christ" is a prideful lie. No truly saved person gives themselves even an ounce of credit when it comes to the gift of salvation. If there is a merit based system that the lord uses for salvation, it is based not on how good we are, but how bad. The reality is that we who believed were called in this life, and created for the praise of his Grace before the foundation of the world. The experiences we have as ignorant and imperfect humans now, bring us from darkness into the light, we are reborn, but this is a shadow of the reality. We have choices that we make, but ultimately everything serves, and plays into the hands of the Allmighty. The perfect one.

I did not choose salvation. Salvation chose me and I am thankful. I didn't deserve it, but it wasn't about what I deserved, it was about Gods love and mercy. I humbly gave thanks for his gift, but there was no choice in the matter when my entire being prior to that was desperately seeking some meaning to life, or some answer to why there was suffering... I did not choose God. I was dead in transgression and sin. I cursed God, that's what I did just before sobbing in shame, joy, sadness, peace. releif, glory, and anguish all at once.

God reveals himself. Man falls down.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are missing certain elements in your question. You are committing yourself to a narrow view that inst based in reality in order to ask those questions, and ultimately to spring the "You have contradicted yourself" card. BTW there is no contradiction if free will and predestination are true simultaneously. Those two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive of one another.

Gods creation does not involve our personal merits after the fact. God created us for the praise of his glorious grace, before the creation of the world. We were, are and will continue to be such. No one accepts Christ on their own. No one. No one ever has, no one ever will. Every single thing about God is unknown to man until God reveals it. Faith is impossible for man unless God reveals himself first. The capacity for faith is impossible for anything unless God creates the capacity first, and breathes life into the being after. No one can choose anything without God revealing himself to the person, or to another human being along the way who will convey his message. In heaven, all things are To God (we sing praise to God), they are for God (we sing and worship for God), but they are also BY GOD (God is the author of the song and all beauty for that matter). In this way God is all in all.

The immediate question one should ask is: Is there anyone who chooses God by their own free will after hearing the message? No. It isnt a choice as much as it is belief, or acceptance of reality. "Making a decision for Christ" is a prideful lie. No truly saved person gives themselves even an ounce of credit when it comes to the gift of salvation. If there is a merit based system that the lord uses for salvation, it is based not on how good we are, but how bad. The reality is that we who believed were called in this life, and created for the praise of his Grace before the foundation of the world. The experiences we have as ignorant and imperfect humans now, bring us from darkness into the light, we are reborn, but this is a shadow of the reality. We have choices that we make, but ultimately everything serves, and plays into the hands of the Allmighty. The perfect one.

I did not choose salvation. Salvation chose me and I am thankful. I didn't deserve it, but it wasn't about what I deserved, it was about Gods love and mercy. I humbly gave thanks for his gift, but there was no choice in the matter when my entire being prior to that was desperately seeking some meaning to life, or some answer to why there was suffering... I did not choose God. I was dead in transgression and sin. I cursed God, that's what I did just before sobbing in shame, joy, sadness, peace. releif, glory, and anguish all at once.

God reveals himself. Man falls down.

Again, does God elect (choose for salvation) based upon NO CONDITIONS within man or what man will do in the future (after they are regenerated)?
Can a person live in sin (and not repent of such sins) and still be saved?
For example: Can a Christian indulge in inappropriate content, lie, use bad language and not ask for God's forgiveness and die and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus as their Savior)?

Does God choose only a select few to be saved when He has the power to save them all?

If you don't know the answer to these questions, then simply say, "I don't know." If you know the answer to the questions above, then say, "Yes, or no." It's that simple. Answer my questions and I will be happy to address your posts that you have written so far. I say this because I desire to know what you actually believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This whole thread is misguided. Jonathan Edwards, America's preeminent Reformed pastor and theologian, wrote a very long treatise in which he actually defends the freedom of the will, all by properly defining terms and carefully separating the various facets of the human constitution.

Do you believe in Unconditional Election?
Do you believe in Limited Atonement?

Here is a defintiion of these beliefs from a website that believes in Tulip from Calvinism:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).​

Source:
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Story of Jonah is a testimony against Calvinism.
Nowhere do we see God unconditionally electing anyone for salvation in this story.
We see the exact opposite of that.
We see God telling Jonah to preach judgment or destruction is going to come to the city of Nineveh in a few days. But this averted not by some kind of unconditional election but it is averted by the Ninevites repenting. For when God seen that the Ninevites turned from their evil and wicked ways, that is when God decided to then turn away from bring wrath or judgment upon them.
If God unconditionall elected the Ninevites for salvation and wanted to use Jonah as a part of that process, then God would not have had Jonah give the Ninevites a lie that they were going to persh in several days. This is why Calvinism doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[SeventyOne]

... God would not have had Jonah give the Ninevites a lie that they were going to persh in several days.

You're calling God a liar then declaring someone else doesn't make sense?

And you are still stubbornly hanging onto national repentance being the same thing as individual salvation. You are one confused individual.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Do you believe in Unconditional Election?
Do you believe in Limited Atonement?

Here is a defintiion of these beliefs from a website that believes in Tulip from Calvinism:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Source:
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP

That had absolutely nothing to do with what I said about Edwards.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That had absolutely nothing to do with what I said about Edwards.

And your point has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, either.
We are talking about Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

 

[TaylorSexton]

And your point has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, either.
We are talking about Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

I was addressing a recent development in the thread regarding free will, in which you yourself were involved. If your thread went off topic, perhaps you should not have participated. Otherwise, it seems to me you are being unfair when you demand such from me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was addressing a recent development in the thread regarding free will, in which you yourself were involved. If your thread went off topic, perhaps you should not have participated. Otherwise, it seems to me you are being unfair when you demand such from me.

I believe it is okay to go off topic on occasion, but it appears most here are not trying to stay on topic (for obvious reasons). There were several posts made by me for a call to get back on topic already.

I was merely trying to get you to confirm your beliefs before responding further (so there is no room for misunderstanding). But various Calvinists I have run into do not really like admitting their beliefs to me for some reason. So far I have ran into four posters here who gave me a hard time in admitting in what they believe. That to me tells me a lot about what they believe is not true. For Jesus essentially says we do not hide a light under a bed, etc. But we put that light in a place for all to see.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're calling God a liar then declaring someone else doesn't make sense?

I don't believe God behaves like He does in Calvinism. So I am not calling God a liar.
If God unconditionally elects some for salvation, then that means God is also unconditionally electing some for damnation. If this is true, then that means God wants certain men to not be saved when He has the power to save them. According to Calvinism, this is God's sovereign will. It is God's choice to not save some, which is based upon no real condition within the individual itself. Hence, why it is called: "Unconditional Election." If this is true, then God is desiring certain men to sin as a part of His will. This would mean it is God's will for people to sin. For God is the One who is making men to ultimately be saved or to ultimately be unsaved. When we say they are unsaved, they are going to remain in their sin. If God chooses them to remain in their sin (When He could have prevented it as a part of His normal salvation process), then God would be in agreement with them sinning. But God cannot agree with men sinning because God is loving, good, just, and holy. Yet, on the other hand, if you believe Scripture that talks about free will in many places in regards to a person accepting or rejecting the Lord, then the blame of sin is not on God but it is on man or the individual.

And you are still stubbornly hanging onto national repentance being the same thing as individual salvation. You are one confused individual.

I do not see the difference between national repentance and individual repentance. For nations are made up of individuals. You are not really offering me any solution or explanation as to the difference between individual repentance and national repentance in how they are different, too. I mean, if Calvinism was true, then we sould expect to see national repentance look like individual repentance because nations are made up of individuals. So when we have an example of many people repenting that supports free will repentance, this somehow just gets conveniently written off. No explanation is needed. National repentance is different than individual repentance. But how are they different? Why would God confuse us into thinking He wants us to believe in free will repentance like this? This is why I do not believe God behaves in the way you describe Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're calling God a liar then declaring someone else doesn't make sense?

And you are still stubbornly hanging onto national repentance being the same thing as individual salvation. You are one confused individual.

Also, Jesus relates the repentance of the Ninevites with the lack of repentance in "this generation" in Matthew 12:41. Jesus give the credit of repentance to the Ninevites. For Jesus says that the men of Nineveh (plural) (many individuals) will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah.

"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; ..." (Matthew 12:41).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are missing certain elements in your question. You are committing yourself to a narrow view that inst based in reality in order to ask those questions, and ultimately to spring the "You have contradicted yourself" card. BTW there is no contradiction if free will and predestination are true simultaneously. Those two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive of one another.

Gods creation does not involve our personal merits after the fact. God created us for the praise of his glorious grace, before the creation of the world. We were, are and will continue to be such. No one accepts Christ on their own. No one. No one ever has, no one ever will. Every single thing about God is unknown to man until God reveals it. Faith is impossible for man unless God reveals himself first. The capacity for faith is impossible for anything unless God creates the capacity first, and breathes life into the being after. No one can choose anything without God revealing himself to the person, or to another human being along the way who will convey his message. In heaven, all things are To God (we sing praise to God), they are for God (we sing and worship for God), but they are also BY GOD (God is the author of the song and all beauty for that matter). In this way God is all in all.

The immediate question one should ask is: Is there anyone who chooses God by their own free will after hearing the message? No. It isnt a choice as much as it is belief, or acceptance of reality. "Making a decision for Christ" is a prideful lie. No truly saved person gives themselves even an ounce of credit when it comes to the gift of salvation. If there is a merit based system that the lord uses for salvation, it is based not on how good we are, but how bad. The reality is that we who believed were called in this life, and created for the praise of his Grace before the foundation of the world. The experiences we have as ignorant and imperfect humans now, bring us from darkness into the light, we are reborn, but this is a shadow of the reality. We have choices that we make, but ultimately everything serves, and plays into the hands of the Allmighty. The perfect one.

I did not choose salvation. Salvation chose me and I am thankful. I didn't deserve it, but it wasn't about what I deserved, it was about Gods love and mercy. I humbly gave thanks for his gift, but there was no choice in the matter when my entire being prior to that was desperately seeking some meaning to life, or some answer to why there was suffering... I did not choose God. I was dead in transgression and sin. I cursed God, that's what I did just before sobbing in shame, joy, sadness, peace. releif, glory, and anguish all at once.

God reveals himself. Man falls down.

Does God choose men to not be saved, too?

 

[miknik5]

Mike,

What are your thoughts on these following verses?

Do you consider them to be true?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 10:13 And whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

 

[Hammster]

If God unconditionally elected the Ninevites for salvation and wanted to use Jonah as a part of that process, then God would not have had Jonah give the Ninevites a lie that they were going to persh in several days. This is why Calvinism doesn't make a lick of sense.

Again, not true. If they hadn't repented, they would have perished. God doesn't lie.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, not true. If they hadn't repented, they would have perished. God doesn't lie.

But you believe repentance is something God makes them do. So the idea of God threatening to destroy them in a few days is non-sensical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For example: This would be like a Dad threatening his son with a beating if he does not clean his room and yet the Dad was planning to brainwash his son to clean his room all along. So the idea of threatening his son would be pointless. For the father's plan to brainwash his son to clean his room would have been the only necessary solution to fix his son. Threatening him would be useless if his plan was to brainwash him.