What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Mark Corbett

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Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 6:23
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrews 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
I don't see the words "final fate" in any of these verses. The appointment in Heb. 9:27 satisfies the requirement of Rom. 3:23.

I appreciate your use of Scripture to present reasons for your view. I understand what you're saying (at least I think I do). You're saying that Romans 5 talks about sin causing all people to physically die in this world as a result of sin. You then reason that this physical death, something we will all experience, is the same thing Paul is referring to in Romans 6:23. I think the weakness of this argument is that you seem to be claiming that Romans 6:23 ONLY refers to the death that all people experience in this life. If the verses you quote above were the only relevant verses your argument would might make sense. But they're not.

In Philippians Paul makes it clear that the "final fate" of the ungodly is indeed destruction:

ESV Philippians 3:19a Their end is destruction,

ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια (Phil. 3:19a BGT)
hon to telos apoleia

telos means "end" or "destiny". It could very legitmately be translated "final fate".

apoleia means destruction, and when used to describe what happens to people it very consistently refers to death (usually a violent death).

The verb form of apoliea is used in John 3:16, a verse which sheds light on this discussion:

NIV John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish (apollumi) but have eternal life.

In John 3:16 "perish" cannot be talking about the death of the body here on earth, because those who believe still experience the death of our bodies. It is talking about finally perishing in the final judgment.

Romans 6:23 may possibly include the death of our bodies here on earth, but this cannot be all that it means because like John 3:16, it is contrasting the fate of those who have been made righteous through faith in Christ with those who remain unrighteous. Our fates are not the same!
 
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Der Alte

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I appreciate your use of Scripture to present reasons for your view. I understand what you're saying (at least I think I do). You're saying that Romans 5 talks about sin causing all people to physically die in this world as a result of sin. You then reason that this physical death, something we will all experience, is the same thing Paul is referring to in Romans 6:23. I think the weakness of this argument is that you seem to be claiming that Romans 6:23 ONLY refers to the death that all people experience in this life. If the verses you quote above were the only relevant verses your argument would might make sense. But they're not.
In Philippians Paul makes it clear that the "final fate" of the ungodly is indeed destruction:
ESV Philippians 3:19a Their end is destruction,
ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια (Phil. 3:19a BGT)
hon to telos apoleia
telos means "end" or "destiny". It could very legitmately be translated "final fate".
apoleia means destruction, and when used to describe what happens to people it very consistently refers to death (usually a violent death).
Were the Romans capable of totally destroying people?
Act 25:16
(16) To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die,[ ἀπώλεια/apoleia] before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.
The verb form of
apoliea is used in John 3:16, a verse which sheds light on this discussion:
NIV John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish (
apollumi) but have eternal life.
In John 3:16 "perish" cannot be talking about the death of the body here on earth, because those who believe still experience the death of our bodies. It is talking about finally perishing in the final judgment.
Mat 2:13
(13) When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill [ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] him."

Mat 8:25
(25) The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown![ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi]"

Mat 12:14
(14) But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill [ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] Jesus.

Mat 21:41
(41) "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,"[ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
In these verses were ordinary men capable of totally destroying other men?
Romans 6:23 may possibly include the death of our bodies here on earth, but this cannot be all that it means because like John 3:16, it is contrasting the fate of those who have been made righteous through faith in Christ with those who remain unrighteous. Our fates are not the same!
I agree that our fates are not the same but it has not been conclusively shown that the end of the wicked is annihilation.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Were the Romans capable of totally destroying people?
Act 25:16
(16) To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die,[ ἀπώλεια/apoleia] before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.

Mat 2:13
(13) When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill [ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] him."

Mat 8:25
(25) The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown![ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi]"

Mat 12:14
(14) But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill [ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] Jesus.

Mat 21:41
(41) "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,"[ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
In these verses were ordinary men capable of totally destroying other men?

I agree that our fates are not the same but it has not been conclusively shown that the end of the wicked is annihilation.

You are asking a very relevant and helpful question. You rightly quote Acts 25:16, Matthew 2:13, 8:25, 12:14, and 21:41 as examples where apollumi is used to describe what people (or in 8:25, a storm) do to other people. (Technical note: apollumi does not appear in all Greek texts for Acts 25:16, but this makes little difference to the overall point, which at any rate is well supported by the other texts mentioned and more could be added!)

You are right to say that men are not capable of totally destroying other men. Men can, however, destroy the bodies of other men such that those bodies are dead and no longer feel, think, or know anything. The souls of the people are not destroyed, but their bodies are. Now, here is where Matthew 10:28 makes things so clear for us:

ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell.

What men do to other men's bodies (kill them with the plain, literal meaning of causing them to cease functioning, including ceasing to feel anything or be conscious) is precisely what God will do to "both soul and body in hell".
 
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Der Alte

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You are asking a very relevant and helpful question. You rightly quote Acts 25:16, Matthew 2:13, 8:25, 12:14, and 21:41 as examples where apollumi is used to describe what people (or in 8:25, a storm) do to other people. (Technical note: apollumi does not appear in all Greek texts for Acts 25:16, but this makes little difference to the overall point, which at any rate is well supported by the other texts mentioned and more could be added!)
I just checked my Greek NT textual apparatus, It does not show any textual variants fot Acts 26:15
You are right to say that men are not capable of totally destroying other men. Men can, however, destroy the bodies of other men such that those bodies are dead and no longer feel, think, or know anything. The souls of the people are not destroyed, but their bodies are. Now, here is where Matthew 10:28 makes things so clear for us:
ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy (
apollumi) both soul and body in hell.
What men do to other men's bodies (kill them with the plain, literal meaning of causing them to cease functioning, including ceasing to feel anything or be conscious) is precisely what God will do to "both soul and body in hell".
Now all we need are 2-3 verses showing that men's soul's are or will actually be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.
 
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ClementofA

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In the Psalms, as well as in some prophetic passages, we sometimes see a mix of messages about an immediate situation with messages related to something much bigger in the future.

Psalm 22 is a good example. Parts of the Psalm may indeed be describing David's own anguish and painful experiences. But these give way to a deeper, bigger prophecy about the crucifixion of Christ.

We see this type of thing also in Isaiah 7, where a prophecy about a child being born is indeed about something that happens in Isaiah's day, but it is also about something, Someone, much greater.

I believe that while the promises and prophecies of Psalm 37 may have had some level of fulfillment in David's day, other parts of it go well beyond this and look towards the final fates of both the righteous and unrighteous. Here are some reasons I think this:

1. The major theme of the whole Psalm is that even though evil people do sometimes prosper and succeed now, a time is coming when this will no longer be the case. The righteous will be rewarded and the unrighteous destroyed. But this promise happens only in a VERY limited way here on earth. It's complete fulfillment awaits the coming age.

2. Some of the language about the righteous specifically mentions rewards which last "forever":

NIV Psalm 37:18 The blameless spend their days under the LORD's care, and their inheritance will endure forever.

NIV Psalm 37:27 Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever.

NIV Psalm 37:29 The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

To me, it seems more likely that the eternal fate of the righteous is being compared to the eternal fate of the unrighteous than that the eternal fate of the righteous is being compared to the earthly, temporary fate of the unrighteous. This is especially true because the two fates are discussed together and contrasted with each other repeatedly.

3. Sure, it is true that wicked people eventually die in this life. But so do righteous people! The Psalm is contrasting the righteous who will dwell in the land forever with the fate of the wicked.

The wicked will wither and die away like grass (Psalm 37:2), be destroyed (Psalm 37:9), “be no more” (Psalm 37:10) so that even if you go looking for them you cannot find them, will perish (Psalm 37:20), will go up in smoke like grass consumed in a fire (Psalm 37:20), will be “completely destroyed” (Psalm 37:28), will pass away and be no more (Psalm 37:36), and will have no future (Psalm 37:38). That sure sounds like annihilation!

4. The following verse seems to fit a final future fate much better than a temporal one:

NIV Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

When are all sinners destroyed? Certainly at no point in David's lifetime. And at what point can it be said that the wicked no longer have a future. There are a lot of wicked people around today who still have a future and this will be the case until the final judgment.

So I am not denying that some of the promises of judgment are partly fulfilled here on earth. However, I do believe that this Psalm (and others) look beyond this age to what God will do at the final judgment in the age to come.

This interpretation relies on the translations of the synonyms OLAM and AD as "forever" even though lexicons & usage shows they are often used of finite duration.

You yourself, Mark, say Psalm 37's "complete fulfillment awaits the coming age." I have no problem with that, seeing as there is more than one coming age (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Rev.11:15, etc).

The righteous in this life will be blessed in that "coming age" whereas the unrighteous will not. Ultimately, though, the unrighteous will also be blessed (1 Cor.15:22, 28, etc).

The wicked will perish & be destroyed, yet God "turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men" (Psa. 90:3).

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

In Psa.37:10 & 36 the words "no more" do not occur in the Hebrew, but just "not" as in not found on the earth in this life, according to the context & similar passages.

In Psa.37:28 the "completely destroyed" of your NIV is an anomaly, as no other version i've seen among dozens says that.

In Psa.37:38 the word for "future" is Strongs 319, acharith, ..end...latter part...of a man's life...outcome... "a future, i.e. a happy close of life, suggesting sometimes the idea of a posterity"..."issue of a course of action". There is no requirement to interpret that as referring to anything beyond the man's earthly life, or a coming age, as opposed to final destiny. The word OLAM in the passage could refer to the present age the Psalmist was living in or a future age such as the millennium.

Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God.........................Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return.....How can one return from "destruction?"
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts..........................."All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him......................."All" nations!
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God..........................Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God.........................That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things......................I wish we would believe that.
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him.............For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him...............Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all..................................Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works.................Let's start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall.............................Who hasn't fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him........................For "eternal torment?"
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him..........................If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?


Psalm 72

11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.

Psalm 86

9All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

10For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

13For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalm 33

8Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Psalm 90

2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Psalm 66

Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:

2Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.

3Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.

4All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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A lot in the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is based on some mis translation also. Aionios, is sometimes translated as forever, when it cannot mean that. The ETC crowd often points to Jesus' use of aionios fire, translated eternal fire. However, Jude give us an example of aionios fire and it's not still burning. Jude said that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of aionios fire. Anyone can go to the Middle East and see that those two cities are not still burning.
Does Jude say that Sodom and Gomorrah will burn forever or does it say the fire is eternal? Does aionios mean eternal and is it sometimes used hyperbolically?
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:
“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1)
(3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos
Here “aion” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aion” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1) in the heavens.
Here “aion house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aion” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aion” means “eternal.”
Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, [Melchizadec] because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos
Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)
Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.

III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
Notes.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular.
Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων

John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη

among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου

Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων

the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49
 
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Mark Corbett

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I just checked my Greek NT textual apparatus, It does not show any textual variants fot Acts 26:15

Just a minor technical point. I mentioned Acts 25:16 and you looked up Acts 26:15. If you look up 25:16 I think you will find that εἰς ἀπώλειαν is in some mss but not others, and that this accounts for some of the difference between the NKJV and ESV, for example.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Matthew 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Mark 3:29

“But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:”


John 5:29

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

You often make comments with just Bible verses. Nothing wrong with that! In fact, I love to read Bible verses! I could mark every comment with just Bible verses "agree", "like", "winner", and more!

However, I think sometimes you are intending to make a point relevant to a topic under discussion. If this is the case, it would help if you wrote even a very short note indicating what point or view you think the verses you quote are supporting. Of course, there's not requirement for you to do this, and I for one am blessed by reading the Bible verses you post.
 
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Der Alte

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Just a minor technical point. I mentioned Acts 25:16 and you looked up Acts 26:15. If you look up 25:16 I think you will find that εἰς ἀπώλειαν is in some mss but not others, and that this accounts for some of the difference between the NKJV and ESV, for example.
Acts 25:16 from NA28. The textual apparatus in my copy of NA26 does not show any textual variants in this vs. and reads exactly as NA28.
16 πρὸς οὓς ἀπεκρίθην ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἔθος Ῥωμαίοις χαρίζεσθαί τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ κατηγορούμενος κατὰ πρόσωπον ἔχοι τοὺς κατηγόρους τόπον τε ἀπολογίας λάβοι περὶ τοῦ ἐγκλήματος.
Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece :: Read NA28 online
 
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Mark Corbett

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Acts 25:16 from NA28. The textual apparatus in my copy of NA26 does not show any textual variants in this vs. and reads exactly as NA28.
16 πρὸς οὓς ἀπεκρίθην ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἔθος Ῥωμαίοις χαρίζεσθαί τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ κατηγορούμενος κατὰ πρόσωπον ἔχοι τοὺς κατηγόρους τόπον τε ἀπολογίας λάβοι περὶ τοῦ ἐγκλήματος.
Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece :: Read NA28 online

Looking at your link, I do not see a textual variant in the online NA28. However, it seems to list very few variants there. At any rate, on by BibleWorks CNTTS Critical Apparatus I found it. I tried to copy it here, but the fonts don't work. At any rate, if you compare the following texts, you can see the issue:


ESV Acts 25:16 I answered them that it was not the custom of the Romans to give up anyone before the accused met the accusers face to face and had opportunity to make his defense concerning the charge laid against him.

NKJ Acts 25:16 "To them I answered,`It is not the custom of the Romans to deliver any man to destruction before the accused meets the accusers face to face, and has opportunity to answer for himself concerning the charge against him.'

NA28 Acts 25:16 πρὸς οὓς ἀπεκρίθην ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἔθος Ῥωμαίοις χαρίζεσθαί τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ κατηγορούμενος κατὰ πρόσωπον ἔχοι τοὺς κατηγόρους τόπον τε ἀπολογίας λάβοι περὶ τοῦ ἐγκλήματος.

ABYZ Acts 25:16 Πρὸς οὓς ἀπεκρίθην, ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἔθος Ῥωμαίοις χαρίζεσθαί τινα ἄνθρωπον εἰς ἀπώλειαν, πρὶν ἢ ὁ κατηγορούμενος κατὰ πρόσωπον ἔχοι τοὺς κατηγόρους, τόπον τε ἀπολογίας λάβοι περὶ τοῦ ἐγκλήματος.

The NKJV has this footnote:
Notes:
1 NU-Text omits [to destruction], although it is implied. }

And the CSB has this footnote:

CSB Notes (Act 25:16)
Notes:
1 25:16 Other mss add to destruction
 
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