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Speak in Tongues - essential :

Ron Gurley

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"Acts of the Apostles" is a chronicle of the new "CHURCH" in transition. Any snippets or occurences therein should NOT be used to find a true doctrine.

Paul's letters to the "CHURCHES" are solid theological spirit-led TRUTHS about Jesus the Divine Messiah. Doctrine may be safely gleaned from them.
 
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DamianWarS

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"Acts of the Apostles" is a chronicle of the new "CHURCH" in transition. Any snippets or occurences therein should NOT be used to find a true doctrine.

Paul's letters to the "CHURCHES" are solid theological spirit-led TRUTHS about Jesus the Divine Messiah. Doctrine may be safely gleaned from them.

Most of these threads about this topic argue over the wrong details but you have brought up the focus. Since the manifestations of the HS in Acts need to be understood differently (as you have highlighted) then the real question is it responsible to develop doctrine from the book of Acts today?

The question comes down to was there a special dispensation of the HS to empower the early church or is the HS the same in action today as he was the day of pentecost. If there was a special dispensation of the HS is this supported by scripture? These are important questions to determine if after reading Acts I should expect the same thing.
 
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Ron Gurley

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RESPONSE TO POST#163:

Q1: "...is it responsible to develop doctrine from the book of Acts today?..."

A1: No. The "CHURCH" was new and in transtion. Multiple Missions all over the known world. Preaching / teaching to both Jew and Gentile. Miracles, signs, and wonders to authenticate the apostles as "men of God".
No established and accepted "liturgy". Struggles for leadership in the "CHURCH". ETC!

Q2: "...a special "dispensation" of (God the Holy Spirit).'

A2: No. God is unchanging and unchangeable (immutable).
His METHOD or "economy" of dealing with Man changed from OT to NT due to the historical event of Jesus the God-Man, come down from heaven to save Mankind.
 
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Biblicist

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That is a contradiction of the Word of God. Believe it if you feel like it, but you are wrong to do so. (1 Cor. 14:2)
As I have stated before, very few Pentecostals and charismatics believe that the unregenerate were given the Holy Spirit so that they could receive an interpretation of what the 120 were saying to the Father, if this had of occurred then Luke would have told us so.
 
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OP: "Speaking in "tongues"?

A1:
1 Corinthians 14:22 (NASB)
So then "tongues" are for a "sign", NOT to those who believe (saved) but to unbelievers; but "prophecy" is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.Therefore if the whole "church assembles" together and all speak in "tongues", and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
This passage certainly confuses many, where Paul's meaning remained unclear up until 1988 when Wayne Grudem (The Gift of Prophecy in the NT) pointed out that in 14:22 that the use of sign should be read as "So then tongues are negative sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers". All Paul was saying was that the unsaved and cessationist visitor will most likely be confused and upset when every one prays/sings in the Spirit all at once during times of praise and worship - so we are not to do it!

The miraculous "sign" gifts used by God to authenticate ~12-men as spirit-led MESSENGERS of the Gospel and TRUTH
(aka apostles) CEASED when the last of the original MSS of the Bible were "produced"...~100 AD.
This goes back to my first point, but tongues has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed intended 'sign' value to the unsaved, tongues is all about praying in the Spirit.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Unless tongues/"glossa" are in a REAL language understood by someone of a DIFFERENT language, it is of no value, spiritual or otherwise. To someone hearing it is gibberish. It is easliy counterfeited by man and demon.

"Praying in the spirit" is NOT "tongues"! (ALL NASB)

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all "filled with" (God) the Holy Spirit and began to speak the "word of God "with boldness.

Romans 8:26[ Our Victory in Christ ] In the same way (God) the (Holy) Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Jude 1:20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying IN (God) the Holy Spirit,
 
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DamianWarS

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Q1: "...is it responsible to develop doctrine from the book of Acts today?..."

A1: No. The "CHURCH" was new and in transtion. Multiple Missions all over the known world. Preaching / teaching to both Jew and Gentile. Miracles, signs, and wonders to authenticate the apostles as "men of God".
No established and accepted "liturgy". Struggles for leadership in the "CHURCH". ETC!

Q2: "...a special "dispensation" of (God the Holy Spirit).'

A2: No. God is unchanging and unchangeable (immutable).
His METHOD or "economy" of dealing with Man changed from OT to NT due to the historical event of Jesus the God-Man, come down from heaven to save Mankind.

Of course no one can dispute that the church was in its early developments and miracles, signs, and wonders would serve to authenticate the apostles but this doesn't answer the question. All you have brought up is what can plainly be inferred that no one disputes. What you fail to comment on is why this "economy" of the HS has changed or comment on scriptural support for this new economy of the HS.

The first letter of the Corinthians was written at about Acts 19. Are you suggesting this method of the HS changed somewhere after v7 and perhaps during the 2 years mentioned in v10? or did it continue differently for different areas or different people? When and why did it change and what are you basing this on?
 
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redleghunter

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I know there are doctrines that do not separate the baptism of the HS with the experience of salvation but it is important to point out that in Acts the baptism of the HS is shown as a separate experience from salvation and from water baptism.

Show me the doctrine in an epistle by an apostle and I will be convinced. As I stated Acts of the Apostles is an historic book showing the actions of the early church. It is not comprehensive. Acts points out the important events of how the church was started in word and power.

Acts 4 shows us a subsequent baptism of the HS for the original 120 present during pentecost manifested through special measure of boldness.

Of course and this happened for those present and who would the next day be out preaching the Gospel. This is a gift by the will of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8 shows that the early Samaritans accepted faith in Jesus Christ as they were "[water] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" but had not yet "received the Spirit". Although not specific in the text it is clear from the reaction from Simon that by the act of laying of of hands and prayer that something noticeable happened as Simon immediately offered money so that he could have this power too.

Again, you even mention it is not specific. However, Peter was told he would exercise the 'keys.' He did. Peter was at Pentecost, at Samaria and was present for the first Gentiles saved at the house of Cornelius. After this point there is only one account where hands are laid on for receiving the Holy Spirit. The keys were exercised, the gospel now in the hands of Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles.

In Acts 10 shows us the baptism of the HS being poured out to Cornelius and his household after Peter affirms salvation. Peter reports the "Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning"

Don't know how this supports your argument of a 'separate baptism of the Holy Spirit.'

The Gentiles heard, believed, received the Holy Spirit and were baptized. Sounds very familiar to me. They also received tongues as the Apostles did on Pentecost. Meaning they were speaking in a foreign language. As the first Gentiles to be filled with the Holy Spirit, I think tongues is a most important gift to spread the gospel.


These accounts in Acts do not show the HS giving out gifts each differently but rather like a blanket covering all and the results are the same for all. This is simply how the accounts of Acts shows the HS and I make no apologies that it does not following the rules laid out 1 Corinthians 12-14.

You are missing an important point. Acts is a historical book showing the early dealings and signs and wonders of the early church. Specific gifts were necessary in large quantities to move the Gospel through the Roman empire and beyond. What is reported by Luke are very important historical events. Can we derive doctrine from these events. Sure we can, but we must look to the entire NT for New Covenant doctrine. If we don't appeal to the Gospels and to the Epistles we are left trying to 'fill in the blanks' with the recorded historical events in Acts.

Therefore, we have Acts speak of spiritual gifts. However, not everyone is cited as receiving every gift nor specifically a certain gift. Nor does Acts speak of the many gifts recorded in other NT books.

Now we have teachings in the epistles which list out the gifts and the very same Paul who laid hands on people in Acts is the one who wrote most of the epistles. Paul goes into detail in 1 Corinthians 12-14 for a reason. He is directly addressing a church where there are multiple gifts and perhaps some abusing them or not using them for the edification for all. In those chapters he clearly states we are the Body of Christ and we have different functions. This is where (in the verses I quoted earlier) he says some are teachers and some speak in tongues and some interpret and some are apostles etc.

It is not an either/or, meaning Acts vs. 1 Corinthians. We must consider both and all of the NT.

Here is another consideration. What if I told you the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit before the day of Pentecost? That what they received on Pentecost and Acts 4 was "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:8). This was the fulfillment of the promise (on Pentecost) in Luke 24 where Jesus says the disciples would be "endued with power from on high" as they tarried in Jerusalem (on Pentecost).

The apostles (and those who were disciples present) received the Holy Spirit before the Ascension of Jesus Christ:

So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 22:21-22)

This was obviously before Pentecost.

Dr. John Piper, who is not a cessationist, has a very good sermon on what I posit above. Worth the read and a very good Acts study piece as well.

You Shall Receive Power Till Jesus Comes | Desiring God



As for the 3000 on the day of Pentecost the text only says they were baptised but not baptised by the HS so it would be irresponsible to look at this as an example of the baptism of the HS in Acts. The example would be from Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance".

Yet Acts 2:4 was for those who were "all with one accord in one place" (Acts 2:1) and not the 3000 we speak of.

So Paul teaches one thing and Acts shows another. Both must be true experiences of the HS but rather sweeping the accounts of Acts under a rug why not teach that these experiences are also genuine. I recognize there is a lot of abuse but abuse should not deter us from teaching and acting upon what the bible shows is correct. Read Acts and it will show the baptism of the HS is a separate experience from salvation and water baptism, it shows this experience is like a pouring out (or as scripture explains a "falling") indiscriminately to all, that there are subsequent moments in a believer's life and the baptism of the HS manifests recognizable power of the HS most typically tongues.

No one, me included, is trying to sweep any NT Scriptures under the rug. In fact, my position is to consider all the texts available to us and to consider the complete apostolic teachings as we have them revealed in Holy Scriptures.

Read Acts and it will show the baptism of the HS is a separate experience from salvation and water baptism, it shows this experience is like a pouring out (or as scripture explains a "falling") indiscriminately to all, that there are subsequent moments in a believer's life and the baptism of the HS manifests recognizable power of the HS most typically tongues.

I agree with most of what you wrote but only the parts which can be supported by Holy Scriptures. For example you say the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is "endued with power from on high" is a separate event or experience from salvation and water baptism. I tend to agree. However, I don't agree being 'filled with the Holy Spirit' is the same as being "endued with power from on high" and "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 22:21-22)

I also don't see evidence of "indiscriminately to all." Acts 2 is evidence enough to show the people cut to the heart that day did not go off and start speaking in tongues and prophesying. Just as the Ethiopian eunuch did not. Now is the 'non mention' mean it did not happen. Yes you could argue from silence but bad doctrines arise out of guessing what should or should not be in what is recorded. That is why we have the apostolic epistles. And Paul used quite a bit of ink in 1 Corinthians 12-14 to specifically address gifts of the Holy Spirit and he made it clear we all don't have the same gifts.
 
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Ron Gurley

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RESPONSE TO POST#168: Q1: " Are you suggesting this method of the HS changed somewhere... "

A1: No. GOD'S method/economy of dealing with mankind changed from OT to NT...PERIOD!
 
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redleghunter

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The question comes down to was there a special dispensation of the HS to empower the early church or is the HS the same in action today as he was the day of pentecost. If there was a special dispensation of the HS is this supported by scripture? These are important questions to determine if after reading Acts I should expect the same thing.

Tricky when you word it that way. I know a few men who know prominent missionaries. Their report is the Gospel comes in word and power to areas of the world where the Gospel is just being preached, or has not been preached for a long time.

Meaning miracles, speaking in foreign tongues etc. Again, these are reports.

However, let us not forget our own conversion. Was not our own conversion where God called a destitute and damned sinner to repentance and salvation a miracle? Did we not on the hour we first believed know of His Amazing Grace and how He came to live with us?

Did we not after having this 'mountain top experience' go and tell others joyfully?

So Acts is alive and well with all who trust in Christ.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Receiving the permanent indwelling of God The Holy Spirit occurs at the SALVATION EVENT...WITHOUT anything else!!

1 Corinthians 12:13(NASB)
13 For BY one (God the Holy) Spirit we WERE all (spiritually) baptized into one "body",
(Body of Believers IN Christ = "CHURCH")
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free,
and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
 
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Ron Gurley

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The JOY of SALVATION remains. It is NOT a "second blessing".

John 15 (NASB)...Jesus is the Vine
11 These things I have spoken to you
so that My joy may be in you, and
that your joy may be made full.

John 10:10.. Good Shepherd: Joy in present and future
...I came that they (sheep = believers) may have life, and have it abundantly.
 
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redleghunter

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As I have stated before, very few Pentecostals and charismatics believe that the unregenerate were given the Holy Spirit so that they could receive an interpretation of what the 120 were saying to the Father, if this had of occurred then Luke would have told us so.
Which chapter of Acts are you speaking of? Chapter 2?
 
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DamianWarS

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RESPONSE TO POST#168: Q1: " Are you suggesting this method of the HS changed somewhere... "

A1: No. GOD'S method/economy of dealing with mankind changed from OT to NT...PERIOD!

that isn't exactly clear because you just don't just suggest that the method/economy changed from OT to NT but that during this change there was a undetermined amount of time for a transition period where at the very least the HS operated differently than he did in the OT and does today. I'm also still looking for scriptural support this this said transition time.
 
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Which chapter of Acts are you speaking of? Chapter 2?
Yes, chapter 2.
The reason that some Pentecostals (but not many) attempt to say that the Holy Spirit fell upon the unregenerate so that crowd could understand what the 120 were saying to the Father, is so that the tongues of Acts 2 matches that of 1 Cor 13 & 14 where tongues is always unintelligible to the human ear.

What they seem to forget is that besides Luke not saying such a thing, is that the Day of Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit falling upon the fledgling Church and not the unregenerate. I agree that outside of the Day of Pentecost that tongues are always unintelligible to the human ear, but they need to remember that Pentecost was a unique and unrepeatable event where the giving of the Holy Spirit to the Church was observed through the 120 speaking in tongues.
 
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redleghunter

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Acts 2 says nothing about anyone speaking in a known language or even multiple known languages. Rather it says that those present "heard" them speaking in their own languages.

Frankly that's a new one on me. The text's plain language says thus:

Acts 2: New King James Version (NKJV)

2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

One has to truly wrest the text to deny these 'other tongues' are somehow one tongue but multiple people from multiple languages and dialects heard them speak their own language.
 
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Biblicist

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Unless tongues/"glossa" are in a REAL language understood by someone of a DIFFERENT language, it is of no value, spiritual or otherwise. To someone hearing it is gibberish. It is easliy counterfeited by man and demon.
So you are saying that as you believe that tongues are always given in known languages that a visitor who could speak in a language that some knew could not fake a tongue - are you really being serious or have you not really thought this through?

"Praying in the spirit" is NOT "tongues"! (ALL NASB)
Paul leaves no doubt that praying in the Spirit is in fact how we pray to the Father within inarticulate Angelic tongues; I appreciate that for those who have decided that they do not want to be able to pray in tongues that this means that they are unable to pray in the Spirit but this is their choice and there's alone.
 
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redleghunter

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Absolutely. God does not contradict His Own Word - 1 Corinthians 14:2

Indeed, but you left out what Paul was actually teaching...edification for all church members.

1 Corinthians 14: New King James Version (NKJV)

14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
 
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redleghunter

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Right, personal tongues does not need to be interpreted, but someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues might be given the interpretation. But ALWAYS with the gift of diverse kinds of tongues.

Actually, "praying in the Spirit" is tongues as seen in 1 Corinthians 14:15. However, you may be given the interpretation to know what you are saying.

It is given to all who believe, whether they know they have the right to speak or not. It is part of the whole armor of God. It is very powerful to pray perfect prayers to God that are totally His will.
Actually if you read the entire passage, Paul makes a distinction and verses 16-20 make it clear the goal for edification is understanding.
 
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redleghunter

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That is a contradiction of the Word of God. Believe it if you feel like it, but you are wrong to do so. (1 Cor. 14:2)
Show me the contradiction. The apostles on the day of Pentecost were not praying in the Spirit but proclaiming the Gospel.
 
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