Does God Accept Imperfect Obedience?

AarontheStudent

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I like this, but the first Adam was created in perfect righteousness & holiness, fully capable of fulfilling God's command. 18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,.So now we are under the Law's curse, not because of our flesh, but because of sin! We need to be freed from the bondage of the Law! This is why Christ came to fulfill the Law perfectly through His righteousness in the flesh! He also condemned sin the flesh; 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Of course, here I should note Anabaptist churches reject the doctrine of total depravity, one of several teachings that separates us from being considered Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant in our Christian observance.
 
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pescador

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Being reconciled to God isn't an event. It is a result of the process explained in 1 John 1:9, which is required any time we fail to obey.

1 John 1 wasn't written to Christians. Read it.
 
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AarontheStudent

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1 John 1 wasn't written to Christians. Read it.

I don't think we can accurately testify as to whom the Holy Ghost meant to address when inspiring the work. It turns out, according to Paul, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when he said "baptize all nations in the name of God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost", and he meant exactly what he said, all nations, "the Jew first and then the Greek," as Paul put it.
 
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danstribe

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If you claim to be saved by your law keeping, please don't cheat by lowering the bar. The law is perfect and God demands perfection.
We are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved by the GIFT of God's Holy Spirit living in us. If we have the Spirit of Christ living in us then we will submit to God's perfect law by obeying it, but keeping in mind that it is CHRIST in us that is obeying, we are to allow His Spirit to obey through our body. When we do this, when we submit to the Spirit of Christ and allow Him to obey the law of God using us, the obedience is made perfect. Any imperfection that we cause is forgiven because we are under grace. So yes, the law of God must be kept with perfection which is what Christ does for the rest of our lives. We are His slaves now.
 
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ladodgers6

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Of course, here I should note Anabaptist churches reject the doctrine of total depravity, one of several teachings that separates us from being considered Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant in our Christian observance.
Please educate me. You guys reject TD. Do you guys reject the Fall? If not, what do you guys teach in relation to the Fall?
 
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disciple1

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Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?
Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?
Yes if you try to love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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Soyeong

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Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

It is explicitly clear from this verse that only doers of the Law will be justified, but that is not the same as saying that we become justified by doing the Law. Rather, it is the doers of the Law who will be justified because we have faith in God to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to guide us by grace in how to rightly live. Obedience to God has never been about being good enough to earn something, but always about demonstrating our faith and love, and thereby growing in a relationship with God. Nowhere does the OT require anyone to perfectly obey God's Law in order to become justified, but rather the Law itself comes with instructions for what to do when it is not perfectly obeyed. Nowhere does the OT contain anything like that people were doing such a great job of obeying the Law, but then they sinned once so now they won't be justified, so they don't have to bother obeying the Law any more. Rather, the constant refrain from every single prophet up to including Jesus was to repent from our sins and turn back to obedience to God. If the only purpose obedience to God's Law was to try to become justified through perfect obedience, then there would be no point in telling anyone to repent. According to Jeremiah 6:16-19 and Matthew 11:28-30, the Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls and trying to become justified by obeying the Law robs our souls of the rest that it was intended to give. So the issue of whether or not someone is saved has never been based on perfect obedience, but always on whether we continue to practice repentance by grace through faith. God wants our repentance, not our perfection, because it is He who supplies the perfection.
 
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Soyeong

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They fill the threads that we are active in. Push grace, and they push back with law.

Please explain your understanding of this verse:

Psalms 119:29 Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!
 
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Soyeong

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NO! God does not accept imperfect obedience.
The LORD substitutes the death of the LORD Jesus for our imperfect obedience.

It is why the law was temporary. The law could not accomplish the work of Christ.

The Law was given to instruct us how to live according to the attributes of God. For example, it teaches us how to reflect God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12). So the only way for instructions for how to live according to God's righteousness to be temporary is if God's righteousness is also temporary, but God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so therefore also are all of His righteous laws (Psalms 119:160). The Law could not accomplish the work of Christ because it was never given to accomplish that in the first place.
 
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pshun2404

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Does your obedience gain you acceptance before God? Is that why you said that you hope so?

One's acceptance by God does not depend on our obedience, but on the obedience of Christ! He fulfilled the Law and we are IN CHRIST. The Law written in stone does not save, it condemns. It makes us aware we are sinners in need of a Savior (which He provides in the efficacious work of Christ).
 
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Soyeong

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The Greek word translated into "righteous requirement" (δικαίωμα) would be better translated as justice here, in my opinion, but even that strays away from its definition in this usage: "an action deemed by God that, if not done, would be unrighteous; what is right."

In this sense, "righteous requirement" is best understood as describing a natural course of action, because one attribute of God is justness.

What I understand Paul saying here is this: the law becoming 'weakened by the flesh' refers to the law becoming more and more a work of man's hands rather than a work of God's breath. But since God is a just God, the law can be fulfilled inside of us and not outside of us through our works, because God breathes the Holy Ghost into our hearts when we accept Him.

Reading the rest of Romans and other works attributed to Paul will only support this.

The problem was not with God's righteousness or with His instructions for how to live according to His righteousness, but with us because we were hindered by the law of sin from meeting it, so the solution to the problem is not free us from needing to live according with God's righteous standard, but to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey God's Law and thereby meet its righteous requirement. I don't see how it makes sense to say that the law can be fulfilled because it that didn't involve outward outward obedience, then it would be abolish the law rather than fulfilling it. Furthermore, God is fully capable of causing our outside works to fulfill the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
 
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Soyeong

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One of the most amazing statements by the Apostle Paul is his indictment of the Galatian Christians for abandoning the Gospel. “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel,” Paul declared. As he stated so emphatically, the Galatians had failed in the crucial test of discerning the authentic Gospel from its counterfeits.

His words could not be more clear: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!” [Gal. 1:6-7]

This warning from the Apostle Paul, expressed in the language of the Apostle’s shock and grief, is addressed not only to the church in Galatia, but to every congregation in every age. In our own day — and in our own churches — we desperately need to hear and to heed this warning. In our own time, we face false gospels no less subversive and seductive than those encountered and embraced by the Galatians.

Read More

Why Moralism Is Not the Gospel - And Why So Many Christians Think It Is - AlbertMohler.com

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law is what reveals what things are sins that we should be repenting of, so repenting from our disobedience to God's Law is an integral part of the Gospel message. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so His Gospel message also involved repentance from sin, so to teach a Gospel that doesn't involve repentance from our disobedience to God's Law is to teach a counterfeit gospel. The issue Paul was dealing with in Galatia was with people who were teaching obedience to man-made works of law in order to become saved, so that is likewise a counterfeit gospel.
 
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Soyeong

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We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Pretty much everyone here agrees with that. Here is where we differ, a lot on here are ignoring Romans 11:6.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

That verse is a little hard to understand but I've heard it put like this: If it's daytime it's not nighttime and if it's nighttime it's not daytime and it can't be daytime and nighttime at the same time.

If it's grace it's not works and if it's works it's not grace and it can't be grace and works at the same time.

Basically what that is saying is if you're mixing your obedience with faith in Jesus' finished cross work to be saved you are going down the works road, not grace. The bridge is out on that road.

Can you please explain your understanding of these verses in light of what you just said?:

Psalms 119:29 Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
 
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Soyeong

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First, there is a vast difference between keeping "the law", and keeping Christ's commandments.
"The Law" ... usually references the Mosaic Law, which was fulfilled/completed/taken out of the way on Christ's cross.
Second, there is a vast difference between claiming to be "saved by obedience", and acknowledging that I CAN NOT be saved WITHOUT obedience AND forgiveness!
1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it, yet you interpret him as saying that he came to abolish it. Rather, he said he came to fulfill the Law and then proceeded to fulfill it six times by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should be. Furthermore, Galatians 5:14 says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, meaning that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did to complete it, but to obeying it as it should be obeyed. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which is obeying it as it should be obeyed, not to taking the Law of Christ out of the way. In addition, Romans 15:18-19 says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again does not mean to do away with it, but to causing it to be fully obeyed in word and in deed as it should be obeyed. Lastly, Jesus was sinless, which means that he at least taught to obey the Law by example even if he said nothing, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), so I don't see any reason to think that the Law of Christ was anything other than what he taught and lived out in accordance with God's Law.
 
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Soyeong

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Having not read the thread...

James 2:10-13
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Paraphrase: Abandon Judaism for Christianity

Forgive me...

It is beyond me how you can read James 2:1-13 and conclude that he was trying to get them to abandon Judaism, but rather he trying to encourage them to do a better job of obeying the Law more consistently by not showing favoritism.
 
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pescador

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I don't think we can accurately testify as to whom the Holy Ghost meant to address when inspiring the work. It turns out, according to Paul, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when he said "baptize all nations in the name of God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost", and he meant exactly what he said, all nations, "the Jew first and then the Greek," as Paul put it.

I don't understand what you're saying. Here is what John wrote...

"This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."

What is there not to understand about this? John says we are proclaiming this to you: what we have seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us, the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. Clearly John is delivering the gospel of Jesus Christ to people who have not heard it so that they can become Christians and have fellowship with 1) other Christians, 2) God, and 3) Jesus Christ.

How is it possible to misinterpret this?
 
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pescador

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First, there is a vast difference between keeping "the law", and keeping Christ's commandments.
"The Law" ... usually references the Mosaic Law, which was fulfilled/completed/taken out of the way on Christ's cross.
Second, there is a vast difference between claiming to be "saved by obedience", and acknowledging that I CAN NOT be saved WITHOUT obedience AND forgiveness!
1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1 was written to non-Christians. There is absolutely no need for Christians to confess our sins and beg for forgiveness! If we are not forgiven then Jesus died for nothing!
 
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AarontheStudent

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Please educate me. You guys reject TD. Do you guys reject the Fall? If not, what do you guys teach in relation to the Fall?

I can't really give an accurate answer, because there's a pretty wide range of ideas today, especially in Mennonite circles. Historically, anabaptist doctrine was sola scriptura, but doesn't appear to have been influenced much, if at all, by Calvin or Luther.

To answer your question from a traditional perspective, these passages from "Anabaptism and Mission" by William Shenk explain the anabaptist philosophy of sin:

"The nature of sin
The anabaptists believed in the fall of humankind and in the historical reality of original sin. They did not believe in Augustinian depravity. The cause of the fall is in the will, not the flesh. The flesh, said Balthasar Hubmaier, was destroyed in the fall and must perish; the soul was damaged and is destroyed by grace; the spirit remained upright as the image of God in humanity. The second Adam restored what had been destroyed by the first Adam, and more. Since Christ, humankind has had the capacity to be sensitive to good and evil in a way not possible before the fall ... Original sin, they believed, is not part of the essence of human nature. The fall did not destroy the nature of humankind, though corrupted it, and this is restored by the finished work of Christ."

Shenk goes on to explain:
"Children are the natural children of God; they have not fallen into disgrace because their will has not rebelled against their creator. ... They are born free from active sin and guilt by virtue of the atonement. The evil inclination is there, but is not counted against them for Christ's sake until it is expressed in deliberate wrong choices in the mature person."

Anyways if you're interested, the book is available to read online. Just google the title and it'll come up.

Shalom
 
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AarontheStudent

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I don't understand what you're saying. Here is what John wrote...

"This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."

What is there not to understand about this? John says we are proclaiming this to you: what we have seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us, the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. Clearly John is delivering the gospel of Jesus Christ to people who have not heard it so that they can become Christians and have fellowship with 1) other Christians, 2) God, and 3) Jesus Christ.

How is it possible to misinterpret this?

I wasn't there. The Jews misinterpreted it, according to the gospel itself, not me.
 
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