Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[Gabriel Anton]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

edit to add: So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

Peace be with you.

The eternal punishments are far, far, far, and much, much, much more terrible than just fire torments. For every vice and sin committed in this life, there are different punishments meted out in the next life.

For not having faith in God, you'll be punished,
For not hoping in God, you'll be punished,
For not loving the Word of God, you'll be punished,
For not loving one another, you'll be punished,
For not loving charity, you'll be punished,
For not loving kindness, you'll be punished,
For not loving patience, you'll be punished,
For not loving chastity, you'll be punished,
For not loving diligence, you'll be punished,
For not loving humility, you'll be punished,
For not loving temperance, you'll be punished.

In the Word of God, are there any references about God that He can get angry, furious and wrathful?


What is Justice and Judgment relating to God and yourself?

God will judge your deeds to see if any of your deeds committed in this life breaches His Established Rules of Living, Conduct.

If you live in accordance with the Word of God, you have nothing to worry about.

If you don't, suffice to say, you'll reap what you sowed in this life in the next life.


The easiest way to understand rules and order is to experience them yourself. Since this is the Modern times, let's use modern examples where everyone can understand and relate to.

You know the virtual world. I'm talking about let's say computer games. Let's take Sony and PlayStation 4 plus membership network to play online with other players.

You pay a couple of bucks a year to Sony for membership to PS Plus which allows you to play your games online with other PS 4 players all over the world from Saudi Arabia, USA, Japan, U.K, Australia, Russia, Israel, Thailand, Singapore, France, Italy, Argentina, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Columbia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, El Salvador, Finland, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Kuwait, Lebanon, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Oman, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Phillipines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Korea, Taiwan, Turkey, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, Uruguay and Vietnam. Africa is probably the only continent without widespread PS 4 online activity.

There are terms and conditions in place that Sony has implemented that govern conduct between its members when its members are playing games with one another.

When you are in the virtual world, you treat Sony's terms and conditions, rules and regulations as Law.

Failure to do so and you will find out the remifications of your actions.

When you get banned by Sony, there is no way to appeal especially for misconduct relating to treatment of other players because their decision was double checked so there are No errors in their Judgment.

When you get banned for life by Sony, you cannot use your account, you cannot use your console, you cannot play your games. And it does not matter to them that you have spent thousands of dollars. It's no laughing matter. You will feel the consequences of your actions in your life.

Now this is just Sony and this only pertains to the governance of conduct in Sony's virtual world.

You can only imagine with God, how much more serious the consequences of your actions will be and the pronouncement of your eternal sentence will be Triple checked.

When you are condemned in the next life, it means:

God the Father the Creator who created you because He loved you has condemned you,

God the Son the Redeemer who shed His Blood and Water and got tortured to save you because He loved you has condemned you,

God the Holy Spirit the Light of Creation who enlightened and gave graces to you because He loved you has condemned you.

Triple Checked before condemnation can occur.

Sad, sad, sad.


God bless you.

 

[lesliedellow]

Speaking of dodging:

That's not a simple "yes" or "no" answer. Let's try again. Would you feel the same (as expressed in your original post) if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected?

-

What feeling am I supposed to have? That the creature has no business judging the Creator? Absolutely. Although, if the Creator did not commit some to eternal punishment, I suppose the creature might be less inclined to sit in judgment upon his or her Creator.

 

[Major1]

Is there an answer to this somewhere in the above post (am I missing it)?

The question asked was: "I'm not asking for yet another bible quote that could be interpreted six ways to Sunday.

I'm asking you, as an individual, would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice."

YES!

And the reason is simple. God has triumphed over sin. Jesus Christ's death and resurrection did exactly that my friend.

Colossians 2:15......
"He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him."

 

[Der Alte]

Well, duh. If you want to have a discussion with people, discuss. Don't spam "two page long" articles of someone else's work. My point stands.

That was not 2 pages of someone else's work. It was a complete definition of the word "Olam" from Brown. Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. I'm not the one who copy/pastes pages and pages of somebody else's work, you are. Virtually everything you post is a copy/paste canned arguments from some website.

 

[Der Alte]

Everyone will believe & be saved. Even if some have to perish for a while. The same Greek word for perish is used of Jesus' speaking of the lost sheep that was later found
and the lost coin that was sought "till he finds it". That is salvation. Luke 15.
In Revelation the gates to the holy city are never shut. God says He is making "all" new. Chapter 21 says there will be no more pain or death. Chapter 5 says:
and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.
You quoted Rev 5:13 and referred to Chapter 21. Let's read a few verses from Rev 21.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Vs, 4 says "there shall be no more death." In vs. 5 Jesus says "Behold, I make all things new" But in vs. 8 we see several groups of people being thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death. Vss 5 through 8 Jesus is speaking in a continuous narrative.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

And I can find a version, the Joseph Smith Version, which was published by and supports the LDS beliefs and a version, the New World Translation, which was published by and supports the Jehovah Witness beliefs.

 

[Dartman]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

Option one won't work with:
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
The Scriptures state that the wicked will be "burned up", they will "be no more", they will "not be found", etc.
Option two is consistent with ALL Scripture.
Option three isn't consistent with Scripture regarding second death.

 

[Dartman]

I believe the eternal lake of fire will be a place of eternal torment to those who are cast into it at the final judgement..

Hell is not the eternal lake of fire.. Hell is a temporary prison for the spirits of sinners where they are held awaiting the day of judgement..

So in the stoy of lazerus in the Bible the rich man was in hell.. but he was not in the eternal lake of fire..

Luke 16 records two parables, both starting with identical phrases: "there was a certain rich man.."
The PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus is teaching the rejection of the two tribes (the rich man), and the continued rejection of the ten tribes (the five brothers), while the gentiles (Lazarus) will be welcomed into the Abrahamic promises (Abraham's bosom).

Hell being cast into the lake of fire at the final judgement::

Revelation 20: KJV
12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Exactly.
Hell is the grave. The grave is where ALL people wait for resurrection;
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

AFTER the "lake of fire" God eliminates death as an option, and pain, sorrow or crying as a condition;

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The "lake of fire" cannot be put out, it must burn out. The result is, the wicked are "burned up":

Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

2 Peter 3:9-13 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in (all) holy living and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[surrender1]

Because that is not what God says. He doesn't say love me or else. What he he says is this.
“It’s what comes out of a person that contaminates someone in God’s sight,” he said.“It’s from the inside, from the human heart, that evil thoughts come: sexual sins, thefts, murders,adultery, greed, evil actions, deceit, unrestrained immorality, envy, insults, arrogance, and foolishness.All these evil things come from the inside and contaminate a person in God’s sight.” - Mark 7:20-23 Bible Gateway passage: Mark 7:20-23 - Common English Bible

He also says the the heart of man is exceedingly wicked.

So the real story would be a Father who has an evil son who is exceedingly wicked and evil continually saying "I need you to stop doing that so we can have a relationship. If you don't ever do that you will have to be punished for all your evil and wicked deeds and thoughts. I'm going to give you an opportunity to do just that please take it. I love you despite the fact that you are so evil and I want to give you a chance to stop it because I love you. If you don't stop and take the chance then I am going to have to give you the punishment you deserve for the evil you have done.".

So you must believe then that the most loving person in the world, even if he never came to know Christ or profess Christ, will be in heaven? Because that person isn't evil he just doesn't have the right information and didn't come to the right answer. But he's the most loving person in the world. That's with the traditional theology says. That not just the wicked guy who is evil, but the guy he steals a pack of gum, and the guy who cheated on his history exam, and the guy who really never did anything wrong in the world but was raised in the wrong religion. All these guys who aren't wicked are supposedly tortured for eternity because they didn't say the right things according to the churchs' standards.

 

[surrender1]

.

 

[surrender1]

If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not about what happens after one dies then why is all of it about what happens after death?

I don't know. What about the other parables? Like the lady who lost the coin out of a bunch of coins. Why isn't that story about a literal lady who literally lost a bunch of coins and then found the last one and really literally had a big party because she found it? I mean don't we all throw parties when we find our lost keys or lost wallet? I mean we all invite our friends over and have a party. If not, we should because this parable is obviously a literal historical event and meant to teach us to have more parties after we find missing items.

Why isn't it a literal historical story? Because it's a parable and as a parable has a central meaning, and that meaning is not about the details in the story or that they literally took place in history, but about what the details are trying to say about the moral of the story.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't know. What about the other parables? Like the lady who lost the coin out of a bunch of coins. Why isn't that story about a literal lady who literally lost a bunch of coins and then found the last one and really literally had a big party because she found it?

Could it be because she lost one coin and not a bunch so the story is about the lady losing one coin? As for it being real, it could be couldn't it? People do lose coins and find them and sometimes when they find them they rejoice. The same would apply to the rich man and Lazarus if it were a parable. If it is a parable then one would use the same rules of interpretation that apply to the lady who lost a coin. The story itself is credible in the case of the lost coin and what reason is there to deny that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is credible? I don't see any good reason to dismiss it as a total fiction. In fact any parable would lose its impact and value if it were a complete fiction. Jesus' listeners would likely say "this is a fable why ought we believe any of it?" but they did not do that. The Pharisees were scoffing at him in Luke 16:14 because the doubted his authority to condemn their ungodly practises but they did not dismiss his stories as absurd fictions. Do you really want to dismiss the story of the rich man and Lazarus as a total fiction?

 

[Rajni]

Oops sorry meant to say names are NOT mentioned in parables.

No worries, I knew what you meant.

Disciples were astonished and said how can the rich be saved and Jesus replied with God all things are possible.

Exactly! I agree with that part.

People in heaven will see their loved ones suffering in hell but being like angels they will not have regrets and also by knowing God is the righteous judge every mouth will be stopped.

I have heard that explanation and believed it once myself.

What does everlasting fire mean?

The only fire I see as being truly everlasting would be God, who is a Consuming Fire. So, to answer the question, Everlasting Fire is God Himself. Any other fire would only last as long as there was fuel for it to burn. Even parts of Gehenna look like a great place for a picnic, and those fires were supposed to be eternal (Mark 9:45). Some things in scripture were referred to as "everlasting" (or other synonyms) that turned out not to be, such as in Habakkuk 3:6, where the "everlasting" mountains were shattered and the "eternal" hills were leveled.

One helpful rule of thumb in this instance is remembering that adjectives are determined by the nouns they're describing. For example, a "long business meeting" would not be understood to be of the same duration as a "long winter".

This is also why I conclude that eternity in heaven would outlast eternity in the Lake of Fire, because that for which the Lake was designed to burn away won't last forever. Of course, from the Eastern Orthodox vantage point, where heaven and hell are the same place -- God's Presence -- that rendering of the Lake of Fire is eternal, but whether it's miserable or not depends on one's relationship with God, and that can change for the better, imo.

 

[ClementofA]

That was not 2 pages of someone else's work. It was a complete definition of the word "Olam" from Brown. Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. I'm not the one who copy/pastes pages and pages of somebody else's work, you are. Virtually everything you post is a copy/paste canned arguments from some website.

Unless your name is "Brown. Driver, Briggs", it was you copy pasting pages of someone else's work.

 

[Der Alte]

Unless your name is "Brown. Driver, Briggs", it was you copy pasting pages of someone else's work.

Rubbish! You evidently do not know the difference between citing the definition of a word from a language resource i.e. a lexicon and what you do which is copy/paste pages and pages of a canned argument from someone else which often quotes from secondary writings. Don't believe me go to any college or university and ask any professor if there is any difference or if quoting a definition from a lexicon fits the description of "copy pasting pages of someone else's work."

 

[surrender1]

Could it be because she lost one coin and not a bunch so the story is about the lady losing one coin? As for it being real, it could be couldn't it? People do lose coins and find them and sometimes when they find them they rejoice. The same would apply to the rich man and Lazarus if it were a parable. If it is a parable then one would use the same rules of interpretation that apply to the lady who lost a coin. The story itself is credible in the case of the lost coin and what reason is there to deny that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is credible? I don't see any good reason to dismiss it as a total fiction. In fact any parable would lose its impact and value if it were a complete fiction. Jesus' listeners would likely say "this is a fable why ought we believe any of it?" but they did not do that. The Pharisees were scoffing at him in Luke 16:14 because the doubted his authority to condemn their ungodly practises but they did not dismiss his stories as absurd fictions. Do you really want to dismiss the story of the rich man and Lazarus as a total fiction?

Well, yeah, parables are fictional narratives.

 

[ClementofA]

Rubbish! You evidently do not know the difference between citing the definition of a word from a language resource i.e. a lexicon and what you do which is copy/paste pages and pages of a canned argument from someone else which often quotes from secondary writings. Don't believe me go to any college or university and ask any professor if there is any difference or if quoting a definition from a lexicon fits the description of "copy pasting pages of someone else's work."

The fact is you copy pasted pages of other people's work. Is that so hard to admit. They say confession is good for the soul.

Deny. Deny. Deny. Denial...is that a river in Egypt?

 

[ClementofA]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.
You quoted Rev 5:13 and referred to Chapter 21. Let's read a few verses from Rev 21.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Vs, 4 says "there shall be no more death." In vs. 5 Jesus says "Behold, I make all things new" But in vs. 8 we see several groups of people being thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death. Vss 5 through 8 Jesus is speaking in a continuous narrative.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Do you also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire?

A number of versions read at v.5 that God is "making" all things new. It sounds like it hasn't happened yet, but is an ongoing process.

Verse 4 speaks of things which "shall" be, not are. In a number of translations v.4 has the word "first" instead of "former". What is this "first"? Does it refer back to v.1?

"for the former things are passed away] for should probably be omitted; and the word for “former” is literally, first." Revelation 21:4 Commentaries: and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

The word "things" (21:4) is not in the Greek. The ending of v.4 without man's added punctuations, according to the following link, has the words: first/chief to go away/go after.
Revelation 21:4 Lexicon: and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

Verse 8 refers back to what already transpired in Revelation 20:13-15. And gives additional info re what persons will be cast into the lake of fire, calling it the second death. If death is gone (21:4), then why does the author refer to death again in 21:8?

It is a mistake to assume chapters 20-22 of Revelation are written in chronological order.

If everyone's destinies are finalized at 21:4-5, then why does God say in verse 6 "to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely"? Because those in the lake of fire (21:8; 20:13-15) can still be saved? The gates into the holy city are never shut (21:25).

If 21:4 refers only to the saved at that time, verse 5 says in various translations God is "making ALL" new. And there is still death which hasn't been abolished yet (1 Cor.15:22-28).

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Authority (as in human scholarship) has significance but Robert Young is not the only authority on the meaning of Greek words and he wrote in the 19th century (he died in 1888) before the distinction between Koine Greek and Attic Greek was known and understood (Koine Greek was 'discovered' around beginning of the 20th century). Because his translation was the product of scholarship that was unaware of the origins and development of Koine Greek it is inaccurate in numerous ways. You would be far better served by consulting reputable translations from the beginning of the 20th century up to today.

Following are various translations of Matthew 25:46:

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous ?into onian life."

The People's New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

 

[Rajni]

What feeling am I supposed to have? That the creature has no business judging the Creator? Absolutely.

Thank you.

Although, if the Creator did not commit some to eternal punishment, I suppose the creature might be less inclined to sit in judgment upon his or her Creator.

Oh, I've seen plenty of sitting in judgment of the Creator with those who object to the idea that people don't get punished eternally as well. They insist that He would not be "just" if everyone was saved in the end. It's along the same lines as the righteous brother's judgment of his father at the latter's acceptance of the prodigal son, just on a grander scale.

 

[GingerBeer]

Well, yeah, parables are fictional narratives.

I do not agree. Can you give specific examples of the parables of Jesus being clearly fictional?