Sola Scriptura?

[Albion]

Perhaps our experience in our regions is different. My experience of the Protestant Church population matches this pretty closely, though the amount of Protestants is a significantly high amount among Christians in my area.

When you say that X is what your personal experience has been, or that in your region it seems to be X...

I usually let it go. It is what it is.

When it's said that "Protestants believe" or something about the "Protestant Church" (which doesn't exist), however, what's being said is -- quite obviously -- about more than just local exceptions or personal impressions.

 

[All4Christ]

If you use the more limited definition of Protestant, i.e. the mainline Protestant churches you are right. But if you use the broader term then that isn't true.

Agreed. Considering I came from a Pentecostal background - and considered myself to be Protestant, my view includes Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Anabaptists, Baptists, Presbyterians and more

 

[Albion]

If you use the more limited definition of Protestant, i.e. the mainline Protestant churches you are right. But if you use the broader term then that isn't true.

If we talk about Protestants--just that...Protestants. If we talk about Protestants, or the Protestant Church [sic], or Protestantism, we are generalizing. BUT if so, you CANNOT take some minority opinion or organization or even stray individuals--as is often done on these forums--and make them seem to be typical of Protestantism.

I hope that's clear enough.

 

[Erose]

If we talk about Protestants--just that...Protestants. If we talk about Protestants, or the Protestant Church [sic], or Protestantism, we are generalizing. BUT if so, you CANNOT take some minority opinion or organization or even stray individuals--as is often done on these forums--and make them seem to be typical of Protestantism.

I hope that's clear enough.

So main-line Protestants. Fair enough. Because when you start adding the Baptists, and all the evangelical churches, then your position would start to become very doubtful.

 

[Albion]

No, it would not. And that was part of what I was trying to explain.

 

[Erose]

No, it would not. And that was part of what I was trying to explain.

 

[All4Christ]

Perhaps it would help understand others' viewpoints when considering how many of us used to be non-mainline Protestants an / or Evangelicals who considered that to be a Protestant Church. Many of us used the broader definition for most of our lives.

 

[Albion]

No one has denied that such churches are Protestant churches.

 

[Erose]

Perhaps it would help understand others' viewpoints when considering how many of us used to be non-mainline Protestants an / or Evangelicals who considered that to be a Protestant Church. Many of us used the broader definition for most of our lives.

I'm in agreement with Albion, that just blanketing all non-Catholic/Orthodox churches as Protestant, without either a prefix or suffix, really doesn't help the situation in the discussing this matter. IMO there are more significant differences between the main-line Protestant churches and Evangelical Churches than there are between main-line and Catholic/Orthodox, even though they use much of the same language and adhere to the five Solas. An Evangelical understanding of the five Solas is significantly different IMO than how a Lutheran understands them, for example.

 

[dzheremi]

Mainline Protestants are now a minority among Protestants in America (where I, and I'm assuming many of you, live), and have been for about twenty years now. As of 1998, they were a minority of the total American Protestant population, at 48% (down from 55% in 1973). Things have not gotten better since then.

Given this, I honestly think the protestation (heh) that you can't take "splinter" groups as representative of Protestantism is not necessarily valid. Sure, if you are talking about taking individual independent churches (e.g., Ted's Church of the Very Bright Lights or something like that) as defining Protestantism, then that makes sense, but if you are looking across all of the bodies that define themselves as part of the Protestant tradition and taking a kind of aggregate approach, then that's totally valid to do, since the non-mainline/'splinter' groups from the clear majority. They may not all fit into the historical category of Protestant, but if they are the majority of Protestants in the place where you live, and have been for decades, then in a real operative sense, they are Protestantism, at least insofar as concerns your country.

Probably moving forward that's going to be even more the case, if current demographic trends hold.

 

[PeaceB]

If we talk about Protestants--just that...Protestants. If we talk about Protestants, or the Protestant Church [sic], or Protestantism, we are generalizing. BUT if so, you CANNOT take some minority opinion or organization or even stray individuals--as is often done on these forums--and make them seem to be typical of Protestantism.

I hope that's clear enough.

Yet you have no problem with frequently telling us all what the Catholic Church teaches, and refusing to provide any official sources to back your assertions when your errors are identified. I guess it is fine when you do it, but not so cool when others do.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm in agreement with Albion, that just blanketing all non-Catholic/Orthodox churches as Protestant, without either a prefix or suffix, really doesn't help the situation in the discussing this matter. IMO there are more significant differences between the main-line Protestant churches and Evangelical Churches than there are between main-line and Catholic/Orthodox, even though they use much of the same language and adhere to the five Solas. An Evangelical understanding of the five Solas is significantly different IMO than how a Lutheran understands them, for example.

Certain people are limiting this conversation to mainline Protestants. The thread OP did not reference just mainline Protestants.

My purpose of that statement is not to say that they have the same understanding of everything but to remind others that our background influences what we understand Protestant to mean.

That said, when we discuss Protestants - and don't specify mainline Protestants - we cannot say that the non-mainline Protestants are the minority. Honestly - statistically they are not the minority...case in point, the Pew study.

I consistently point out that the main-line vs Evangelical Protestants do not have the exact same understanding of Sola Scriptura - but they all are claiming to be Protestants, and mainline Protestants aren't the only ones that matter. They all claim to follow Sola Scriptura. We previously discussed in this thread that it is important to remember the difference between "solo" vs "sola" Scriptura - but even within the "sola" Scriptura, there is a wide amount of individualistic interpretation of Scripture.

FTR, I agree that many mainline are closer to Orthodox or Catholic than some of the Evangelical churches - but even some the mainline churches have groups within them that have strong evangelical influence.

I repeat - the non-mainline Protestants are not a minority, and they are relevant to the conversation. To say otherwise ignores a large population of the Christian world today.

 

[Erose]

Not having any statistics to back me up, from my experience true Sola Scriptura Christians are a minority in non-mainline Protestant churches. Most (if not all) Evangelical Protestants IMO are Solo Scripturist.

 

[All4Christ]

Not having any statistics to back me up, from my experience true Sola Scriptura Christians are a minority in non-mainline Protestant churches. Most (if not all) Evangelical Protestants IMO are Solo Scripturist.

Again, no matter the statostics of Sola vs solo, evangelical Protestants are not the minority. I don't have the time right now to pull up statistics, and that is not my point. It is however significantly wrong to say that mainline Protestants are the majority of Protestants in the common definition today.

Also, how much experience have you had in non-mainline Protestant churches?

 

[Erose]

Mainline Protestants are now a minority among Protestants in America (where I, and I'm assuming many of you, live), and have been for about twenty years now. As of 1998, they were a minority of the total American Protestant population, at 48% (down from 55% in 1973). Things have not gotten better since then.

Given this, I honestly think the protestation (heh) that you can't take "splinter" groups as representative of Protestantism is not necessarily valid. Sure, if you are talking about taking individual independent churches (e.g., Ted's Church of the Very Bright Lights or something like that) as defining Protestantism, then that makes sense, but if you are looking across all of the bodies that define themselves as part of the Protestant tradition and taking a kind of aggregate approach, then that's totally valid to do, since the non-mainline/'splinter' groups from the clear majority. They may not all fit into the historical category of Protestant, but if they are the majority of Protestants in the place where you live, and have been for decades, then in a real operative sense, they are Protestantism, at least insofar as concerns your country.

Probably moving forward that's going to be even more the case, if current demographic trends hold.

We will have to disagree on this matter. I get that in most categories that all main-line, evangelical, pentecostal Christians are thrown under the main category of Protestant, IMO this delude the word. The "Protestant" title has become like other common words (such as liberal and conservative) that for all intent and purposes have lost their original meaning, and have become more of a slur word than anything with meaning.

Protestants were called Protestant because of it evolved out of a movement to "protest" the Catholic Church. The far majority of those denominations labeled "Protestant" doesn't have that history. Perhaps they should be referred to as Protestant-Protestants?

 

[All4Christ]

We will have to disagree on this matter. I get that in most categories that all main-line, evangelical, pentecostal Christians are thrown under the main category of Protestant, IMO this delude the word. The "Protestant" title has become like other common words (such as liberal and conservative) that for all intent and purposes have lost their original meaning, and have become more of a slur word than anything with meaning.

Protestants were called Protestant because of it evolved out of a movement to "protest" the Catholic Church. The far majority of those denominations labeled "Protestant" doesn't have that history. Perhaps they should be referred to as Protestant-Protestants?

There are two definitions of Protestants:

Protestant
[prot-uh-stuh nt or for 4, 6, pruh-tes-tuh nt]
noun

1. any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church.
   
   
2. an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them.

Both include many evangelical churches. For example, Pentecosts come from the Wesleyan movement which came from he original Protestants.

 

[Erose]

Again, no matter the statostics of Sola vs solo, evangelical Protestants are not the minority. I don't have the time right now to pull up statistics, and that is not my point. It is however significantly wrong to say that mainline Protestants are the majority of Protestants.

Also, how much experience have you had in non-mainline Protestant churches?

No body said they were the minority. Albion in my discussion pointed out that he has a very limited definition of what Protestant is. By his definition, which is the only true Protestant churches are what we call main-line Protestant churches, then those Christians in that group that do not believe in the Real Presence IS the minority.

 

[All4Christ]

No body said they were the minority. Albion in my discussion pointed out that he has a very limited definition of what Protestant is. By his definition, which is the only true Protestant churches are what we call main-line Protestant churches, then those Christians in that group that do not believe in the Real Presence IS the minority.

Albion said they were the minority. I pointed out that most here do not hold that same definition of Protestant that he holds, so for many of us, those who hold to the real presence are the minority.

It is relevant as the OP did not specify mainline.

 

[Erose]

There are two definitions of Protestants:

Protestant
[prot-uh-stuh nt or for 4, 6, pruh-tes-tuh nt]
noun

1. any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church.
   
   
2. an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them.

Both include many evangelical churches. For example, Pentecosts come from the Wesleyan movement which came from he original Protestants.

I get that, the question I raised is does and should those definitions continue to apply, and make sense. I say they do not. The fallacy we make as Catholics and Orthodox is that we try to throw all the non-Catholic/Orthodox churches into the same pot and call them the same. It just doesn't work. There are just too many differences for that to be helpful.

 

[Erose]

Albion said they were the minority. I pointed out that most here do not hold that same definition of Protestant that he holds, so for many of us, those who hold to the real presence are the minority.

It is relevant as the OP did not specify mainline.

I get that, and I understand where you are coming from. I'm just saying that we non-Protestant (if you will) Christians change our mentality on this matter. Albion is a member of an Anglican denomination. In all reality he has more in common with our beliefs than lets say someone from a Baptist church. I think that should be respected and understood.