What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Butch5

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Does Jude say that Sodom and Gomorrah will burn forever or does it say the fire is eternal? Does aionios mean eternal and is it sometimes used hyperbolically?
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:
“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1)
(3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos
Here “aion” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aion” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1) in the heavens.
Here “aion house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aion” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aion” means “eternal.”
Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, [Melchizadec] because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos
Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)
Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.

III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
Notes.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular.
Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων

John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη

among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου

Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων

the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49

Sorry, but it can't and doesn't mean eternal.
 
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Sorry, but it can't and doesn't mean eternal.
Do you mean that "aionios" in Jud 1:7 "can't and doesn't mean eternal?"
Verses which show conclusively that αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal.
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos​
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:​
“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1a) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1a)
(1a) αἰώνιος/aionios (3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1a) in the heavens.​
Here “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aionios” means “eternal.”
Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos​
Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)​
Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.
III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular.
Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49​
• A. T. Robertson 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2 Corinthians 4:17
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.​
 
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Butch5

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Do you mean that "aionios" in Jud 1:7 "can't and doesn't mean eternal?"
Verses which show conclusively that αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal.
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos​
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:​
“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1a) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1a)
(1a) αἰώνιος/aionios (3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos​
Here “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1a) in the heavens.​
Here “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aionios” means “eternal.”
Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos​
Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)​
Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.
III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular.
Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49​
• A. T. Robertson 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2 Corinthians 4:17
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.​


Do you realize the opinions of others are not infallible? Have you considered another way to understand the passages you posted? Aionios cannot mean eternal. The Greeks didn't have a word for eternal, that's why they used the phrase, "ages of the ages". Put your definition in place of ages and see that it doesn't make sense. For the, eternities of the eternities doesn't make any sense. There is only one eternity, not multiples. Besides that, the word is used in the Scriptures of finite periods of time. A word cannot have opposing meanings.
 
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Do you realize the opinions of others are not infallible? Have you considered another way to understand the passages you posted? Aionios cannot mean eternal. The Greeks didn't have a word for eternal, that's why they used the phrase, "ages of the ages". Put your definition in place of ages and see that it doesn't make sense. For the, eternities of the eternities doesn't make any sense. There is only one eternity, not multiples. Besides that, the word is used in the Scriptures of finite periods of time. A word cannot have opposing meanings.
Thank you for your advice about the opinions of others I will keep that in mind when I read your opinions. No, there are not other ways to "interpret" the verses I quoted. Usage alone does not determine meaning. I provided a definition of the grammatical term "apposition" in my previous post.
.....Here is an example of apposition from English "[1]six-foot-six and [2]weighed two-forty-five, Kinda [3] broad at the shoulder and [4] narrow at the hip. And everybody knew you didn't give no lip to big John." There are four appositional phrases here which identify one person.
.....Now lets look at three appositional phrases from the verses I quoted.
-One, “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God” The words "eternal, immortal, invisible" refer to God. God cannot live for only "aion"/age(s) and be "immortal" at the same time.
-Two, ”seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life“ Believers cannot seek for only "aion"/age(s) and immortality at the same time.
-Three, ”[Melchizadec] “continueth ever, has an unchangeable priesthood.” Melchizadek couldn't continue only for "aion"/age(s) and be unchangeable at the same time.
In all the examples I quoted "aion" can only mean "eternal."
.....You are relying on the lexical fallacy, "Illegitimate totality transfer:" which assumes that all the uses that occur at a given time apply in any given instance.
.....That words are sometimes used hyperbolically does not change their inherent meaning.
.....God said that He would increase the descendants of Abraham until they would be more numerous than the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea, seven times. Gen 22:17, 32:12, 15:5, 26:4, Ex 32:13, Jer 33:22, Hos 1:10. The descendants of Abraham are definitely not more numerous than the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea, that is hyperbole.
.....The repetition of words for emphasis as in εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon is a figure of speech called epezeuksis. An almost identical phrase using a different word occurs in 2 Cor 4:10 "υπερβολην εις υπερβολην"/huperbolen eis huperbolen which is translated "far more exceeding." The English word "hyperbole" is derived from the Greek word υπερβολην
 
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Thank you for your advice about the opinions of others I will keep that in mind when I read your opinions. No, there are not other ways to "interpret" the verses I quoted. Usage alone does not determine meaning. I provided a definition of the grammatical term "apposition" in my previous post.
.....Here is an example of apposition from English "[1]six-foot-six and [2]weighed two-forty-five, Kinda [3] broad at the shoulder and [4] narrow at the hip. And everybody knew you didn't give no lip to big John." There are four appositional phrases here which identify one person.
.....Now lets look at three appositional phrases from the verses I quoted.
-One, “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God” The words "eternal, immortal, invisible" refer to God. God cannot live for only "aion"/age(s) and be "immortal" at the same time.
-Two, ”seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life“ Believers cannot seek for only "aion"/age(s) and immortality at the same time.
-Three, ”[Melchizadec] “continueth ever, has an unchangeable priesthood.” Melchizadek couldn't continue only for "aion"/age(s) and be unchangeable at the same time.
In all the examples I quoted "aion" can only mean "eternal."


Yes, they can. If you define aion correctly.
.....You are relying on the lexical fallacy, "Illegitimate totality transfer:" which assumes that all the uses that occur at a given time apply in any given instance.
.....That words are sometimes used hyperbolically does not change their inherent meaning.
.....God said that He would increase the descendants of Abraham until they would be more numerous than the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea, seven times. Gen 22:17, 32:12, 15:5, 26:4, Ex 32:13, Jer 33:22, Hos 1:10. The descendants of Abraham are definitely not more numerous than the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea, that is hyperbole.
.....The repetition of words for emphasis as in εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon is a figure of speech called epezeuksis. An almost identical phrase using a different word occurs in 2 Cor 4:10 "υπερβολην εις υπερβολην"/huperbolen eis huperbolen which is translated "far more exceeding." The English word "hyperbole" is derived from the Greek word υπερβολην

You're confusing definition with useage. Aion cannot mean eternal. The definition cannot be eternity. That can simply be seen by it's usage. If you define aion as eternal then that's what it means. However, it is used of things that are not eternal.

And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
(Lev. 23:41 KJV)

We are told quite a few times in the NT that the ordinances of the Law have ended, however, the translators of the English Bible have translated aionion as for ever. Jesus said the Law and the prophets were until John. Paul said the Law was vanishing away. Which is it? Who's correct, Jesus and Paul or the English translators. You see, by translating aionion as forever, they've imposed their theology on the text.

The word, aion means and age. An age, by definition is an undefined period of time, it's usually a long time. Scientists use this word for periods of time, such as the "Ice Age", or the "Stone Age." Now surely you're not going to argue that the Ice Age and the Stone age are eternal. It was used to translate "Olam" which didn't mean eternity either. It basically meant, for the foreseeable future. Since aion is an undefined period of time it can incorporate the concept of eternity, thus the phrase ages of ages. However, it cannot be defined as eternity because that would limit it's use to only that which is unending and it is clearly used of things that end.

As I said, defining it as eternity doesn't make sense when that definition is applied to the text. Eternities of eternities doesn't make sense.

However, that aion is used of things that end proves that aionios fire can be a finite period of time. That fact is supported by Scripture which tells us that Gehenna will not burn for eternity, but will one day be made holy to the Lord.
 
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Butch5

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That fact is supported by Scripture which tells us that Gehenna will not burn for eternity, but will one day be made holy to the Lord.
Butch5
from above post - is not working as to reply at the moment

================
You think the lake of fire will be holy one day? What about the evil angels that will be cast into it? They do not need to be tormented to know God, as they already do. In the time of Jesus Christ on the earth-they had to shut up when He told them to, go where He put them, feared torment/destroy, knew His name and Paul's/later, and fell down before Him.

Yes, the lake of fire, Gehenna, will one day be made holy to the Lord
 
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Yes, they can. If you define aion correctly.
You're confusing definition with useage. Aion cannot mean eternal. The definition cannot be eternity. That can simply be seen by it's usage. If you define aion as eternal then that's what it means. However, it is used of things that are not eternal.
And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
(Lev. 23:41 KJV)
We are told quite a few times in the NT that the ordinances of the Law have ended, however, the translators of the English Bible have translated aionion as for ever. Jesus said the Law and the prophets were until John. Paul said the Law was vanishing away. Which is it? Who's correct, Jesus and Paul or the English translators. You see, by translating aionion as forever, they've imposed their theology on the text.
The word, aion means and age. An age, by definition is an undefined period of time, it's usually a long time. Scientists use this word for periods of time, such as the "Ice Age", or the "Stone Age." Now surely you're not going to argue that the Ice Age and the Stone age are eternal. It was used to translate "Olam" which didn't mean eternity either. It basically meant, for the foreseeable future. Since aion is an undefined period of time it can incorporate the concept of eternity, thus the phrase ages of ages. However, it cannot be defined as eternity because that would limit it's use to only that which is unending and it is clearly used of things that end.
As I said, defining it as eternity doesn't make sense when that definition is applied to the text. Eternities of eternities doesn't make sense.
However, that aion is used of things that end proves that aionios fire can be a finite period of time. That fact is supported by Scripture which tells us that Gehenna will not burn for eternity, but will one day be made holy to the Lord
.
Wrong! Once again I thank you for your unsupported opinion. Virtually everything you posted is wrong, evidently filtered through whatever false teaching you have had for however many years.
.....Simply saying e.g. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" does not make it true. Had you bothered to actually read the 18 verses I quoted you might learn that those verses do not merely use "aion" a certain way but they define "aion." If someone is "incorruptible,""unchanging,""immortal" etc. and "aion/aionios" at the same time "aion/aionios" cannot mean a finite period of time. They can only mean "eternal" because they are paired with the unambiguous words "incorruptible,""unchanging,""immortal" etc.
.....You are ignoring the fact that I referred to 7 verses where God used hyperbole concerning Israel saying that Abraham's descendants would be more numerous than the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea. Abraham's descendants are not now and have never been more numerous than the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea. That is hyperbole."
.....Aion/aionios" can be and are used hyperbolically, i.e. hyperbole. Even in English although forever means everlasting/unending, people often use it for things that are not everlasting/unending. For example "I went to the store yesterday and I had to wait in line forever." "I ordered some parts online and it took forever to get here." Hyperbole!
 
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Butch5

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Wrong! Once again I thank you for your unsupported opinion. Virtually everything you posted is wrong, evidently filtered through whatever false teaching you have had for however many years.
.....Simply saying e.g. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" does not make it true.


And yet you keep repeating the same argument.


Had you bothered to actually read the 18 verses I quoted you might learn that those verses do not merely use "aion" a certain way but they define "aion." If someone is "incorruptible,""unchanging,""immortal" etc. and "aion/aionios" at the same time "aion/aionios" cannot mean a finite period of time. They can only mean "eternal" because they are paired with the unambiguous words "incorruptible,""unchanging,""immortal" etc.


I read the passages. And, as I said, aion can incorporate the concept of eternity, however, it cannot be defined as eternity. You can reject logic and common sense if you so choose. You can also reject the words of Jesus and Paul in favor of your commentaries if you so choose. However, doing so changes nothing. The fact is, the Scriptures use aion of finite periods of time. Again, you can reject that is you so choose. You state that aion cannot mean a finite period of time when it's used that way in Scripture.

.....You are ignoring the fact that I referred to 7 verses where God used hyperbole concerning Israel saying that Abraham's descendants would be more numerous than the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea. Abraham's descendants are not now and have never been more numerous than the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea. That is hyperbole."
.....Aion/aionios" can be and are used hyperbolically, i.e. hyperbole. Even in English although forever means everlasting/unending, people often use it for things that are not everlasting/unending. For example "I went to the store yesterday and I had to wait in line forever." "I ordered some parts online and it took forever to get here." Hyperbole!

Here, once again, you've destroyed your own argument. If aion and aionios can be used hyperbolically, we can say that aionios fire is hyperbole and thus not an eternal burning.
 
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Der Alte

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And yet you keep repeating the same argument.
I read the passages. And, as I said, aion can incorporate the concept of eternity, however, it cannot be defined as eternity. You can reject logic and common sense if you so choose. You can also reject the words of Jesus and Paul in favor of your commentaries if you so choose. However, doing so changes nothing. The fact is, the Scriptures use aion of finite periods of time. Again, you can reject that is you so choose. You state that aion cannot mean a finite period of time when it's used that way in Scripture.
Here, once again, you've destroyed your own argument. If aion and aionios can be used hyperbolically, we can say that aionios fire is hyperbole and thus not an eternal burning.
Still wrong and still doing nothing but giving your unsupported opinion. Do you understand what the word "defines" means? I provided verses which "define" "aion/aoionios."
They do this by pairing "aion/aionios" with unambiguous words such as "immortal." "immortality" "incorruptible""unchangeable."
Something which is "Immortal," "immortality,""incorruptible,""unchangeable" cannot be for a finite period at the same time.
.....Now if you want to show conclusively that "aion/aionios" means "age(s)," i.e. a finite period of time, and nothing else, then you must show verses where "aion/aionios" is paired with other words which mean a finite period, similar to what I have done. But I will inform you right now you cannot do so there are no such verses. I have looked. Unlike the verses I provided all you will be able to do is point to verses where "aion/aionios" refers to something which cannot be literally "eternal/eternity" i.e. hyperbole.
.....There were literal foxes during Jesus' time but Herod was not one although Jesus called him that. Hyperbole! There was a literal satan at the time of Jesus but Peter was not him although Jesus called him that. Hyperbole! There was literal thunder at the time of Jesus but James and John were not literally sons of thunder although Jesus called them that. Hyperbole. The descendants of Abraham are not literally more numerous than the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea although God said they would be, seven times. Hyperbole.
.....No in the verses I posted "aion/aionios" cannot be hyperbole because they are paired with unambiguous words like "incorruptible.""unchanging,""immortal,""immortality."
 
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Butch5

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Still wrong and still doing nothing but giving your unsupported opinion. Do you understand what the word "defines" means? I provided verses which "define" "aion/aoionios."
They do this by pairing "aion/aionios" with unambiguous words such as "immortal." "immortality" "incorruptible""unchangeable."
Something which is "Immortal," "immortality,""incorruptible,""unchangeable" cannot be for a finite period at the same time.


This is a logical fallacy known as reification. Verses cannot define a word, that requires a mind. Verses are simply a collection of words. It's not the verses that are defining the word, it's you. And your interpretation doesn't fit with the word's usage in Scripture

.....Now if you want to show conclusively that "aion/aionios" means "age(s)," i.e. a finite period of time, and nothing else, then you must show verses where "aion/aionios" is paired with other words which mean a finite period, similar to what I have done. But I will inform you right now you cannot do so there are no such verses. I have looked. Unlike the verses I provided all you will be able to do is point to verses where "aion/aionios" refers to something which cannot be literally "eternal/eternity" i.e. hyperbole.

It seems you're not paying attention. What I said was that aion cannot mean eternity. I didn't say it only means a finite period of time. As a matter of fact I've stated twice now that it can incorporate the idea of eternity, thus the phrase, the ages of the ages. Aion is an unspecified period of time. It was used to translate the Hebrew word Olam which means, what can be seen to the horizon. That's not eternity.

.....There were literal foxes during Jesus' time but Herod was not one although Jesus called him that. Hyperbole! There was a literal satan at the time of Jesus but Peter was not him although Jesus called him that. Hyperbole! There was literal thunder at the time of Jesus but James and John were not literally sons of thunder although Jesus called them that. Hyperbole. The descendants of Abraham are not literally more numerous than the stars of the heaven and the sands of the sea although God said they would be, seven times. Hyperbole.
.....No in the verses I posted "aion/aionios" cannot be hyperbole because they are paired with unambiguous words like "incorruptible.""unchanging,""immortal,""immortality."

And since aionios can be used as hyperbole, we can say that it isn't necessarily a fire that burns eternally.
 
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Butch5

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Here are words from Jesus that show plainly that aion cannot be defined as eternity.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;1
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt. 13:36-43 KJV)

The word "world" which is bolded is the word aion. The end of the age, not the end of the world. This passage cannot be understood if you translate aion as eternity. Jesus said, at the end of the age, the wicked would be gathered together and THEN the righteous will shine forth. Eternity doesn't end. You can't have a period of time after eternity. Yet Jesus clearly indicates that there is a period of time after the end of the age when He says THEN, the righteous shall shine forth. The righteous aren't going to shine forth after eternity.
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q: "What is the "Second Death" " ( a term used only in Revelation)

A: (using only Revelation)

Revelation 20:14b...This is the "second death", the "lake of fire".

Both terms are literal decriptions of an eternal spiritual realm.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the "lake that burns with fire and brimstone", which is the "second death".”

Again: Both terms are literal decriptions of an eternal spiritual realm.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes (temptation preventing salvation)will not be hurt by the "second death".’

This represents a literal spiritual truth given to the "churches".

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the "first resurrection"; (BELIEVERS)over these the "second death" has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (The Millenial Reign of Jesus: KING of kings, on an actual throne in Jerusalem. A NEW and different kingdom, but not the FINAL kingdom"

This represents a literal spiritual truth of a description of the 1000 years while the spirit-beings of satan/followers are spiritually bound.

The "lake of fire" is a REAL and LITERAL spiritual realm eternally SEPARATED from the REAL and LITERAL heavenly realm.
The spiritual occupants of each eternal spiritual realm are clearly and literally described in the Bible:

Lake of Fire: "unholy 3" (satan + anti-christ + "false prophet") + unbelievers + concepts of "Death" and "Hades".

HEAVEN REALMS:TRI-UNE GOD + ANGELS + TRUE SAVED BELIEVERS.

SPIRIT is IMMORTAL and ETERNAL..
Only the mortal Body/Soul combo of Man "perishes".

The REAL and LITERAL spiritual words of Jesus the God-Man:

John 3:16 (all NASB)
16 “For God so (unconditionally) loved the world (kosmos), that He gave His only begotten (not made,unique) Son,
that whoever believes (spirit-led FAITH) IN Him shall not "perish", but have ETERNAL (spiritual) life.

perish...GREEK 622...apollymi...destroy, die, lose, mar (in context: lose salvation/eternal life)

Matthew 25:46...JESUS' Prophecy of the Judgment of the NATIONS{ethnos}
These (unbelieving goat NATIONS {ethnoS}) will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but
the righteous (believing sheep NATIONS {ethnoS}) into ETERNAL (spiritual) life.”

punishment...Greek 2851...kolasis...I.correction...penalty

eternal...Greek 166...aiōnios...I.without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; everlasting

Infinity/Eternity are a LOOOOng time...especially when you get near the end...Woody Allen

Matthew 13...Jesus' parable of wheat/tares EXPLAINED
37b the good seed (wheat=believers), these are the sons of the kingdom;
and the tares (weeds=unbelievers) are the sons of the evil one...
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels,
and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the "furnace {LAKE?} of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.(conscious reactions)
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears,let him hear.
 
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Mark Corbett

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OP: Q: "What is the "Second Death" " ( a term used only in Revelation)
A: (using only Revelation)
Revelation 20:14b...This is the "second death", the "lake of fire".
Both terms are literal decriptions of an eternal spiritual realm.

You say that "second death" is a literal description.

This raises some more questions.
What does "second" literally mean? We probably all agree on that. But, in this context, what is the "first death"?

Another question is: What does "death" literally mean?

I tried to address this question in a post on my blog. Here is an excerpt (lightly modified by deleting some material):

An Additional Possible Point of Confusion

Most Bible-believing Christians, including myself, believe that a part of us (usually called our “soul” or our “spirit”) consciously lives in God’s presence in between the time we die and the time when we are resurrected. Because we believe that a part of us lives on after death, there is a possibility that some might think that the word “death” in the Bible does not mean the complete loss of all ability to feel, think, or be aware of anything. However, when the Bible speaks of death prior to the final judgment it is focused on what happens to our bodies, as these two verses clearly demonstrate:

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Notice that the part of us that is dead when we die is “the body”. And of course, our dead body will no longer feel, think, or be aware of anything. Also notice that while separation of soul and body occurs at the time of death, death does not mean “separation”. Otherwise, the spirit would be as equally dead as the body! We see the same truth here:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

The part of Jesus that was put to death was his body, and in between Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday, the dead body of Jesus did not feel anything and was not aware of anything.

Of course, after the final judgment, both the body and soul of the unsaved will experience the same fate (Matthew 10:28).

The Literal Meaning of “Death” in the Bible

Like the word “mountain”, the word “death” is something that all people have a basic understanding of because all people have seen it. Even children have seen many dead animals, and most of us have seen the dead bodies of people. The basic meaning of death when speaking of any person is that all the essential biological activities of the person have permanently ceased (when we say “permanently”, we mean that short of God’s miraculous intervention they have ceased and there is no reasonable expectation that they could resume). These biological activities include breathing, circulating blood, and also include the ability to be conscious and feel and think. Everyone knows that if someone can still feel and think, they are not “literally dead”.

This commonsense, literal meaning of death is also the literal meaning of death in the Bible. The context of the following verses makes clear that when they use the word “death” (the same word used in the phrase “the second death”) they are referring to literal, physical death:

Matthew 10:21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

John 11:13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

Acts 13:28 Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed.

Philippians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

There are many more examples. Here is a partial list of more examples where “death” is used with its normal, literal meaning in the New Testament:

Matthew 15:4, Matthew 20:18, Matthew 26:66, Luke 2:26, Luke 22:33, Luke 23:15, Luke 23:22, John 21:19, Acts 23:29, Acts 25:11, Acts 26:31, Acts 28:18, Romans 8:38, Philippians 2:27, Hebrews 7:23, Hebrews 9:16

Just as in the rest of the New Testament, in the book of Revelation the word “death” is used with its basic, literal meaning:

Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor's crown.

Revelation 9:6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Revelation 12:11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

In the verses above, to define death as “eternal torment” would be absurd. Jesus is not asking the Christians in Smyrna to be faithful to Him even if they are eternally tormented, people will not seek eternal torment, and we do not overcome the devil by a willingness to accept eternal torment. The fact that the simple, plain, literal meaning of “death” is used commonly throughout the Bible including in Revelation should not be forgotten when we read about a “second death”.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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A lot in the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is based on some mis translation also. Aionios, is sometimes translated as forever, when it cannot mean that. The ETC crowd often points to Jesus' use of aionios fire, translated eternal fire. However, Jude give us an example of aionios fire and it's not still burning. Jude said that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of aionios fire. Anyone can go to the Middle East and see that those two cities are not still burning.
Good post. YLT uses age/s and age-during it his translation [one of the few that do]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
Strong's Number G166 matches the Greek αἰώνιος (aiōnios),
which occurs 71 times in 69 verses in the Greek concordance

Rev 14:6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during

Here are examples of his translating "aion" as "age" or ages. Pretty interesting:

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages amen.
And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

touV aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Beast ....................

eiV <1519> aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

eiV touV aiwnaV twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>
Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet. And they shall be being tormented of day and of night into the Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 22:5 And night not is being there and need not they are having of a lamp and light of sun. That Lord the God shall be lighting them, and they shall reigning into the Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>
 
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