Bible Myth #3 We are all sinners

[RC1970]

not all who sin are sinners.

This is a non sequitur. Please provide some Scripture that deals directly with this concept "not all who sin are sinners".

 

[Peter J Barban]

I just found an article that covers all that we have talked about at a web page called canon fodder. Perhaps that author will make this position clear.

Here is a sample from canon fodder:
"Throughout the letters of the New Testament, the people of God are called lots of things. They are the “elect” (1 Pet 1:1), “faithful brothers” (Col 1:2), “beloved” (1 John 2:7), “children of God” (1 John 3:2), a “holy nation” (1 Pet 2:9), and most of all they are called “saints.”

Conspicuously absent from this list is the term “sinners.” There is no place I am aware of where the church, the people of God, are collectively called “sinners.” Moreover, an argument can be made that there is no instance in the New Testament where a believer is referred to as a “sinner.” The closest is Paul’s well-known reference to himself as the “foremost” (or “chief”) of sinners in 1 Tim 1:15. But, the context makes it plain that Paul is using this terminology to refer to his old life as a persecutor of the church. He says, “formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent” (1:13)."

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Saying "I am not a sinner and cannot be a sinner." is akin to committing adultery in your heart, because it is the first step to rationalizing away every sin we commit. After all, if we define ourselves as incapable of sinning, then nothing we do could be a sin.

 

[Peter J Barban]

After all, if we define ourselves as incapable of sinning, then nothing we do could be a sin.

No one on this thread is guilty of such a charge.

What you fail to comprehend is that one can sin, that is, commit an act against God's will, and yet not be called a sinner, that is, one whose nature is in rebellion against God's will. For God calls us holy, that is, our born again (regenerated) nature is in harmony with God's will.

Set aside the myths that you have learned and see that the Bible calls Christians "holy" numerous times but it never calls Christians "sinners".

So saying a Christian a "sinner" is an unbiblical myth.

Sin refers to the act.
Sinner refers to the nature of the actor.
They are not synonymous in the Bible

Understand to meaning of Ephesians 5:3 "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

Paul says God's people are holy, yet he must admonish them not to sin. And in fact, Paul's letters are full of the sins of God's holy people. So logically, we must conclude that you can sin while being holy.

PS. If one claims that Paul doesn't really mean God's people are really holy, then one must also claim that Paul's letters aren't reliable for learning the truth about God and man.

 

[pescador]

Saying "I am not a sinner and cannot be a sinner." is akin to committing adultery in your heart, because it is the first step to rationalizing away every sin we commit. After all, if we define ourselves as incapable of sinning, then nothing we do could be a sin.

It most definitely is not "akin to committing adultery in your heart". That is stretching it beyond reason. You are exaggerating; the old "slippery slope" backsliding argument.

One we have died to our old sinful nature and have been born again we can never again be referred to as sinners. Sinners are those who exist outside of Christ. Only. One cannot be in Christ and be a sinner, since he is sinless and we are part of his body.

Of course we are capable of sinning, as we are not yet perfect while we are in our earthly bodies. We are guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't know a single Christian who wants to sin, but if we do sin we are forgiven, otherwise Christ's death means nothing.

 

[Servadac]

Romans 3 confirms my message: Romans 3: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

In Jesus, we are justified by faith and made righteous. Christians are righteous saints, not unrighteous sinners.

You seem to be stressing the result with "righteous saints", that is our position before God. Whereas the expression "saved sinners" refers to what happened to us: we were sinners and yet are saved by grace. Is this not just a matter of emphasis? It seems to me that are rightfully called both.

 

[Peter J Barban]

You seem to be stressing the result with "righteous saints", that is our position before God. Whereas the expression "saved sinners" refers to what happened to us: we were sinners and yet are saved by grace. Is this not just a matter of emphasis? It seems to me that are rightfully called both.

Two issues:
- I agree that we were sinners -that is according to the Bible. But now we are not sinners. We are holy - that is also according to the Bible. To say that we can be saved and sinners at the same time - that is an unbiblical myth that many, many people believe.

- Positional righteousness is not a biblical idea. It was a compromise invented by theologians who did not believe the Bible when it says that Christians holy. I reject that compromise. Christians can not be positionally righteous and sinners at the same time. The Bible says that God's people are holy. Either we are or we are not.

 

[Servadac]

You wrote: Christians can not be positionally righteous and sinners at the same time.

I agree with that. To express our new position therefore we can be called "saved" or "justified" sinners. And yes, we are "holy" since we "were dead in sins" but now "by grace we are saved" (Eph. 2:5). No quarrel with that. But I think you exaggerate the importance of what you are saying by taking the expression "saved sinners" to mean that we remain as we were, be "sinners" essentially, and then salvation would be just an unimportant addition. That is not what is usually meant by it, I believe. It means that we are still wrestling with the old human nature and not completely free from sin, though it does no longer reign over us. Occasional, unintentional sin is still part of our present imperfect state. And I always thought that exactly that was meant by the phrase "saved sinners". I do know however people who take the expression "saved sinner" to mean that salvation is only a matter of status, and there is no transformation involved. I agree with you that such an interpretation of the phrase would be heretical, since it implies that there is no true rebirth and justification would be "merely" declarative and not effective as well (in sanctification).

 

[miknik5]

I can find a number of verses that call Christian saints. Can anyone find a verse that calls Christians sinners?

If we are perfect, there is no need for the work of sanctification and the ONE who makes men holy

And that work is being done in the saints

 

[brinny]

In the same message as Bible Myth #2, my pastor said that we are all sinners. He based his evidence on
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ. The Bible does not call Christians "sinners" as it does the unsaved. Instead, the Bible calls Christians "saints" (from the Greek word hagios) or holy ones:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The NIV obscures this idea by using different terms such as "God's people" instead of the traditional word saint:
Philippians 4:21 Greet all God's people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings.

Even so, the meaning is there - God's people are saints/holy ones. Unfortunately, we are saints who sin. God's holy people still sin as Paul's letters make abundantly clear. Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

Bottom line: if you are in the faith, you are a saint, not a sinner. There is no such thing as a saved sinner.

Saints "sin".

I agree.

Ok, i think i just got the point of your post.

Thank you, and God bless you.

 

[miknik5]

No one on this thread is guilty of such a charge.

What you fail to comprehend is that one can sin, that is, commit an act against God's will, and yet not be called a sinner, that is, one whose nature is in rebellion against God's will. For God calls us holy, that is, our born again (regenerated) nature is in harmony with God's will.

Set aside the myths that you have learned and see that the Bible calls Christians "holy" numerous times but it never calls Christians "sinners".

So saying a Christian a "sinner" is an unbiblical myth.

Sin refers to the act.
Sinner refers to the nature of the actor.
They are not synonymous in the Bible

Understand to meaning of Ephesians 5:3 "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

Paul says God's people are holy, yet he must admonish them not to sin. And in fact, Paul's letters are full of the sins of God's holy people. So logically, we must conclude that you can sin while being holy.

PS. If one claims that Paul doesn't really mean God's people are really holy, then one must also claim that Paul's letters aren't reliable for learning the truth about God and man.

Blood made clean what apart from that blood (between GOD and man) would be unclean

We're the high priests clean prior to their entering in

Or did they have to first offer up a sacrifice before they entered in?

Did GOD see their flesh?

Or did HE see their covering garment?

 

[miknik5]

In the Breast pockets of the high priests (those temporal mediators between GOD and man) they carried incense as a pleasing aroma before GOD


Are we that pleasing aroma before GOD because of ourselves or because of CHRIST who covers us?

 

[miknik5]

You wrote: Christians can not be positionally righteous and sinners at the same time.

I agree with that. To express our new position therefore we can be called "saved" or "justified" sinners. And yes, we are "holy" since we "were dead in sins" but now "by grace we are saved" (Eph. 2:5). No quarrel with that. But I think you exaggerate the importance of what you are saying by taking the expression "saved sinners" to mean that we remain as we were, be "sinners" essentially, and then salvation would be just an unimportant addition. That is not what is usually meant by it, I believe. It means that we are still wrestling with the old human nature and not completely free from sin, though it does no longer reign over us. Occasional, unintentional sin is still part of our present imperfect state. And I always thought that exactly that was meant by the phrase "saved sinners". I do know however people who take the expression "saved sinner" to mean that salvation is only a matter of status, and there is no transformation involved. I agree with you that such an interpretation of the phrase would be heretical, since it implies that there is no true rebirth and justification would be "merely" declarative and not effective as well (in sanctification).

Mortality has to be swallowed up in immortality

And sanctification isn't so much an active work as it is a passive work

A be still and know that I am GOD
More often we want to justify ourselves. We want to do in our flesh more than we are called to do

And in this, we are more interested in our own self declared righteousness than the perfect, holy, unbiased, impartial righteousness of GOD which says your will LORD and not my own

 

[Peter J Barban]

If we are perfect, there is no need for the work of sanctification and the ONE who makes men holy

Surprisingly, in the Bible, holy does not mean perfect (mature or complete)

The Bible teaches all these points as true:
1. Holiness is relationship based.
2. Perfection is a state of being.
3. God's people we are holy now, and we must press on to maturity.
4. We can grow in holiness (as we grow closer to God)

 

[miknik5]

Surprisingly, in the Bible, holy does not mean perfect (mature or complete)

The Bible teaches all these points as true:
1. Holiness is relationship based.
2. Perfection is a state of being.
3. God's people we are holy now, and we must press on to maturity.
4. We can grow in holiness (as we grow closer to God)

Then did GOD mean two different things when HE said:

Be holy as I am holy

Be perfect as my father in Heaven is perfect


It means showing holy, perfect, unbiased, impartial righteousness in all situations and circumstances because we are conscious of who we serve

 

[miknik5]

Surprisingly, in the Bible, holy does not mean perfect (mature or complete)

The Bible teaches all these points as true:
1. Holiness is relationship based.
2. Perfection is a state of being.
3. God's people we are holy now, and we must press on to maturity.
4. We can grow in holiness (as we grow closer to God)

Who is going to keep us blameless body soul and spirit in that day?

And like David, are you aware of your hidden faults?

 

[miknik5]

What is your expounding of 1 Corinthians 4

Namely Paul no longer judging himself but knowing that this did not make him innocent

That it's THE LORD who will judge

 

[Peter J Barban]

And like David, are you aware of your hidden faults?

Sure am. Today I started meditating on Undetected Spiritual Pride by Jonathan Edwards.
Undetected Spiritual Pride by Jonathan Edwards

 

[Peter J Barban]

Namely Paul no longer judging himself but knowing that this did not make him innocent

I consider this consistent with Paul's teaching that Christians are saints who can still sin. And this sin is determined by God not ourselves or our community.

 

[miknik5]

Sure am. Today I started meditating on Undetected Spiritual Pride by Jonathan Edwards.
Undetected Spiritual Pride by Jonathan Edwards

You meditated?


Please explain to me meditation
And who Jonathan Edwards is?