LAW of God -- vs -- sinful nature's law of SIN and death

[BobRyan]

Which one should we follow? Or shall we call the Commandments of God - the LAW of God - sin??

No one who knows the Bible can say that what happened in the Old Covenant called the law of sin .

hint: scripture is never called "The law of sin" - not even in Romans 7.


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says that in his flesh HE SERVES the LAW of sin. He is obedient to the LAW of SIN. which is EVIL - that is at WAR against the LAW of God.

Now lets go to Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah standing WITH Christ in glory -

Question: Since this is before the cross are they servants of sin, servants of the law of sin - the law opposed to "The LAW of God"???

We all know what the answer is -- the contrast in Romans 7 is between the sinful nature - vs - the LAW of God that is "Holy just and good".

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
..
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Everyone has free will - which Law do you choose?

======================================

According to you, the law of 10 commandments defines righteousness and sin,

According to Paul... according to scripture.

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
..
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

========================

Romans 2:26

• King James Version
  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
  
• Young's Literal Translation
  If, therefore the uncircumcision the righteousness of the law may keep, shall not his uncircumcision for circumcision be reckoned?
• Romans 6:16
  New American Standard Bible
  Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 8:4

• King James Version
  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
  
• Young's Literal Translation
  that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Law of sin and death, not the law of sin. You lied.

Statement seems to be posted in the form of an oxymoron.

In any case one vote "against" the OP obvious statement - even if I find you logic "illusive"

The LAW of Sin in Romans 7 is the sinful nature - sin... AND death..AND rebellion... and destruction... and... add whatever you wish - it is the sinful nature already described in Romans 3

 

[Doveaman]

Which one should we follow? Or shall we call the Commandments of God - the LAW of God - sin??

hint: scripture is never called "The law of sin" - not even in Romans 7.


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says that in his flesh HE SERVES the LAW of sin. He is obedient to the LAW of SIN. which is EVIL - that is at WAR against the LAW of God.

Now lets go to Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah standing WITH Christ in glory -

Question: Since this is before the cross are they servants of sin, servants of the law of sin - the law opposed to "The LAW of God"???

We all know what the answer is -- the contrast in Romans 7 is between the sinful nature - vs - the LAW of God that is "Holy just and good".

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
..
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Everyone has free will - which Law do you choose?

The law of commandments can also be considered a law of sin and death.

The purpose of the law of commandments was to expose the harmfulness of sin by condemning us to death for sin:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin receives its power to condemn us to death through the law:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Sin has no power to condemn us to death when we are not under the law:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are not under the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[BobRyan]

The law of commandments can also be considered a law of sin and death.

The purpose of the law of commandments was to expose the harmfulness of sin by condemning us to death for sin:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin receives its power to condemn us to death through the law:

That is true to some limited extent -
it is the context of God's law for "the lost" - the Commandments of God for the lost- merely condemn them. It is not evil in the lost at war with the Law of God - rather it is the holy just and good law of God pointing to the lost as sinners Romans 3:19-20

As Romans 8:4-9 points out the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they".

In fact the sinful nature 'does not seek after God' at all - according to Romans 3.

But this does not fit the Romans 7 context where "with my mind I joyfully concur with the Law of God" and "with my mind I SERVE the Law of God".

12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
(The very bondage Romans 6 says he would be released from under the full benefits of the Gospel)

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Romans 3 - says the sinful nature does not seek after God - it does not even want to.

16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

"it is SIN dwelling in me" according to Paul - it is a war against the LAW of God.

19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Sin, evil, dwelling IN Paul is what is at war with the Law of God. His sinful nature

Then Paul calls that sin IN him "a law" -- EVIL present IN him

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

It is "war" between the evil in him, the sin IN him - and the "holy just and GOOD Law" of God.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

A clear contrast between "Holy Just and good ... Law of God" -- vs evil, and in the flesh "the law of sin" waging war against the Law of God.

 

[Doveaman]

That is true

The entire post is also true.

In case you missed it:

The law of commandments can also be considered a law of sin and death.

The purpose of the law of commandments was to expose the harmfulness of sin by condemning us to death for sin:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin receives its power to condemn us to death through the law:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Sin has no power to condemn us to death when we are not under the law:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are not under the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[BobRyan]

This is also true:

The law of commandments can also be considered a law of sin and death.

The purpose of the law of commandments was to expose the harmfulness of sin by condemning us to death for sin:

As I already said - that is how the lost relate to the "Holy Just and good" Law of God.. I merely shows they need salvation -- they need the Gospel.

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

It condemns sin -- it is NOT sin if it "condemns sin".

The point remains.

Sin receives its power to condemn us to death through the law:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Sin has no power to condemn us to death when we are not under the law:

Because under the Gospel - with Christ as our savior the "Holy Just and GOOD" Law of God is "written on the heart and mind" and our debt of sin paid, so then no longer under the condemnation of the "holy just and good" LAW of God - while the lost still ARE! Because the moral law of God did not "vanish" the moment we were forgiven.

I.E. it is STILL a "sin to take God's name in vain".

The point remains.

 

[Doveaman]

As I already said - that is how the lost relate to the "Holy Just and good" Law of God.. I merely shows they need salvation -- they need the Gospel.

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

It condemns sin -- it is NOT sin if it "condemns sin".

The point remains.

Because under the Gospel - with Christ as our savior the "Holy Just and GOOD" Law of God is "written on the heart and mind" and our debt of sin paid, so then no longer under the condemnation of the "holy just and good" LAW of God - while the lost still ARE! Because the moral law of God did not "vanish" the moment we were forgiven.

I.E. it is STILL a "sin to take God's name in vain".

The point remains.

In case you missed it:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are not under the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[BobRyan]

In case you missed it:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

In Romans 4 and 5 Paul points out that SIN existed before Sinai - and that this could NOT be the case if there was no law before Sinai. Because where there is no law there can be no sin for as John points out "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still to this very day.

ALL are held before God as sinners - Romans 3:19,20, 23 "ALL have sinned"
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin" John 16

The lost are first and foremost convicted of their "need" of the Gospel - and that need stems from the fact that the LAW that defines sin (as Rom 3:19-20 point out) STILL exists and still condemns the lost.

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are forgiven and therefore not under the condemnation of the law: AND the "LAW of God is written on our heart and mind " under the Jer 31 "NEW Covenant"

1 John 2:1 'I write these things that you SIN NOT - but if anyone DOES SIN we have advocate with the Father"

So then - still a "sin" to take God's name in vain... even for Christians.. and we all know it

"The COMMANDMENTS of God" still exist - they do not get "deleted with forgiveness" and so the result is..

"The saints KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23) - because it never was the role of the LAW to condemn righteous actions.

As we both already know.

 

[Doveaman]

In Romans 4 and 5 Paul points out that SIN existed before Sinai - and that this could NOT be the case if there was no law before Sinai. Because where there is no law there can be no sin for as John points out "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still to this very day.

You keep putting your own spin on Paul's writings.

Paul did not "point out that SIN existed before Sinai". That's your spin.

Paul simply said that sin was in the world before the law was given, period.

"For before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- ( Romans 5:13).

Paul is saying that sin was in the world before the letter of the law was ever given, but sin had no power to condemn us because there was no law through which sin could condemn us: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

This is also why Paul said:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Paul is making a very simple point:

If there is no letter of law against sin you cannot be condemned for sin, but when a letter of law against sin is introduced you can now be condemned for sin.

If there is no letter of law against speeding you cannot be convicted of speeding, but when a letter of law against speeding is introduced you can now be convicted of speeding.

It's that simple.

And whether or not the letter of law exists against speeding it is still reckless and wrong to speed.

And whether or not the letter of law exists against sin it is still reckless and wrong to sin.

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are forgiven and therefore not under the condemnation of the law

There is more to it than that.

The law also brings death to those who rely on it and live by it:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath." -- (Romans 4:14-15).

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23) - because it never was the role of the LAW to condemn righteous actions.

As we both already know.

Speak for yourself, not for me.

Those who are led by the law of the Spirit do not need the letter of the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

Those who are led by the law of the Spirit are obedient to the love of the Spirit, and those who are obedient to the love of the Spirit do not need the letter of the law, because love fulfills the requirements of the law:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who never had the letter of the law, are able to honor their parents out of love from their hearts, thereby fulfilling the requirements of the law, even though they never had the letter of the law.

 

[pescador]

You keep putting your own spin on Paul's writings.

Paul did not "point out that SIN existed before Sinai". That's your spin.

Paul simply said that sin was in the world before the law was given, period.

"For before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- ( Romans 5:13).

Paul is saying that sin was in the world before the letter of the law was ever given, but sin had no power to condemn us because there was no law through which sin could condemn us: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

This is also why Paul said:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Paul is making a very simple point:

If there is no letter of law against sin you cannot be condemned for sin, but when a letter of law against sin is introduced you can now be condemned for sin.

If there is no letter of law against speeding you cannot be convicted of speeding, but when a letter of law against speeding is introduced you can now be convicted of speeding.

It's that simple.

And whether or not the letter of law exists against speeding it is still reckless and wrong to speed.

And whether or not the letter of law exists against sin it is still reckless and wrong to sin.
There is more to it than that.

The law also brings death to those who rely on it and live by it:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath." -- (Romans 4:14-15).
Speak for yourself, not for me.

Those who are led by the law of the Spirit do not need the letter of the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

Those who are led by the law of the Spirit are obedient to the love of the Spirit, and those who are obedient to the love of the Spirit do not need the letter of the law, because love fulfills the requirements of the law:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who never had the letter of the law, are able to honor their parents out of love from their hearts, thereby fulfilling the requirements of the law, even though they never had the letter of the law.

You are 100% correct! Anyone who disagrees with this hasn't read the Bible, or if they have, they don't understand what it clearly says.

I am always baffled that people don't understand that the New Covenant entirely supersedes the Old Covenant. You can't put new wine in old wineskins!

 

[BobRyan]

In case you missed it:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

In Romans 4 and 5 Paul points out that SIN existed before Sinai - and that this could NOT be the case if there was no law before Sinai. Because where there is no law there can be no sin for as John points out "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still to this very day.

ALL are held before God as sinners - Romans 3:19,20, 23 "ALL have sinned"
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin" John 16

The lost are first and foremost convicted of their "need" of the Gospel - and that need stems from the fact that the LAW that defines sin (as Rom 3:19-20 point out) STILL exists and still condemns the lost.

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are forgiven and therefore not under the condemnation of the law: AND the "LAW of God is written on our heart and mind " under the Jer 31 "NEW Covenant"

1 John 2:1 'I write these things that you SIN NOT - but if anyone DOES SIN we have advocate with the Father"

So then - still a "sin" to take God's name in vain... even for Christians.. and we all know it

"The COMMANDMENTS of God" still exist - they do not get "deleted with forgiveness" and so the result is..

"The saints KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23) - because it never was the role of the LAW to condemn righteous actions.

As we both already know.

You keep putting your own spin on Paul's writings.

A 'mere accusation' - without substance .. so far.

Paul did not "point out that SIN existed before Sinai". That's your spin.

Until you read the actual text.

Where there is no law there is no sin -
Rom 4 :15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression"

Sin has existed from the beginning. As has God's Law
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 3:23 - ALL have sinned
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gen 26:5 " because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Gen 4: 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

Rom 5 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There is the contrast between the giving of the LAW on stone tablets vs the fact that law and violation of the Law were there all along.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- by "definition"
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8

Paul simply said that sin was in the world before the law was given, period.

AND he said that where there is no LAW there is no SIN - Rom 4:15
For "SIN IS transgression of the LAW " 1 John 3:4 not just in OT but also NT.

Paul is saying that sin was in the world before the letter of the law was ever given, but sin had no power to condemn us because there was no law through which sin could condemn us:

False.

The entire world at the time of Noah was held to be sooo sinful the entire world was destroyed.
The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah so sinful - they were burned with fire.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord.

Gen 18:20 “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

This is also why Paul said:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Paul is making a very simple point: the law is not sin, nor is it evil - rather SIN is sin. And the sinful nature wants to do the very thing the law forbids -- because the sinful nature is rebellion against God, it is at war against God.


Rom 8:4-9
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If there is no letter of law against sin you cannot be condemned for sin,

True. Which is why all these texts showing "SIN" from the very beginning - also show LAW from the beginning as we see in Gen 26:5 and Genesis 4 and in the case of Satan -- even before that.

Hence .. it is STILL a sin - to take God's name in vain.

and the command for saints in 1 John 2:1 "These things I write that you SIN NOT - but IF anyone does SIN we have an advocate with the father"

And Jame's message to the saints - James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

If there is no letter of law against speeding you cannot be convicted of speeding, but when a letter of law against speeding is introduced you can now be convicted of speeding.

Agreed. Thus every example above shows the existence of the LAW and that it is still "Sin" to take God's name in vain.

It's that simple.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" - by definition. 1 John 2:4

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

Because there "IS NO LAW against right doing" and never has been.

Obviously.

You cannot fulfill the requirement of law that does not exist....obviously.

LAW exists even for gentiles who have no law giving history such as have had the Jews.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

You cannot show the requirements of the law written on your heart -- in the case of a law that does not exist.... obviously.

Gentiles, who never had the law given to them on stone - as did Israel - STILL are convicted and may choose to accept the New Covenant "LAW written on the heart" as in fact in Acts 18:4 we see "GENTILES in the Synagogue every Sabbath".

 

[Doveaman]

In Romans 4 and 5 Paul points out that SIN existed before Sinai - and that this could NOT be the case if there was no law before Sinai.

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter.

Because where there is no law there can be no sin for as John points out "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- still to this very day.

Sin is the transgression of the righteous requirements of the law (Love). The letter of the law was introduced to reveal the transgressions that were already committed before the letter was given:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Paul is using a human argument to say that apart from the letter of the law he felt no condemnation for sin, but when the letter of the law came, a death penalty for sin was imposed on him.

ALL are held before God as sinners - Romans 3:19,20, 23 "ALL have sinned"

Yes, Paul is saying all have sinned, including himself, and the letter of the law was introduced to convict and condemn all who have sinned:

"I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known what coveting really was, except the law had said, ‘Do not covet.’…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:7-13).

The letter of the law made "known" the sin that already existed so that man would become conscious of the sin that already existed:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." -- (Romans 3:20).

Before the letter of the law was given there was no real consciousness of sin among men, everyone was lawless, except for those few individuals who were led by God's Spirit, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and a few others, but when the letter of the law was introduced, man became conscious of sin through the death penalty of the law.

So then - still a "sin" to take God's name in vain... even for Christians.. and we all know it

"The COMMANDMENTS of God" still exist - they do not get "deleted with forgiveness" and so the result is..

"The saints KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Love fulfills the requirements of the law, therefore those who love God will not abuse His name.

False.

The entire world at the time of Noah was held to be sooo sinful the entire world was destroyed. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah so sinful - they were burned with fire.

The condemnation of the law has past and future application, just as deliverance from the law through the sacrifice of Christ has past and future application:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." -- (Romans 3:19-20).

I know this is one of your favorite scriptures, but notice what Paul is addressing: Paul is making it clear that "observing" the law is not required, because the purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin, and the law makes us conscious of sin by condemning us for sin:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath." -- (Romans 4:14-15).

The law reveals sin by bringing 'wrath' or 'condemnation' for sin:

"For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin through the condemnation of the law became utterly sinful because through the law we began to recognize the harmful nature of sin.

Christ died to deliver all men from the harmful nature of sin by rescuing all men from the condemnation of the law:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts" -- (Galatians 4:4-5).

Christ rescued all men from the condemnation of the law so that we may become sons of God through His Spirit in our hearts. Now that we are sons we are no longer to allow ourselves to become enslaved again by the law:

"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." -- (Galatians 4:9-11).

Because there "IS NO LAW against right doing" and never has been.

Obviously.

Then why are you still relying on the law, is it because you are not doing right?

You cannot show the requirements of the law written on your heart -- in the case of a law that does not exist.... obviously.

Ha....to "fulfill" the requirements of the law means to obey the original intent God required. And the original intent God required is love from the heart. Love from the heart fulfills the righteous requirement of the law:

"Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." -- (Romans 13:9-10).

Gentiles, who never had the law given to them on stone - as did Israel - STILL are convicted and may choose to accept the New Covenant "LAW written on the heart" as in fact in Acts 18:4 we see "GENTILES in the Synagogue every Sabbath".

Paul is not talking about Gentiles who accept the New Covenant and are led by the Spirit, Paul is talking about Gentiles who obey the requirements of the law naturally 'by nature':

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Paul is talking about Gentiles who obey the requirements of the law by nature, apart from the New Covenant and apart from the Old.

 

[BobRyan]

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter.

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

Paul is using a human argument to say that apart from the letter of the law he felt no condemnation for sin, but when the letter of the law came, a death penalty for sin was imposed on him.

That sin - against the LAW - condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

"I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known what coveting really was, except the law had said, ‘Do not covet.’…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:7-13).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

Before the letter of the law was given there was no real consciousness of sin among men, everyone was lawless, except for those few individuals who were led by God's Spirit

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

 

[Doveaman]

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai. Adam, in the garden, was commanded by the Spirit of God, he was not commanded by the letter of the law. And Adam, in the garden, disobeyed the Spirit of God, he did not disobey the letter of the law.

And we both know it.

Why do you keep saying "we both know it" even though we both disagree on it? I don't get it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

1 John 3:4 does not say SIN IS transgression "against" the LAW.

1 John 3:4 says sin is the transgression "of" the law.

Sin is disobedience to the law of the Spirit. Even we Christians sin when we disobey the law of the Spirit, but we are not condemned for sin because we are not under the law of the letter.

And, as we both know it , Satan first sinned before this earth was formed and before the letter of the law was given. Satan first sinned before the sun ruled the day and before the seventh-day law was introduced. Again, this proves Paul's point that sin existed in the world before the letter of the law was given. Satan, who existed before this earth was formed and before the letter of the law was given, is the author and father of sin.

That sin - against the LAW - condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

We do not "sin" against “the LAW”. We speak against the law and we act against the law, and we even fight against the law, but we do not "sin" against the law. We sin against God, just as Satan did before the letter of the law was given. The letter of the law was given to make us conscious of the sin committed against God by the whole world:

“For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” -- (Romans 5:13).

Sin was in the world before the letter of the law was given, but sin has no power to convict and condemn when there is no letter of law.

“All who sin without the law will also perish without the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.” -- (Romans 2:12).

We can sin under the letter of the law and we can sin without the letter of the law. The presence of sin is not dependent upon the presence of the letter of the law.

“For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.” -- Romans 4:14-15).

Where there is no letter of the law there can be no transgression of that law, and therefore no condemnation or wrath from a law that is now obsolete for those who are in Christ:

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son” -- (Romans 8:1-3).

The letter of the law was powerless to achieved God's righteous requirements because it was weakened by the sin in human nature. So the only thing the letter of the law ever achieved was to reveal the sin in human nature by condemning us for the sin in human nature

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

We make VOID the letter of the LAW by faith, and we ESTABLISH the LAW of the Spirit through faith, and the law of the Spirit is Love: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." -- (Romans 13:9-10).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

The letter of the law reveals sin, but it does not necessarily define sin since sin existed before the letter of the law was given. Satan and one-third of the angels sinned before the letter of the law was given. Sin is not defined by our disobedience to the letter, but by our disobedience to the Spirit of God:

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men." -- (Matthew 12:31).

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

It would be good for clarity if you would include the actual verses you are referring to.

In Romans 1, Paul tells us:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — His eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." -- (Romans 1:18-20).

The truth of who God is and what God does was revealed through His creation order, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1 is telling us that mankind had suppressed the truth of God as revealed through His creation order, and not as revealed through the letter of the law. The truth of God, as revealed through His creation order, was suppressed by the wickedness of men, resulting in all men becoming fools:

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools" -- (Romans 1:21-22).

After all men became fools and lost all consciousness of God's truth, God latter introduce the letter of the law through the Jews to make us conscious of our wickedness and condemnation, and to point us to Christ, our deliverer, through whom God's original truth would be restored:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." -- (Romans 3:20-23).

 

[BobRyan]

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter.

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

Paul is using a human argument to say that apart from the letter of the law he felt no condemnation for sin, but when the letter of the law came, a death penalty for sin was imposed on him.

That sin - against the LAW - condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

"I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known what coveting really was, except the law had said, ‘Do not covet.’…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:7-13).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

Before the letter of the law was given there was no real consciousness of sin among men, everyone was lawless, except for those few individuals who were led by God's Spirit

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

============================================================

But in regard to this --

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

you said ..

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

I didn't think that was the hard part. what is "not to get"???

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai. Adam, in the garden, was commanded by the Spirit of God, he was not commanded by the letter of the law.

The "letters" in the Bible are used to compose "words" - the Bible is the "Word of God" because it is authored by the Holy Spirit - who is the third person of the Godhead.

Is this cause you confusion? Why keep trying suppose division between the Holy Spirit and the Bible?

I don't see the point of it.

God "spoke" the Ten Commandments at Sinai and then WROTE the Ten on stone.

You're making a big difference between the time God spoke it - vs wrote it as if writing it puts it at war against His spoken word.

Seems a bit odd.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doveaman]

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

What exactly are you saying here?

I said the law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter, and you respond by saying "There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture".

How is the Holy Spirit being pitted against scripture?

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

There you go again putting your own spin on scripture.

We do not transgress "against" the law, we transgress against God.

We do not sin against the law, we sin against God.

The law reveals our transgression/sin against God.

That sin - against the LAW

- condemns "the whole world" and "every mouth shut" for "all have sinned" thus all need salvation. as we see in Romans 3:19-20.

You are correct, the letter of the law condemns the whole world because of our inability to obey it. This is why the letter of the law had to be made obsolete, because it condemns us all. Those who are now in Christ are no longer under any condemnation of the letter or under any obligation to the letter:

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free...You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ...But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law...But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5).

Of that SAME LAW Paul says at the end of the SAME chapter "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31 ... same chapter

Do we then make void the righteous requirement of the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the righteous requirement of the LAW. And the righteous requirement of the LAW is Love: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." -- (Romans 13:9-10).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

Indeed not - the letter of the law reveals the sin that was already in the world before the letter of the law was given:

“For before the law was given, sin was in the world.” -- (Romans 5:13). "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." -- (Romans 3:20).

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

I already responded to this copy-paste in my previous post.

But in regard to this --

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

More copy-paste.

The "letters" in the Bible are used to compose "words"

The letters in the Bible, which includes historical accounts, is not the same as the letters of the law written on stone. Big difference.

The letters on stone were written on stone perhaps indicating the hardheartedness of those who try to obey those stone-letters.

the Bible is the "Word of God" because it is authored by the Holy Spirit - who is the third person of the Godhead.

And the Holy Spirit authored the Bible to also say: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

Is this cause you confusion? Why keep trying suppose division between the Holy Spirit and the Bible?

The confusion lies with you, since you are the one who is supposing a division by your insistence that Christians must obey an obsolete law that brought death.

I don't see the point of it.

Nor do I.

God "spoke" the Ten Commandments at Sinai and then WROTE the Ten on stone.

God also "spoke" and WROTE: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter...for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

You're making a big difference between the time God spoke it - vs wrote it as if writing it puts it at war against His spoken word.

No, I am making a big difference between the old covenant and the new covenant, between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law, between the ministry that brought death and the ministry that brings life, between a law that is eternal and a law that is obsolete:

"By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete" -- (Hebrews 8:13).

Seems a bit odd.

And therein lies your confusion.

 

[BobRyan]

"I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known what coveting really was, except the law had said, ‘Do not covet.’…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:7-13).

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

Before the letter of the law was given there was no real consciousness of sin among men, everyone was lawless, except for those few individuals who were led by God's Spirit

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.

==========================================================

But in regard to this --

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

you said ..

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

I didn't think that was the hard part. what is "not to get"???

The law of the Spirit existed before Sinai. Adam, in the garden, was commanded by the Spirit of God, he was not commanded by the letter of the law.

The "letters" in the Bible are used to compose "words" - the Bible is the "Word of God" because it is authored by the Holy Spirit - who is the third person of the Godhead.

Is this cause you confusion? Why keep trying suppose division between the Holy Spirit and the Bible?

I don't see the point of it.

God "spoke" the Ten Commandments at Sinai and then WROTE the Ten on stone.

You're making a big difference between the time God spoke it - vs wrote it as if writing it puts it at war against His spoken word.

Seems a bit odd.

What exactly are you saying here?
I said the law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter, and you respond by saying "There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture".

How is the Holy Spirit being pitted against scripture?

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

Or was it your intent to say that the Law as known to Abraham in Genesis 26:5 - is in perfect agreement with the written Word of God??

We do not transgress "against" the law, we transgress against God.
.

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

I prefer the Word of God when it comes to doctrine.

 

[Doveaman]

Indeed - that law defines what sin IS - as we already saw in Romans 3:19-20 and again in Romans 7.

total nonsense.

Even Romans 1 rejects that idea telling us that godless no-Bible pagans are aware of sin.
==========================================================
But in regard to this --

There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture ... since 2 Peter 1:20-21 says it is the Holy Spirit that is the author of scripture.

And we both know it.

"SIN IS transgression against the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

you said ..

I didn't think that was the hard part. what is "not to get"???

The "letters" in the Bible are used to compose "words" - the Bible is the "Word of God" because it is authored by the Holy Spirit - who is the third person of the Godhead.

Is this cause you confusion? Why keep trying suppose division between the Holy Spirit and the Bible?

I don't see the point of it.

God "spoke" the Ten Commandments at Sinai and then WROTE the Ten on stone.

You're making a big difference between the time God spoke it - vs wrote it as if writing it puts it at war against His spoken word.

Seems a bit odd.

There is no point in continually copy-pasting the same old posts that I already addressed many times. It doesn't help your argument.

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

How can they be in agreement?

The law of the Spirit is the law of the divine nature, the law of love and life.
The law of the letter is the law for human nature, the law of condemnation and death:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

We who are in Christ no longer live by human nature nor rely on the letter of the law. We now participate in God's divine nature where we now live and rely on God's love just as God Himself lives and rely on His love:

"He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him...because in this world we are like Him” (1 John 4:16-17).

Or was it your intent to say that the Law as known to Abraham in Genesis 26:5 - is in perfect agreement with the written Word of God??

Nope, it is my intent to say that the law of the Spirit is not the same as the law of the letter and that Abraham lived by the law of the Spirit:

“The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham...So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse…Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith.' The law is not based on faith…Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law…He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit…The promises were spoken to Abraham…What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.” (Galatians 3:8-17).

The covenant based on God's promise to Abraham which God previously established with Abraham was the new covenant of the Spirit, which was given 430 years before the letter of the law was introduced. Abraham lived by faith under the new covenant of the Spirit, and not by law under the old covenant of the letter.

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

Funny, I was thinking the same about you.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

I prefer the Word of God when it comes to doctrine.

The "law of liberty" is not the letter of the law.

The law of liberty is the fundamental truth that God Himself lives by and is applicable to all His followers, angels and humans alike. The fundamental truth of God’s law is love. God is love and love is of God and all our actions are derived from the fundamental truth of God’s love.

The letter of the law with its physical regulations was also derived from the fundamental truth of God’s love. This is why love is the fulfillment of the law. Love accomplishes the fundamental truth of God’s law.

The Jewish nation of Israel was called to live by the physical regulations that were derived from the fundamental truth of God's law. But the spiritual church of Israel (the body of Christ) is called to live by the fundamental truth itself. We are called to live by the love that God Himself lives by, and not by mere physical regulations that were derived from that truth.

You seems to think that God’s love is achieved by obeying the physical regulations of the law, but you have it backwards. The righteousness of God’s love is not achieved by our obedience to the regulations of the law, instead it is our obedience to God’s love that sets us free from the regulations of the law. This is why Paul said:

“To those under the law I became like one under the law…so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law…so as to win those not having the law.” (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).

In Paul's efforts to win the Jews he followed the letter of the law, and in his efforts to win the Gentiles he ignored the letter of the law. Paul in his efforts to win the Gentiles was not restricted by the physical regulation of the law. But Paul always upheld the fundamental truth of God’s law, because in all of Paul's efforts to win both Jews and Gentiles he was always expressing the fundamental truth of God's love.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no point in continually copy-pasting the same old posts that I already addressed many times.

It doesn't help your argument.

I am showing context for the discussion. If you were actually correct in your wild claim that this is not in fact exposing the key glaring flaw in your statement - then you would actually want your well stated case being shown - as often as possible.

We both know what is going on here. I cut out the winding rambling parts and just show where clear statement is made - and then that the bible refutes it

 

[BobRyan]

Great example of the above - where a suggestion is made - then I show that the Bible refutes that speculation.

=========================

What exactly are you saying here?
I said the law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter, and you respond by saying "There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture".

How is the Holy Spirit being pitted against scripture?

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

Or was it your intent to say that the Law as known to Abraham in Genesis 26:5 - is in perfect agreement with the written Word of God??

Nope, it is my intent to say that the law of the Spirit is not the same as the law of the letter and that Abraham lived by the law of the Spirit:

“The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham...So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse…Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith.' The law is not based on faith…Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law…He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit…The promises were spoken to Abraham…What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.” (Galatians 3:8-17).

There is no "Law of the LETTER" in that entire Gal 3 quote you pasted ... and we both know it. It is only in the suggestion you make about it.

We do not transgress "against" the law, we transgress against God.
.

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

I prefer the Word of God when it comes to doctrine.