More Red Meat - Transgender Individuals Can't Enter Military Service

[lasthero]

*sigh* The only thing it tells me is that Trump is saying "No" in order to be mean. I'm sorry but I must maintain my disagreement as outlined above.

You're disagreement is not based on any facts. You blame the surgery for the mental health issues that such individuals go through, while handwaving the very real abuse they deal with every day.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

 

[friend of]

You want to dismiss statistics? Because I have more.

You know what they say about statistics.

You're disagreement is not based on any facts. You blame the surgery for the mental health issues that such individuals go through, while handwaving the very real abuse they deal with every day.

Your brother has my sympathies.

 

[lasthero]

Your brother has my sympathies. Mental health issues are not the sole domain of LGBT, though.

I feel I can safely speak for my brother and say he doesn't want your sympathies.

You know what they say about statistics.

That some people will ignore them when they don't fit their preconceived notions?

That's what I say, anyway. I don't know about 'they'.

 

[lasthero]

*sigh* The only thing it tells me is that Trump is saying "No" in order to be mean. I'm sorry but I must maintain my disagreement as outlined above.

For the record, I don't think he's doing it to be mean - I don't think Trump really cares about transgender individuals one way or the other. But he knows this is the sort of thing that plays to his base, and it costs him relatively little - the people this effects and the sort of people who are against the ban probably didn't and weren't going to vote for him, anyway.

It's a political move. A painfully transparent one.

 

[variant]

Gender comprises a lifestyle. If you hadn’t noticed already, it’s a big deal. Remember that defensive saying, “it’s my lifestyle choice”? This was a popular saying that members of LGBT would reference when the subject of their proclivities came up because they felt a need to defend the workings of their entire life.

Transitioning into a member of the opposite sex will radically alter an entire lifestyle. There is no question. There exist proven trends in longitudinal analyses of sex-transitioning patients that mental health deterioration including self-harm and suicide is positively correlated with these cases, including a whole battery of mental health issues fixated around LGBT. To ignore these facts is to ignore hard psychiatric data.

This issue should not be dismissed as though the discussion pertained to that of a minor ancillary characteristic like a personality quark when undergoing the process will, inevitably, displace the foundations of an applicant’s psychological makeup at the very least.

Again, you're confident in dismissing an entire class of people as so mentally unstable as to not even be considered for service.

You would have to defend such an idea with real expertise not armchair "proven trends" manure as you've done here.

 

[Go Braves]

@Go Braves

If the enlisted is not emotionally/mentally stable enough to reconcile their own anatomy with their gender, why would you expect —less, rely on— such a person to obtain the mental/emotional hardiness required for guerrilla combat?

Well the transgender folks who are enlisted have been mentally stable enough to do the job well. Have you ever been a Navy SEAL? We know that Trump, of course, wasn't one, on account of how he dodged the draft with flimsy excuses. Kristin Beck, who is transgendered, enlisted on her own free will & was one. She was awarded a Purple Heart & a Bronze Star.

Obviously, this general, a fellow who has actual experience with this, sees things differently than you.
Defiant Coast Guard four-star vows to keep transgender service members

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If they've bucked normative tradition to the point where they pay thousands for surgery to radically alter their lifestyle, why would they suddenly feel so susceptible to bullying comments (likely a random from the internet) to the point where they would betray their lifelong intentions of transitioning and off themselves? Doesn't make sense.

That's a theory that some have espoused, however, the same thing exists within the gay community and they're not transition or paying for any expensive surgeries or hormone therapies.

This map (showing the suicide attempt rate among LGBT persons by region) shows that how people are treated plays a huge factor in these attempts at self-harm.

If it were merely a case of "The LGBT person is trying to commit suicide because being LGBT is indicative of a mental instability", then we shouldn't see a large disparity by region. These numbers should be consistent across the country.

However, given that an LGBT person living in Alabama (where they're typically treated very poorly) is two times more likely to attempt suicide than their counterpart in Vermont (where they're treated a little better) demonstrates that how people are treated is the major contributing factor to the suicide attempts.

It should also be noted that in countries in Asia where "trans" has been somewhat normalized for quite some time now, their suicide rate is essentially the same as a non-trans person.


The psychology behind it is fairly commonplace and simple...if someone is treated poorly (for whatever reason), they're more likely to be depressed. If a person is depressed, they have more of a need for a support system (friends, family, etc...), when people are depressed and lack a support system (no friends, family doesn't offer much help or doesn't want to associate with them) are much more likely to commit suicide or attempt self-harm.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

...it should be pointed out that the high suicide rate is largely due to peoples' treatment of them, not the gender dysphoria itself.

From a military standpoint, that's irrelevant anyway. A documented history of suicidal behavior is generally a bar to enlistment. Inability to handle the stress of civilian life suggests an even higher propensity to commit suicide in the armed forces. For that reason, a psychological condition associated with high suicide rates would also be a bar to enlistment, whatever the reason.

IE: a person gets treated like garbage for being transgender, and when it finally eats away at them and they do something drastic like self-harm, then those same people treating them like garbage try to use that self-harm as evidence of "why transgender people are mentally unstable".

Refuse to humor someone else's delusions does not constitute treating them like garbage. Nor is it necessary to examine society at large to explain higher suicide rates in this case. It is simply a matter of external reality not conforming to personal expectations. That does often produced emotion reactions that we might call temper tantrums, and suicide is the ultimate example of such a temper tantrum. It is an act of "taking my ball and going home" - permanently.

Well the transgender folks who are enlisted have been mentally stable enough to do the job well. Have you ever been a Navy SEAL? We know that Trump, of course, wasn't one, on account of how he dodged the draft with flimsy excuses. Kristin Beck, who is transgendered, enlisted on her own free will & was one. She was awarded a Purple Heart & a Bronze Star.

Nobody by that name ever served with the SEALs. There was a Christopher Beck, who served as a man. What Beck did after getting out of the Navy is beside the point.

That's a theory that some have espoused, however, the same thing exists within the gay community and they're not transition or paying for any expensive surgeries or hormone therapies.

This map (showing the suicide attempt rate among LGBT persons by region) shows that how people are treated plays a huge factor in these attempts at self-harm.

If it were merely a case of "The LGBT person is trying to commit suicide because being LGBT is indicative of a mental instability", then we shouldn't see a large disparity by region. These numbers should be consistent across the country.

That doesn't follow at all. Some psychological defects pose greater problems in some societies than others. It's also worth pointing out that
1) A 19% suicide attempt rate is still quite high.
2) The thread is not about LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ, put specifically about transexuals, and without specific suicide rates for them the figures don't mean much
3) The assumption that a higher suicide rate in some societies among persons with a particular condition implies a flaw with the society rather than a flaw with those persons is unwarranted. The premise that it is the duty of rest of society to accommodate it mental defectives rather than the other way around is a dubious one.

It should also be noted that in countries in Asia where "trans" has been somewhat normalized for quite some time now, their suicide rate is essentially the same as a non-trans person.

It's not "trans" in the modern Western sense. Indeed, in many southeast Asian countries "ladyboys", or transvestite prostitutes, are quite numerous, but this is a cultural phenomenon particular to those countries. To compare it to the "trans" phenomenon today is disingenuous.

 

[Belk]

Here is the problem.


Gender comprises a lifestyle. If you hadn’t noticed already, it’s a big deal.

I live a male lifestyle now do I? You are correct, I have not noticed it being a big deal.

Remember that defensive saying, “it’s my lifestyle choice”? This was a popular saying that members of LGBT would reference when the subject of their proclivities came up because they felt a need to defend the workings of their entire life.

No. I remember no such saying and fail to see how it would be relevant if I did.

Transitioning into a member of the opposite sex will radically alter an entire lifestyle. There is no question. There exist proven trends in longitudinal analyses of sex-transitioning patients that mental health deterioration including self-harm and suicide is positively correlated with these cases, including a whole battery of mental health issues fixated around LGBT. To ignore these facts is to ignore hard psychiatric data.

Very well, link me to this data. A quick Google search turns up nothing. Then I need to know why you feel this data shows LGBT individuals are not fit to serve.

This issue should not be dismissed as though the discussion pertained to that of a minor ancillary characteristic like a personality quark when undergoing the process will, inevitably, displace the foundations of an applicant’s psychological makeup at the very least.

What process and where do you find support for your idea that it can "displace the foundations" of someones psychological makeup? What is that even supposed to mean?

 

[lasthero]

The thread is not about LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ, put specifically about transexuals,

Pressed for time, but I wanted to address this for a moment: this is incorrect.

This thread is about transgendered, not transsexuals, and that's an important distinction. In brief, a transgendered individual is just someone who identifies as a different gender - the majority of such individuals do not and have not had any desire for surgery.

A transsexual is someone who does have that desire, whether successful or not.

So, as I understand the term, all transsexuals are transgendered, but not all transgendered are transsexuals. In fact, such surgeries are relatively rare among transgendered.

Trump's ban, however, applies to all transgendered. I also think it's worth pointing out that, even though most of Trump's defenders in this case are citing mental health issues as support, I don't recall Trump himself ever doing so. For him, it seems to be more an issue of the money for surgery costing the military, despite the fact that most transgendered individuals don't have or want the surgery and that it would be a simpler matter to just instruct the military to not pay for it in the first place.

And, again, it's worth pointing out that there are currently transgendered individuals serving capably, and to the best of my knowledge, there have been no complaints about their capability. Questioning whether transgendered individuals have the mental capacity to serve seems a bit odd when there are already some of them doing just that without any problems.

 

[KCfromNC]

This isn't a surprise.

Yep. It is almost as if there's an investigation into his administration that the President wants to distract people from.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That doesn't follow at all. Some psychological defects pose greater problems in some societies than others.

...okay, so just off the cuff, explain to us some examples of some other societal factors that would cause a doubled suicide rate among that community in Alabama vs. their counterparts in the northeast. If it's not the abysmal treatment by the right-right fundamentalists types, what other societal factors are there? Are you suggesting it's the hot weather???

In terms of "posing problems to society", this would be toward the bottom of the list in all honesty...it's not like we're talking about a schizophrenic person who's hearing voices in their head sparking violent behavior...worst case scenario, a person who was born one way wants to dress and act as the other gender...not exactly a national security risk there.

1) A 19% suicide attempt rate is still quite high.

Yes, 19% is still high, but notice I said "treated better", not "treated well", the fact is that members of those communities are still looked down upon and treated poorly in that region...just not as bad as they're treated in the deep south.

2) The thread is not about LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ, put specifically about transexuals, and without specific suicide rates for them the figures don't mean much

The figures do still have meaning, because the context of my post was explaining that people who are subject to extremely poor treatment by their peers, and who lack a support system, are more likely to be at risk of self-harm. L, G, B, & T folks all fit that description in that region.

3) The assumption that a higher suicide rate in some societies among persons with a particular condition implies a flaw with the society rather than a flaw with those persons is unwarranted. The premise that it is the duty of rest of society to accommodate it mental defectives rather than the other way around is a dubious one.

It is a flaw with society...because "lack of accommodation" isn't the reason for the high suicide rate.

The constant "what you're doing is an abomination and disgusts God, and if you don't change you're going to burn in hell" talk is what's driving that. Which, by your own words and classification, it's a "mental defect" (I don't subscribe to that notion, but you do, so we'll address it from that angle)...so if it is a "mental defect", then that makes the actions of society even worse. You wouldn't take a kid who's mentally handicapped, try to force them to take the regular math class with the rest of the kids, and then scold him when he doesn't ace the test and tell him that God's disappointed with him for not trying harder, would you? ...do you also oppose special ed classes because it's society "accommodating a mental defect"?

Like I said, I don't personally view it as a mental defect, but that does seem to be the cop-out that many use for justifying their poor treatment...however, it's a counter-intuitive rationalization for the poor treatment because if it were a mental defect, that would make the mistreatment even more unethical, not less.

 

[friend of]

Again, you're confident in dismissing an entire class of people as so mentally unstable as to not even be considered for service.

I'm going on the law of averages. I did not say every single LGTB person is incapable of serving. Not once.

Kristin Beck, who is transgendered, enlisted on her own free will & was one. She was awarded a Purple Heart & a Bronze Star.

Kristin Beck is kinda the exception to the rule though. Name another female SEAL please.

That some people will ignore them when they don't fit their preconceived notions?

Frivolous college-grad level social study surveys premised upon asking people about their feelings while barely hitting 4 integers worth of sampling pool are unscientific. Surprise.

I feel I can safely speak for my brother and say he doesn't want your sympathies.

My apologies. Mental health issues are dear to my heart and I meant no offense.

This thread is about transgendered, not transsexuals, and that's an important distinction.

This thread is about the Transgendered* who are eager to graduate to Transexual* because when a transgendered person undergoes elective surgery they get that label. The distinction here is kinda moot.

If it's not the abysmal treatment by the right-right fundamentalists types, what other societal factors are there? Are you suggesting it's the hot weather???

More like a disruption of the natural production of hormones and neurotransmitters brought on by cocktails of hormone therapy which can and do disrupt the natural cycles of individual patients creating imbalances similar to those which are found in cases of clinical depression when the body can't regulate these endogenous productions in a healthy way. Why is everyone ignoring science? This is the causality right here.

 

[lasthero]

Frivolous college-grad level social study surveys premised upon asking people about their feelings while barely hitting 4 integers worth of sampling pool are unscientific. Surprise.

None of the studies I cited were what you just described. Handwaving noted.

This thread is about the Transgendered* who are eager to graduate to Transexual* because when a transgendered person undergoes elective surgery they get that label. The distinction here is kinda moot.

Not all transgendered are eager to have that surgery. Not even most.

The distinction is important.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

More like a disruption of the natural production of hormones and neurotransmitters brought on by cocktails of hormone therapy which can and do disrupt the natural cycles of individual patients creating imbalances similar to those which are found in cases of clinical depression when the body can't regulate these endogenous productions in a healthy way. Why is everyone ignoring science? This is the causality right here.

That wasn't my question...my question was: If it's the result of the condition itself, when why is there such a large disparity based on region. If it's simply a matter of the Gender Dysphoria itself causing the self-harm attempts, then it should be consistent across the board and not be 35% in Alabama and only 18% in Vermont (per the chart I posted before).

So, in your theories, if it's not the poor treatment of the individuals that's contributing to the high rate, and it's not the condition itself (if it were, then you wouldn't have a disparity based on region, the rates would be consistent), what is it about the deep south that would cause more trans people to attempt suicide than in Vermont or New York? That's why I facetiously said "what is it then, the hot weather???"

 

[variant]

I'm going on the law of averages. I did not say every single LGTB person is incapable of serving. Not once.

The T individuals are being discussed as a group here.

If your argument does not support a blanket ban based upon it's merits then you are arguing something other than the discussion.

The President of the United States has implemented a blanket banned ALL trans individuals for recruiting for all possible military service.

It is a divisive and irrational thing to do, so you can either support or criticize it but no one is talking about clearing all trans individuals for guerrilla combat, that would be a straw man argument.

 

[lasthero]

On a side note, how much 'guerrilla combat' is the United States engaging in?

 

[friend of]

If your argument does not support a blanket ban based upon it's merits then you are arguing something other than the discussion

My argument as it stands does support the blanket ban though. I just had to clarify that, nowhere in this thread have I argued that every single trans person has mental illness and is incapable of carrying out a role within the military.

 

[Go Braves]

Kristin Beck is kinda the exception to the rule though. Name another female SEAL please.

There's other transgender folks who've served in highly specialized & important roles in the military that served our country, besides Kristin Beck. I already posted an article from a military news site about how the Coast Guard is standing by the transgender folks who've served so well.


Have you ever served in the military?

 

[Go Braves]

Nobody by that name ever served with the SEALs. There was a Christopher Beck, who served as a man. What Beck did after getting out of the Navy is beside the point.

No, it's the entire point. This person was able to serve the United States in an extremely demanding, extremely important role.