Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?

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I believe the Story of Lazarus and the Richman is a true story because all of the parables are based on true things or true events that have no doubt probably already happened or would happen. They are stories that can happen. They are stories of truth. Parables are not fables or fiction. If Christ did not tell us true stories, then Jesus would be telling us lies and I do not believe Jesus would ever do that. If Jesus wanted to make clear that his parables were merely fictional to illustrate spiritual truth, He would have clearly said that; But He didn't.

I take the Story of Lazarus and the Richman (Being a real narrative) as having TWO possibilities.

#1. The Richman was not in the actual flames but he was tormented (made uncomfortable) by the HEAT of the flame either nearby him somewhere or within the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham.

#2. The Richman was in the flame but it was not the same kind of flame that is like our fire so as to cause his flesh to sizzle and for him to scream uncontrollably whereby a conversation would be impossible. It was a flame whereby the pain threshold was not that bad enough to make him scream like any real flame. Today we see books, movies, and videos of the wicked roasting in real flames and people screaming in horrible pain within hell. But we see nothing like this in the Bible. We should stick to the facts of what we know in the Bible and not go beyond what it says. Fine. Hollywood and churches could show the wicked in flames. But they should not show them like they are screaming or anything because the Richman never screamed from the pain of his own flame. In addition to that, the Bible never describes the Richman's flesh sizzling like a steak, either. Again, books, movies, and videos are very creative and or over active in their imaginations of what they think the Bible says (But it really does not say).​

But what about the Richman being down in hell for thousands of years? Was he being tormented for that long? Does that sound fair? Again, we have to go back to the truth of the verse that God is into fair judgment. It is written...

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48).​

So if we grab hold of the truth of this verse and believe it... I mean .... we really believe this verse, then we have to conclude that God cannot punish them beyond the crimes they committed in their life. For this verse says that God punishes a person more if they know about what to do and they don't it vs. the guy who did not know.

So was the Richman being tormented consciously by the heat of the flames in hell (or some kind of non-painful flames in hell) for thousands of years? No. Not if we believe Luke 12:48. So how do we explain this? Well, I used to think that time operated differently in hell but this theory is never mentioned in the Bible so I dropped it. Others have said that the Richman's account is shortly before the Judgment whereby he will be cast into the Lake of Fire. While I would like for this theory to be true, it does not work because Abraham said to the Richman that his brothers have Moses and the prophets to hear still. This suggests that the Richman's brothers were still alive while he (the richman) was dead and in hell. So what is a possible solution to this? Well, I believe one possibility or theory that has some Biblical merit to it is that the wicked will go through periods of unconciousness for long periods of time and then be awakened for special reasons (like when Jesus came to preach to the wicked spirits who died in the global flood during the time when his body was in the grave for three days and three nights). For there are many verses that suggest that death is like sleep. In fact, Jesus calls death as sleep. So if the metaphor has value and or truth to it, then we can assume that such an analogy is true. Yet, we also see accounts in the Bible where we see souls awake and doing things after death, too (like the souls of the saints who were beheaded for Christ crying out under God's alter). So both men sleeping after death and men being awake after death are true. One has to look at the whole of God's Word and believe all of it to get a more accurate picture of what is going on. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. We look through a mirror darkly after all. But based on following what the BIble says about these things, it is the most logical theory of what happens after death that I could come up with after much prayer, and constant Scripture seeking. May the Lord guide you to find peace in regards to this topic (Like He has given me peace with it).


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Now, do I believe the wicked could potentially suffer in the flames of the Lake of Fire (after the Judgement) for a set amount of time that would be considered fair punishment of their sin before they are destroyed both body and soul? Yes. I believe this is possible. How so?

Mark 9:42 talks about how it is better for a person to be cast at sea with a millstone around the neck if they make a child to stumble into sin. In other words, the agony of God's final punishment sounds like it will be worse than drowning at sea.

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LittleLambofJesus

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................

Purple clothing and fine linen must symbolize royalty and priestly righteousness and thus can only represent the Rich Man's Jewishness.

Why can't the purple and fine linen be a symbol of wealth, too? We're talking about a Rich Man, right? Why wouldn't a rich man be wearing such clothing? Why must it be that the Rich Man's clothing can only represent his membership in the Jewish nation, the Chosen People of God? It seems to me that there is no good reason why his clothing could not be symbolic of his wealth and his pride and independence from God and/or his Jewish heritage, too...................
Now that you mention "purple and fine linen", coincidentally those 2 words are used together in only 3 places in the NT....Luke 16:19 and 2 times in Revelation 18.
The rest of the times they are used only in the OT.
Wow! I never noticed that before.......


Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"purple" AND "fine" AND "linen"occurs in 34 verses in the NKJV.

Luk 16:19
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-jerusalem-is-mystically-called-sodom-and-egypt.7570002/

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Revelation 18:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event,...........................

After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations................................

Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

Reve 18:16
and cry out: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great City, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
 
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claninja

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Parables are meant to teach the simple people, simple ideas in clear concepts they can relate to. They take earthly relationships and relate them to heavenly ideas. These will never be exact or perfect descriptors of a heavenly concept. Regardless if the text is a story or parable, the message is SIMPLE.

In general I think you are correct about parables, but didn't jesus use them to so that the Jews couldn't understand?

Matthew 13:13-14 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
 
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claninja

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If you are going to half quote scripture to make an argument, don't do it so half baked. A full quote and reading of scripture teaches that the reason the Pharisees rejected God was not because they did not understand scripture or the words that Jesus taught because the concepts were too complicated for them.

How ironic, the "smart" theologians of Jesus' day missed the simple message Jesus had, but the simple people of the day understood it. Sometimes this still applies today. The reason why they did not understand Jesus' parables is because their hearts were hardened, not because the message was too complicated for them.

Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’​
But didn't even the disciples not always know what jesus was talking about?

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”

Luke 8:9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant,

Mark 6:52 for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8:15-16 And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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In general I think you are correct about parables, but didn't jesus use them to so that the Jews couldn't understand?

Matthew 13:13-14 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
That is an excellent point.........

Psa 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old,

Eze 20:49
Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! They say of me, ‘Does he not speak parables?' ”


Eze 24:3
“And utter a parable to the rebellious house, and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“Put on a pot, set it on, And also pour water into it.


Ezekiel 17:
1 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 “Son of Adam, propound a riddle and speak a parable to the house of Israel,


Mat 13:35
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“I will open My mouth in parables;I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”[Psalm 78:2]


Mar 4:
11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.


We have to look at the audience Jesus was addressing.
I am assuming it was an all Jewish audience?


Luk 15:
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”


Luke 18:
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.


Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
*SNIP*....................
Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored.
At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him. Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees.
The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke. There are five stories which follow consecutively.................................


Luke 16:14
The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all of this and were scoffing at Jesus.
Matt 23:33
"Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"
Revelation
14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.
 
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Here is the thing. Besides the "Story of the Richman and Lazarus" (which is not called a "parable") which parables of Jesus could not actually happen in real life?

See, every Parable (or real world example) of Jesus could actually happen in the real world. These parables or real world examples illustrated or paralleled a spiritual truth of some kind. The spiritual truths could not be understood if the physical real world example or story could not actually happen. For we would have no frame of reference to draw from.

However, just because the "Story of the Richman and Lazarus" is a true story does not mean it is teaching torture in real flames like the world's version of fire and it does not mean it is teaching Eternal Conscious Torment.


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claninja

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You're reading far more into than what is there in the lesson of being good stewards with the things of God. The chapter begins with Christ teaching His disciples this lesson and when the Pharisees come and ridicule this teaching on good stewards Jesus tells them the fate of the bad steward. Very simple, nothing more extravagant than that.


If Lazarus did not really exist, then what sense does it make to use a specific name? None. As far as I am concerned, Jesus would be lying or telling a fairy tale if Lazarus did not really exist. I know of no parable Jesus taught were actual names were used.
Yet in the end, it does not matter to me if it really happened or just was a parable for the fact remains it teaches eternal torment. Generally those that reject the bible's teaching on eternal torment want it to be a parable thinking they can get rid of all that is said about eternal torment in the text. Therefore their theological BIAS makes them want it to be a parable rather than real for it being real refutes their bias.

Were the Pharisees and king Herod really making literal bread that the disciples should avoid phsycially eating?

Mark 8:14-21
The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat.
15“Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
16They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”
17Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? 19When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?” “Twelve,” they replied. 20“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?” They answered, “Seven.”
21He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”
 
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claninja

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Christ would not teach falsehoods about eternal punishment. Even if it could be proven this is a parable, a parable is "confined to that which is real. Its imagery always embodies a narrative which is true to the facts and experiences of human life” (Terry, M. S. 1890. Hermeneutics. New York, NY: Eaton & Mains.) Are the Dead Conscious?

Christ shows there is a continued existence of both good and bad, consciousness of both, a permanent fixed gulf with no end and no crossing over.

Parables can be true, but can also be fictitious.

3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught. This casts additional light by using an arresting or familiar analogy, (which is often fictitious or metaphorical, but not necessarily).
 
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TheSeabass

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Were the Pharisees and king Herod really making literal bread that the disciples should avoid phsycially eating?

Mark 8:14-21
The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat.
15“Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
16They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”
17Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? 19When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?” “Twelve,” they replied. 20“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?” They answered, “Seven.”
21He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”

Jesus was using a figure of speech, just as He was when He called Herod a "fox". But a parable (if Luke 16:19ff even is a parable for it has not been proven it is) is NOT like that metaphor.

A parable:

--confined to that which is real. Its imagery always embodies a narrative which is true to the facts and experiences of human life” ...Terry, M. S. 1890. Hermeneutics. New York, NY: Eaton & Mains.

--the events must be possible, or likely to have happened ...Bullinger, E. W. 1968. Figures of Speech Used in the Bible. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.

--The actors in a parable are real—human beings are the actors, and they do nothing which they could not do”...Dungan, D. R. n.d. Hermeneutics. Cincinnati, OH: Standard.

So a parable is not like a fairy tale for it encompasses true facts, true events from everyday life. If you view Luke 16:1-13 as a parable, then the people, places and events in that parable can actually exist and happen in real life, not just a fairy tale of some thing that cannot possible exist or happen. Likewise the people, places and event in verses 19-31 can actually exist and happen in reality else it is just a fairy tale.
 
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TheSeabass

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Parables can be true, but can also be fictitious.

3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught. This casts additional light by using an arresting or familiar analogy, (which is often fictitious or metaphorical, but not necessarily).

A parable may used fictitiuos people, places and events, but what happens in the parable can actually happen in real life.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Anguspure

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It either teaches eternal torment or Christ was speaking in fairy tale language, i.e., He was lying. What Christ says about the rich man fits perfectly with all the other verses in the NT that teach eternal torment, unquenchable fire, etc.
Yes the fire is unquenchable. Where does it say that what is thrown in the unquenchable fire is indestructible? In fact it does not, anywhere.

God has said that the wages of sin is death, eternal death.

It is Plato that gives us ideas of eternal indestructible spirits.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes the fire is unquenchable. Where does it say that what is thrown in the unquenchable fire is indestructible? In fact it does not, anywhere.
Jesus was using "eternal" for some reason. What difference would it make to people who wound up in the fire if it was unquenchable or not? If someone is burned to death, what difference would it make how long the fire burns after they are dead?
God has said that the wages of sin is death, eternal death.
No, He didn't! Scrpture says "the wages of sin is death." It does not say "eternal death."
It is Plato that gives us ideas of eternal indestructible spirits.
Wrong! According the the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia and the Talmud among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal punishment and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. See my post #57 this thread for sources and discussion.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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what difference would it make how long the fire burns after they are dead?

I'm much more worried about their worm that never dies (Mark 9:48). Apparently, long after the guilty party is gone, some innocent worm will suffer the unquenchable fires of Hell forever.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes the fire is unquenchable. Where does it say that what is thrown in the unquenchable fire is indestructible? In fact it does not, anywhere.

God has said that the wages of sin is death, eternal death.
It is Plato that gives us ideas of eternal indestructible spirits.
I'm much more worried about their worm that never dies (Mark 9:48). Apparently, long after the guilty party is gone, some innocent worm will suffer the unquenchable fires of Hell forever.
That would make for an interesting topic in itself.
Very few Bible versions use "gehenna" in their translation. One that does is YLT, a favorite of mine:


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
"gehenna"occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the YLT.
See results from these other Bibles:
1 result in the VUL James 3:3

Mat 10:28
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

John 2:
14 and He found in the temple those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
15 and having made a whip of small cords, He put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen;.....................

[Nahum 3:2["sound of whip"/Reve 18:11-13]

Reve 18:
8 Yet this, in one day, shall be arriving the stripes of Her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned/katakauqhsetai <2618> (5701),
that strong Lord the God, the one judging Her.
11 'And the merchants of the land shall weep and sorrow over Her, because their lading no one doth buy any more;
13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.


Gehenna - Lake of Everlasting Fire...Just Outside Jerusalem - Christianity Original

3) Where exactly is Gehenna?
The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. During Jesus’ time, it was the city’s garbage burner.

Gehenna Valley – The Curious Case of the Undying Worms
7)
Jesus says in Gehennathe worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched(Mark 9:47-48 NIV). Many assume that it must be only in a mystic hell that worms don’t die even in fire. Isn’t that the case?
upload_2017-8-18_17-10-47.gif
Only those who know Jesus’ first century Gehenna Valley will know the true meaning of this phrase.
No torture. Only complete destruction. Jesus used the same Gehenna in his Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:22). The Gehenna Valley was not far from where Jesus uttered these words.

  • Even today, we know that fire is kept continually burning in city waste burners. In the same fashion, fires were kept burning (not quenched) in the Gehenna Valley of that time.
  • But, why did the worms not die? Because these worms were not exactly amidst the fires. Fires used to burn at the bottom of the Gehenna Valley. It was in the vegetation that lined the slopes of the valley that the worms thrived. Jesus was referring to those worms.
8) What does Jesus signify with all these in terms of the Gehenna Valley?
Dead bodies thrown into Gehenna Valley would be destroyed by the fires burning below. The ones that might get stuck in the slopes would be consumed by worms
 
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Der Alte

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That would make for an interesting topic in itself.
Very few Bible versions use "gehenna" in their translation. One that does is YLT, a favorite of mine:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
"gehenna"occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the YLT.
See results from these other Bibles:

1 result in the VUL James 3:3
Mat 10:28
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
John 2:
14 and He found in the temple those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
15 and having made a whip of small cords, He put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen;.....................

[Nahum 3:2["sound of whip"/Reve 18:11-13]
Reve 18:

8 Yet this, in one day, shall be arriving the stripes of Her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned/katakauqhsetai <2618> (5701),
that strong Lord the God, the one judging Her.
11 'And the merchants of the land shall weep and sorrow over Her, because their lading no one doth buy any more;

13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.
Gehenna - Lake of Everlasting Fire...Just Outside Jerusalem - Christianity Original
3) Where exactly is Gehenna?
The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. During Jesus’ time, it was the city’s garbage burner.

Gehenna Valley – The Curious Case of the Undying Worms
7) Jesus says in Gehennathe worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched(Mark 9:47-48 NIV). Many assume that it must be only in a mystic hell that worms don’t die even in fire. Isn’t that the case?
Only those who know Jesus’ first century Gehenna Valley will know the true meaning of this phrase.
No torture. Only complete destruction. Jesus used the same Gehenna in his Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:22). The Gehenna Valley was not far from where Jesus uttered these words.
Even today, we know that fire is kept continually burning in city waste burners. In the same fashion, fires were kept burning (not quenched) in the Gehenna Valley of that time.

  • But, why did the worms not die? Because these worms were not exactly amidst the fires. Fires used to burn at the bottom of the Gehenna Valley. It was in the vegetation that lined the slopes of the valley that the worms thrived. Jesus was referring to those worms.
8) What does Jesus signify with all these in terms of the Gehenna Valley?
Dead bodies thrown into Gehenna Valley would be destroyed by the fires burning below. The ones that might get stuck in the slopes would be consumed by worms
Nonsense. That is an internet rumor that has been circulating for a long time but it has no basis in fact.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
For your information there was a garbage dump near Jerusalem but it was not in the Gehinnom valley.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Nonsense. That is an internet rumor that has been circulating for a long time but it has no basis in fact.

For your information there was a garbage dump near Jerusalem but it was not in the Gehinnom valley.
If the Rich Man is symbolizing the corrupt High Priest and the other Judean rulers, then I can easily see that great City in Revelation as 1st century Jerusalem [as do many others].
Do you think it was used to clear the dead bodies after the destruction of Jerusalem? According to Josephus, over a million Jews perished in only 5 months. [that period of time is also shown in Revelation] and coincidentally, that is how long the flood in Gen covered the earth....Fascinating!

Gen 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

.....The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.
This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Rev 9:
5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment is as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
10 and they have tails like to scorpions, and stings were in their tails;
and their authority is to injure men five months;


Reve 18:8 Yet this, in one day, shall be arriving the stripes of her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord the God, the one judging Her.


Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.

Eze 39:12
“For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.

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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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LUKE 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

First let us examine the 1st verse "purple and fine linen", and find out where they are used in the NT and OT.
I find it amazing how many times those 2 words together are only mentioned in Luke 16 and Revelation 18 of the NT, actually tying this parable to the book of Revelation!


Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

Rev 18:
12
“merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet
16 “and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet

They are used together mainly in Exodus of the Hebrew OT
I will only post the 1st verse:


Exo 25:4
“blue, purple, and scarlet thread, fine linen, and goats' hair;

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page


THE RICH MAN

Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was “clothed in purple and fine linen.”
Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler.... He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day.
Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty.
The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen. The whole nation, in fact, was called to be a kingdom of priests unto God (Ex. 19:6). By this language Christ was making His meaning very clear to the Pharisees..................................

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.
Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

So when this rich man says, “I’ve got five brethren,” it identifies who he is! If this telling detail has no significance for modern evangelists who preach from this parable, let me assure you that it meant a great deal to those to whom Jesus was speaking, because they knew their history, they held great pride in their ancestry, they knew who their brethren were, they knew exactly who He was talking about! It established to them the identity of the rich man Judah, the southern kingdom of the Jews!

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." (p. 863, "Purple"). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39).
The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." (p. 702, "Linen").
 
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Anguspure

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Jesus was using "eternal" for some reason. What difference would it make to people who wound up in the fire if it was unquenchable or not? If someone is burned to death, what difference would it make how long the fire burns after they are dead?

The fire serves as a reminder of their eternal destruction to those who live.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1)

No, He didn't! Scrpture says "the wages of sin is death." It does not say "eternal death."

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25)
...the punishment that is eternal is the second death, therefore the unrighteous face eternal death.

Wrong! According the the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia and the Talmud among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal punishment and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. See my post #57 this thread for sources and discussion.
I am sure that many held to erroneous beleif, nevertheless the record of the Law and the Prophets does not speak of unconditional immortality of the human soul. Just the opposite in fact.
 
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