Bible Myth #3 We are all sinners

[Peter J Barban]

In the same message as Bible Myth #2, my pastor said that we are all sinners. He based his evidence on
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ. The Bible does not call Christians "sinners" as it does the unsaved. Instead, the Bible calls Christians "saints" (from the Greek word hagios) or holy ones:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The NIV obscures this idea by using different terms such as "God's people" instead of the traditional word saint:
Philippians 4:21 Greet all God's people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings.

Even so, the meaning is there - God's people are saints/holy ones. Unfortunately, we are saints who sin. God's holy people still sin as Paul's letters make abundantly clear. Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

Bottom line: if you are in the faith, you are a saint, not a sinner. There is no such thing as a saved sinner.

 

[RC1970]

In the same message as Bible Myth #2, my pastor said that we are all sinners. He based his evidence on
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ. The Bible does not call Christians "sinners" as it does the unsaved. Instead, the Bible calls Christians "saints" (from the Greek word hagios) or holy ones:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The NIV obscures this idea by using different terms such as "God's people" instead of the traditional word saint:
Philippians 4:21 Greet all God's people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings.

Even so, the meaning is there - God's people are saints/holy ones. Unfortunately, we are saints who sin. God's holy people still sin as Paul's letters make abundantly clear. Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

Bottom line: if you are in the faith, you are a saint, not a sinner. There is no such thing as a saved sinner.

So you think Martin Luther was wrong and we are not "Simul Justus et Peccator"?

 

[Tolworth John]

May be you should read romans ch 3.
In it Paul explains that there are no rightous people, that everyone has sinned and that we are save through faith in Jesus.
We are saved sinners.
Saved because of Jesus.
Sinners because that is our nature, none of us stop sinning, we all need to constantly return to Jesus for forgiveness.
As Paul wrote, 'the good that I want to do I don't do, while the EVIL I don't want to do I do.'
That applies to all of us.

 

[Albion]

In the same message as Bible Myth #2, my pastor said that we are all sinners. He based his evidence on
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ.

The pastor's right about this, Peter. We are redeemed by Christ's sacrifice and the gift of faith. We are forgiven, but we are not made perfect. Just forgiven. Perfection/sinlessness comes in the next life.

 

[RC1970]

May be you should read romans ch 3.
In it Paul explains that there are no rightous people, that everyone has sinned and that we are save through faith in Jesus.
We are saved sinners.
Saved because of Jesus.
Sinners because that is our nature, none of us stop sinning, we all need to constantly return to Jesus for forgiveness.
As Paul wrote, 'the good that I want to do I don't do, while the EVIL I don't want to do I do.'
That applies to all of us.

Romans 7 would be more on point, but it wouldn't hurt to review all of Romans.

 

[Peter J Barban]

May be you should read romans ch 3.

Romans 3 confirms my message: Romans 3: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

In Jesus, we are justified by faith and made righteous. Christians are righteous saints, not unrighteous sinners.

 

[Tolworth John]

Romans 7 would be more on point, but it wouldn't hurt to review all of Romans.

And where do you think the quote of Paul is from?

Romans 7 just continues the same facts. We are sinners saved by grace.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I can find a number of verses that call Christian saints. Can anyone find a verse that calls Christians sinners?

 

[Albion]

In Jesus, we are justified by faith and made righteous. Christians are righteous saints, not unrighteous sinners.

They're made righteous but still capable of sinning. Any disciple is classified, in Scripture, as a "saint," so the use of that word doesn't indicate anything as concerns sin or lack of it.

 

[Tolworth John]

Romans 3 confirms my message: Romans 3: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

In Jesus, we are justified by faith and made righteous. Christians are righteous saints, not unrighteous sinners.

No we are sinners saved by grace. Since you became a Christian have you ever stopped sinning?

Do remember 1John1 v8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[Hank77]

Even so, the meaning is there - God's people are saints/holy ones. Unfortunately, we are saints who sin. God's holy people still sin as Paul's letters make abundantly clear. Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

I understand what you are saying in the OP and completely agree with you. Maybe some others here should take more notice of this paragraph from your OP.
They keep telling you something that you already stated.

 

[Albion]

Good point, Hank. However, later posts by the same member clearly say the opposite, so who's to know what's going on with this??

 

[Hank77]

Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

1 Corinthians 6 is a good of example of Paul preaching this before and after this verse....
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Hank77]

Good point, Hank. However, later posts by the same member clearly say the opposite, so who's to know what's going on with this??

I don't see anywhere that this poster claims that Christians do not sin.

 

[HereIStand]

Interesting discussion. The simultaneously justified and sinful concept (which I hold to) seems to be a point of difference between Catholic and Lutheran theology. Sometime ago, in reference to ongoing dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics over justification, I came across this,

1. The major difficulties preventing an affirmation of total consensus between the parties on the theme of Justification arise in paragraph 4.4 The Justified as Sinner (nn. 28-1,0 ). Even taking into account the differences, legitimate in themselves, that come from different theological approaches to the content of faith, from a Catholic point of view the title is already a cause of perplexity. According, indeed, to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in baptism everything that is really sin is taken away, and so, in those who are born anew there is nothing that is hateful to God (3). It follows that the concupiscence that remains in the baptised is not, properly speaking, sin. For Catholics, therefore, the formula "at the same time righteous and sinner", as it is explained at the beginning of n. 29 ("Believers are totally righteous, in that God forgives their sins through Word and Sacrament ...Looking at themselves ... however, they recognize that they remain also totally sinners. Sin still lives in them..."), is not acceptable.

 

[Albion]

I don't see anywhere that this poster claims that Christians do not sin.

Having looked more closely at the postings, I think you are right. But when I read this (as one example):

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ. The Bible does not call Christians "sinners" as it does the unsaved. Instead, the Bible calls Christians "saints" (from the Greek word hagios) or holy ones

It sure looks like he's saying something else.

(The purple highlighting is my doing)

 

[Peter J Barban]

Christians are righteous and holy, not because of our actions but based on our relationship with God. This is the same way that the ground around the burning bush was made holy - based on the presence of God. We are made holy because God lives in us.

Also, by definition, when we are born again, our spirit is raised from death to life. Our very nature changes to become holy, the only proper vessel for the Holy Spirit which comes to live in us.

So, we are twice holy, first by our new nature and second by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Yet, in spite of our holiness, Christians can and do sin. Even so, in our sin, the Bible never calls us sinners. It calls us holy while also telling us to put away our sin and conform to Christ.

 

[Peter J Barban]

To make things perfectly clear: according to the Bible, not all who sin are sinners. Only those of the original, unregenerate nature are sinners. The word sinner describes one's nature, not one's action.

So stop saying that all who sin are sinners. That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[Albion]

With all due respect (really) to you and Hank, I think that that post only muddies the water more.

 

[HereIStand]

To make things perfectly clear: according to the Bible, not all who sin are sinners. Only those of the original, unregenerate nature are sinners. The word sinner describes one's nature, not one's action.

So stop saying that all who sin are sinners. That is not what the Bible teaches.

So, when Paul referred to himself as "chief" if sinners, he was referring to himself as a non-Christian?