To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[surrender1]

If you want to teach untruths, you really need to get some new material to pretend to back it with.

If you're so concerned about doing the right things to get into heaven, why are you being a jerk with this comment?

 

[claninja]

No.

that's ok. thanks anyways though ken.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I don't mean an assumption that the spirit of the damned is eternal, but scriptural proof.

I gave you two out of many. It's not an assumption.
Blessings

 

[CrystalDragon]

I'm afraid he does... read Revelation end to end and then tell me that there's no eternal damnation. Any other ideas are from people trying to make scripture suit their lifestyle.

Wasn't Revelation just meant to be symbolic to the churches under persecution of the Roman Empire at the time? It's even addressed to them specifically.

 

[claninja]

I think this is stretching for a way around the clear import of the passages I posted about ECT. I don't see Christ issuing judgments upon Israel so much as he condemns constantly the hypocritical religious leaders of Israel (Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees).

So Israel was not judged by God for rejecting Christ? According to Josephus, around 1 million jews died in the Jewish-Roman war. I don't think they were all Pharisees, scribes, and sadducees.

You're indulging in a bit of eisegesis here. Matthew explains what Christ meant very clearly:

Matthew 21:43-45
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

As I said, Christ is going after the religious leaders of Israel, not Israel itself. Remember, most of the first Christian believers were Jews.

Telling someone they are using eisegesis is poor way to defend an argument. Instead, use scripture to defend your position without trying to belittle the other person. These debates should be place where we can learn from each other in grace, as we are all sinners.

Yes you are correct, Jesus was speaking to Pharisees. But we know Paul was part of an elect remnant of Jews who were chosen to believe in Christ romans 11:1-4. and if it wasn't for that that elect remnant, Israel would have come like Sodom and Gomorrah: romans 9:27-29.
Remnant means small remaining quantity of something. Therefore, the large portion of Israel was hardened and judged for it.

Nothing about Christ's words confines his parable to Israel and its destruction. In fact, at the end of his parable, Christ simply says,

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

I don't see a restriction of Christ's meaning here. His conclusion is quite generic, in fact.

I would disagree, only because this parable, along with the parable of the wicked tenants, parallels Israel's history. God sends prophets, Israel kills said prophets, God cuts off Israel and gives kingdom to others. This is explained in Romans 11.

Again, this is eisegesis at work. Nothing in the text itself gives us to think you're right and the larger context of Matthew you've referred to helps you very little in the conclusion you're drawing here. I think the usual, common understanding of this text as teaching ECT is quite justified.

I'm not arguing for or against hell. I just don't think that this passage talks about it. My point is that the context of Matthew 21-24 is the destruction and judgment of Israel. Suddenly switching the context of the parable of the sheep and goats to a future 2000+ years later doesn't fit the context of Matthew 21-24, as THIS GENERATION (Jesus' audience) would not pass away until all these things occurred.

So correct me if i'm wrong, but you are stating matthew 21-24 has nothing to do with Israel, but about a future generation that is 2000+ years away?

 

[tim hopkins]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

The bible doesn't threaten endless conscious torments in Hell. It tells you that this torment is real BUT the good news is that you don't have to experience this. For this place of torment was created for the Evil One and his cohorts and not for humans. We only experience this place when we reject Jesus Christ the Key to Life with Our Father in Heaven.
2) In an answer to the next question, the bible provides us with a peak into the eternity. It's hard for us to realize that not only is God a good God but He is also the judge of all of the earth. When He makes an edict or Law it must be followed. Now we can argue and debate but the bottom line is that His decision is final. If you desire righteousness and to please Him, you will heed his warning. But it is the job of the Evil one to confuse and deceive us. Why not just take Him at his Word, believe it and obey. And try not to leave your life to a philosophy that God may or may not change His mind.

 

[Rajni]

Wasn't Revelation just meant to be symbolic to the churches under persecution of the Roman Empire at the time? It's even addressed to them specifically.

What's interesting there is that at the end of it all, Revelations 22:2 mentions a Tree for the healing of the nations. If the fate of the unsaved was forever set in stone at that point, why have a tree for healing? The saved wouldn't need it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is both foolish and dangerous to take a Parable as literal. No one I know of would ever do this with any of the other parables Yeshua gave during his ministry.

What made you think that was just a parable?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I gave you two out of many. It's not an assumption.
Blessings

Neither one of your texts answered my question, so if you have more on the immortality of the spirits of the damned, I'd like to see them. thanks.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Wasn't Revelation just meant to be symbolic to the churches under persecution of the Roman Empire at the time? It's even addressed to them specifically.

Thanks for pointing this out, Chrystal Dragon. Yes, Revelation is a very symbolic book. It is filled with symbolic language. I discuss this in depth in a blog series I did on the meaning of the "second death". You may find it here:

What is the Second Death?

 

[Butch5]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

This concept of Hell is not a Biblical concept.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[AlexDTX]

There is torment in Hell.
It is self-imposed.

This might be so, but, unlike many, I do not believe this is a real story but a parable to make a point. Furthermore, my point is that Hell is not the Lake of Fire, and I think you are nitpicking.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Wasn't Revelation just meant to be symbolic to the churches under persecution of the Roman Empire at the time? It's even addressed to them specifically.

Only in part. Jesus writes letters to 7 churches only, when there were others he didn't address. Why? Because the book of Revelation is also a prophecy. The seven churches, besides to those local churches, was prophetic of the entire church age from beginning - 1st century - to the end, the second coming.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with you

One of the few.

 

[Der Alte]

However with the repeated (ad nauseum) Biblical warning that the penalty for sin is death, one might expect that those who are found to be sinners in this resurrection/judgement period would in fact experience death and not some other form of eternal life.

A good example of cherry picking out-of-context proof texts to support a false belief.
You forgot the verse which says it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment. What it does not say is it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment then another death.
Daniel 12:2, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ...to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel was written about 700 years BC as I read it, it does not say that those who awake to to shame and everlasting contempt will die again or be saved.
Instead of a drive by hit and run would you care to address Daniel 12:2? See my comments above.
Actually the proof texts in Revelation don't even support a "second death" when read in context.

 

[dqhall]

The lake of fire is after the last resurrection, and after the millennium. I consider that hell.

Outer darkness could be hades, which would be after death, but before the last resurrection of the dead.

In 2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. The earth and heavens will be destroyed with intense heat. (WEB)

No hell can last forever. The lake of fire is not mentioned outside of Revelation. I think it is merely a symbol of the day of judgement. It is not a physical place.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If you're so concerned about doing the right things to get into heaven, why are you being a jerk with this comment?

Oh , I see. Probably best to stick with the subject, when you attack character that makes it look like you have no defense .

Not that I mind personally, but for your own benefit and for the sake of getting to the bottom of this..