Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[Marvin Knox]

What is it that you don't get about repentance for the remission of sins?

Actually I think I get most of it.

Have you ever seen me teach agains the concept of repentance as an integral part of believing on Christ?

Are you laboring under the misaprehension that those who don't believe in a Pelagian view of salvation have not therefore personally repented of our sins?

There is no need for a full/limited atonement argument. It's just natural men tossing leaves into the wind to see where they land.

I agree with this.

Where did you get the idea that I wouldn't?

There is no need for an argument about the extent of the atonement at all.

The scripture is pretty clear that the atonement was of unlimited value for all. People of the Calvinis persuasion should have just left it at that and not developed the doctrine of limited atonement through the use of faulty logic.

It doesn't matter if it's a full/limited atonement

Not so.

Sound doctrine is of much importance in the church.

................ if you don't repent, you will perish. You can spend eternity in hell gnashing your teeth, if you don't repent.

Very true.

But that, of course, depends on how your view of repentance for the remission of sins works into a sound systematic theology which includes salvation by grace?

I realize that you do not believe in systematic theology. But it is of prime importance to let the scriptures interpret the scriptures and show yourself a good workman and approved of God rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

".....there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 1 Corinthians 11:19

I believe I know whether you will be approved of God in the end or not - should you fail to exercise saving faith in this lifetime.

It's not a prety picture.

 

[EmSw]

I'd love to. This is what Jesus said to those of your persuasion:
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5


Since Jesus' words to the Pharisees in John 5:39,40 are clear enough about what the Scriptures taught in the OT, that's the proof.

Try again, and this time answer the question. Show us where anyone KEEPING the law is sent to hell.

 

[St_Worm2]

I think such a view rests on the notion that it was Christ's death that saves, even though there are no Scriptures to support that.

Hi FG2, it seems to me that BOTH His death and His resurrection are necessary where salvation is concerned. For instance:

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

I think I should also point out that His "life", the one He led on our behalf in perfect obedience to His Father's will, is just as necessary as His death and His resurrection where salvation is concerned, because we need to be righteous (not simply innocent of wrongdoing) to receive eternal life

In Christ,
David

Colossians 1
19 It was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His Cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

 

[EmSw]

Actually I think I get most of it.

Have you ever seen me teach agains the concept of repentance as an integral part of believing on Christ?

I don't believe I have. However, it's not only an integral part of believing, but an integral part of salvation.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.


Luke 13:5
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

It was so important to Jesus, He repeated it twice. How important should it be to us?

Are you laboring under the misaprehension that those who don't believe in a Pelagian view of salvation have not therefore personally repented of our sins?

Not at all, but it's not just a Pelagian view. Those who treasure Jesus' words put an utmost emphasis on it.

I agree with this.

Where did you get the idea that I wouldn't?

There is no need for an argument about the extent of the atonement at all.

The scripture is pretty clear that the atonement was of unlimited value for all. People of the Calvinis persuasion should have just left it at that and not developed the doctrine of limited atonement through the use of faulty logic.

Good. I will say it again, it's all about repentance. And repentance can't be called limitied/unlimited at all. It is totally up to man whether he repents or not.

Not so.

Sound doctrine is of much importance in the church.

In the long run, it matters not if one believes in a limited/unlimited atonement. One can repent no matter which one he believes.

Very true.

But that, of course, depends on how your view of repentance for the remission of sins works into a sound systematic theology which includes salvation by grace?

I realize that you do not believe in systematic theology. But it is of prime importance to let the scriptures interpret the scriptures and show yourself a good workman and approved of God rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Why can't repentance for the remission of sins work into a systematic theology? It's best to believe Jesus and repent, and then work all other things into it.

Rightly dividing means to proceed on a straight path. However, the path MUST start with Jesus' words and proceed from there.

....there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 1 Corinthians 11:19

I believe I know whether you will be approved of God in the end or not - should you fail to exercise saving faith in this lifetime.

It's not a prety picture.

Certainly you are talking about a faith that is not dead. The Reformed will always tell you anything dead can't do anything spiritual.

One other thing you must consider, is that Paul could have been talking about you being in the sect of the Reformed.

 

[Marvin Knox]

................... However, it's not only an integral part of believing, but an integral part of salvation.

Believing is all that is required for salvation.

"And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:29-31

If repentance is an integral part of believing - and if believing is all that is required for salvation - then repentance is required for salviation.

Good job. That's the best logic I've ever seen you use. I'm not sure that it wasn't by accident. But, still, pretty good logic.

DON'T LOOK NOW BUT THAT'S SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY BY THE WAY.

However an illogical construct would be to end the equation with "then repentance is all that's required for salvation".

Since you're on a good logical and systematic roll - I'd hate to see you stumble into that kind of poor logic.

It was so important to Jesus, He repeated it twice. How important should it be to us?

Pretty darn important. That's why the ministry of Jesus was preceded by the ministry of John the Baptist.

That's also why repentance is preached by everyone who teaches about salvation - including all Calvnists I have had contact with in my 71 years.

......... Those who treasure Jesus' words put an utmost emphasis on it.

I wouldn't say the utmost importance. Otherwise God could have just stopped with John's ministry now couldn't He?

Good. I will say it again, it's all about repentance.

Oh no - you've taken that illocical contruct I warned you about and swollowed it whole. So much for your side trip with good systematic logic.

. And repentance can't be called limitied/unlimited at all.

The limited vs. unlimited discussion we've been having here is about the atonement not repentacne. Try to keep up.

It is totally up to man whether he repents or not.

That's not even close to being Biblical.

"..........correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth" 2 Timothy 2:25

In the long run, it matters not if one believes in a limited/unlimited atonement. One can repent no matter which one he believes.

Of course.

Who has said otherwise? It certainly wasn't me.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever heard a Calvinist say that belief in limited atonement is necessary to repent.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever heard an Arminian say that belief in unlimited atonement is necessary to repent.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever heard FreeGrace2 say that belief in unlimited atonement is necessary to repent.

Where do you get these ideas?

 

[sdowney717]

Apparently not always.

As a fellow Reformed theologian I'm with you on many things but not this one. I'll go with what the scriptures teach on the subject.

"He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

A 5-pointer might be tempted to respond with the old dodge about whole world not meaning the reprobate alsobut the elect from "all over the world".

But then the elect from all over the world would be included in "ours" wouldn't it.

Adding the whole world to that would be redundant wouldn't it?

There is, after all, only one church in this world is there not?

Verse 47, he who believes in Christ has eternal life. (another good believing you have life verse).

Verse 51, Christ says if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever and Christ says He gives His flesh for the life of the world, that anyone in the world who eats His flesh may have eternal life.

The atonement Christ says will go out into all the world, not for the jews only, but they must believe and eat His flesh else it won't do them any good. And later on, Christ says only those the Father gives to Him will come to Him. So only those given will actually 'eat Christ'. An interesting idea eating Christ, which I take to mean He becomes a part of you, and you become a part of Him, so your joined together as one spirit with Christ.

A propitiation for sin, John says basically the same here as Christ says about giving His life so that anyone jew or gentile that believes has eternal life, a worldwide promise. Most of the Jews had a lousy opinion of gentiles as being unclean and cursed by God. Christ by saying these things is like a rebuke to them and their perception of having special status with God. Christ is overturning their tables here, overthrow all they thought they knew, everything is about to change. And they are proven spiritually dead as they don't even recognize who He is, refusing to hear and hearken to Him.

John 6
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

 

[EmSw]

Believing is all that is required for salvation.

"And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:29-31

If repentance is an integral part of believing - and if believing is all that is required for salvation - then repentance is required for salviation.

Good job. That's the best logic I've ever seen you use. I'm not sure that it wasn't by accident. But, still, pretty good logic.

DON'T LOOK NOW BUT THAT'S SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY BY THE WAY.

Thank you, but let's go on and see what develops.

However an illogical construct would be to end the equation with "then repentance is all that's required for salvation".

Since you're on a good logical and systematic roll - I'd hate to see you stumble into that kind of poor logic.

Pretty darn important. That's why the ministry of Jesus was preceded by the ministry of John the Baptist.

That's also why repentance is preached by everyone who teaches about salvation - including all Calvnists I have had contact with in my 71 years.

I wouldn't say the utmost importance. Otherwise God could have just stopped with John's ministry now couldn't He?

I never said repentance is all that is required for salvation...keep up.

What was the Baptist's mission on earth?

Isaiah 40:3
The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

John's ministry wasn't an isolated ministry; it has a purpose. It prepared the way of Jesus, which included repentance. Therefore, it was of utmost importance. If God stopped with John, then the way for Jesus wouldn't be prepared.

Oh no - you've taken that illocical contruct I warned you about and swollowed it whole. So much for your side trip with good systematic logic.

The limited vs. unlimited discussion we've been having here is about the atonement not repentacne. Try to keep up.

If repentance isn't all that important with systematic theology, I could care less about it. Perhaps Jesus' words just don't ring a bell with you - 'unless you repent, you will likewise perish'. And didn't you say it was darn important? Isn't perish the opposite of salvation?

That's not even close to being Biblical.

"..........correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth" 2 Timothy 2:25

Uh oh, you didn't take every passage on repentance into consideration - bad, bad systematic theology.

Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

If God commands repentance, I can guarantee He has 'granted' repentance. And this command is for ALL MEN EVERYWHERE!

Of course.

Who has said otherwise? It certainly wasn't me.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever heard a Calvinist say that belief in limited atonement is necessary to repent.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever heard an Arminian say that belief in unlimited atonement is necessary to repent.

Nor, for that matter, have I ever heard FreeGrace2 say that belief in unlimited atonement is necessary to repent.

Where do you get these ideas?

All we have to do is believe what Jesus said was of utmost importance - 'unless you repent, you will likewise perish.'

It matters not about predestination, election, OSAS, nor atonement. ALL THAT MATTERS IS REPENTING! No repentance, no salvation! It's actually pretty simple.

Yes, men must do something for salvation!

 

[Marvin Knox]

Verse 47, he who believes in Christ has eternal life. (another good believing you have life verse).
Verse 51, Christ says if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever and Christ says He gives His flesh for the life of the world, that anyone in the world who eats His flesh may have eternal life.

The atonement Christ says will go out into all the world, not for the jews only, but they must believe and eat His flesh else it won't do them any good. And later on, Christ says only those the Father gives to Him will come to Him. So only those given will actually 'eat Christ'. An interesting idea eating Christ, which I take to mean He becomes a part of you, and you become a part of Him, so your joined together as one spirit with Christ.

Great verses/ I agree with your commentary on them.
Not sure if there is a problem or what??????.

A propitiation for sin, John says basically the same here as Christ says about giving His life so that anyone jew or gentile that believes has eternal life, a worldwide promise. Most of the Jews had a lousy opinion of gentiles as being unclean and cursed by God. Christ by saying these things is like a rebuke to them and their perception of having special status with God. Christ is overturning their tables here, overthrow all they thought they knew, everything is about to change. And they are proven spiritually dead as they don't even recognize who He is, refusing to hear and hearken to Him."

Same comment I guess.

John 6
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Great passage!

I'm not sure how that addresses the verse I cited or contradicts my comments .

"He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

A 5-pointer might be tempted to respond with the old dodge about whole world not meaning the reprobate alsobut the elect from "all over the world".

But then the elect from all over the world would be included in "ours" wouldn't it?

Adding the whole world to that would be redundant wouldn't it?

There is, after all, only one church in this world is there not?

The "whole world referred to in 1 John 2:2 - who are included in the atonement - quite obviously means those other than the elect (i.e. "OURS").

 

[Marvin Knox]

I never said repentance is all that is required for salvation...keep up.

What was the Baptist's mission on earth?

Of course you did - several times in fact.

What was the Baptist's mission on earth?
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
John's ministry wasn't an isolated ministry; it has a purpose. It prepared the way of Jesus, which included repentance. Therefore, it was of utmost importance. If God stopped with John, then the way for Jesus wouldn't be prepared.!

Obviously!

Repentance is the preparation for saving belief on the one who was to come.

You've said again - that repentance it "utmost" (i.e. greatest ) part of the the salvation process. It is not. It is, however, an integral part of the process as all agree.

If repentance isn't all that important with systematic theology, I could care less about it. Perhaps Jesus' words just don't ring a bell with you - 'unless you repent, you will likewise perish'. And didn't you say it was darn important? Isn't perish the opposite of salvation?

I don't mean this a a vicious slam. Just a necessary observation.

A lot of what you say (like this quote) just makes no sense.

Uh oh, you didn't take every passage on repentance into consideration - bad, bad systematic theology.

Where did I show that I didn't take a passage on repentance into consideration?

Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

If God commands repentance, I can guarantee He has 'granted' repentance. And this command is for ALL MEN EVERYWHERE!

How do you "guarantee" that?

God gives many commands which natural men are unable in and of themselves to do. What is necessary therefore is a new creation.

• Jeremiah 13:23 (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

• John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

• Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

• Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

I'm going to try hard to just ignore you now.

You don't value much of the N.T. You don't even believe in the atonement.

Why this forum tolerates the participation in the forum by those who are obvously unbelievers , I just don't understand.

 

[St_Worm2]

Show us where anyone KEEPING the law is sent to hell.

Hi Em/FG2, I hope it's ok with both of you if I jump in here

You're correct Em, Hell isn't a problem for anyone who "keeps" the Law, but therein lies the problem, no one does That, in fact, is one of the reasons the Incarnation is so important, because no one, EXCEPT for the Lord, has ever been able to, so that's something else He had to do for us when He was here!

Look, the ONLY reason anyone needs to ask for forgiveness and repent is because they haven't kept the Law! And as St. James tells us:

James 2
10 Whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For He who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery, but you do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.​

Israel's sacrifices demonstrated clearly for us, again and again, that saying, "we're sorry and we'll never do it again", doesn't get the job done, because "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" .. Hebrews 9:22. That's why millions of animals were sacrificed over the millennia in Israel, because forgiveness isn't handed out willy-nilly by God, rather someone has to die. That's how seriously God considers sin and the forgiveness He offers us from our sins.

Yours and His,
David

Matthew 26
27 After taking the cup and giving thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is My blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
​

 

[EmSw]

Of course you did - several times in fact.

Obviously!

Repentance is the preparation for saving belief on the one who was to come.

You've said again - that repentance it "utmost" (i.e. greatest ) part of the the salvation process. It is not. It is, however, an integral part of the process as all agree.

Did you not say repentance is the preparation for faith? Yet you don't think repentance is of utmost importance. How will you have saving belief without repentance?

I don't mean this a a vicious slam. Just a necessary observation.

A lot of what you say (like this quote) just makes no sense.

Where did I show that I didn't take a passage on repentance into consideration?

Is this passage referring to salvation or not?

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Oh, if what I say doesn't make sense to you, maybe you should read 1 Corinthians 2:14 again.

How do you "guarantee" that?

God gives many commands which natural men are unable in and of themselves to do. What is necessary therefore is a new creation.

• Jeremiah 13:23 (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

• John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

• Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

• Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

I see you changed what was written in Jeremiah 13:23. Besides, the leopard changing his spots is referring to all the things happening to Judah and Jerusalem. Can these things not happen to them? Can a leopard change his spots? God said because of the magnitude of their iniquity, their skirts have been removed and their heels have been exposed. Since a leopard can not change his spots, changing what is happening to them cannot be changed.

This is called sowing and reaping.

Then God tells them they also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil. They can do good, but they chose to do evil, and doing evil, all these things are going to happen to them. God asks, 'how long will you remain unclean?'

I'm going to try hard to just ignore you now.

You don't value much of the N.T. You don't even believe in the atonement.

Why this forum tolerates the participation in the forum by those who are obvously unbelievers , I just don't understand.

Marvin, you can't ignore me; it has been put into your heart to listen, yet you want to fight it.

Oh, I believe in the atonement, Marvin. Please don't resort to lying. I've already told you when a person repents for remission of sins, atonement is included in the remission.

Please tell us if the men with Paul on the road to Damascus heard a voice or didn't hear a voice. No one has attempted to answer this when I asked them. Maybe you will be the first. Once you answer, you will begin to understand.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Try again, and this time answer the question. Show us where anyone KEEPING the law is sent to hell.

I showed the verses. And I know your penchant for rejecting Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi FG2, it seems to me that BOTH His death and His resurrection are necessary where salvation is concerned. For instance:

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

I think I should also point out that His "life", the one He led on our behalf in perfect obedience to His Father's will, is just as necessary as His death and His resurrection where salvation is concerned, because we need to be righteous (not simply innocent of wrongdoing) to receive eternal life

In Christ,
David

Colossians 1
19 It was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His Cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

​

I think Rom 4:25 explains it well.

 

[sdowney717]

The law could not be kept, Jesus told the jews NONE of them kept the law.
The law points people to Christ as only Christ kept the whole law, being of course the perfect Lamb of God. What an affrontery, an attack to their religious sensibilities, Christ telling them none of them keeps the LAW, when they thought they did.

John 7:18-20New King James Version (NKJV)
18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

20 The people answered and said, “You have a demon. Who is seeking to kill You?”

 

[EmSw]

I showed the verses. And I know your penchant for rejecting Scripture.

You haven't shown anything. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will you find anyone going to hell for keeping the law.

 

[St_Worm2]

You haven't shown anything. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will you find anyone going to hell for keeping the law.

Hi @EmSw, nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will you find anyone going to Heaven by keeping the law, because no one does (save the One who came from Heaven to save us).

Romans 2
12 All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.​

Therein lies the problem with your newest theory of self-atonement, because there are no "doers of the Law". Rather, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God .. Romans 3:23.

The Incarnation and the Cross continue to stand in direct opposition to your entire Pelagian belief system, Em Salvation is by grace through faith, apart from anything that 'we' do .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-9/cf Titus 3:5.

I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, but you're a sinner too, just like the rest of us, so continuing to dismiss Christ as Savior will not end well for you .. e.g. John 3:18; 1 John 5:11-12.

In Christ,
David
p.s. - continuing to pray for you

Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.​

 

[EmSw]

Hi @EmSw, nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will you find anyone going to Heaven by keeping the law, because no one does (save the One who came from Heaven to save us).

Hello St. Worm. You have to be kidding! Do you really believe everyone in the OT was lost? Who told you this?

I will ask you to provide any passages which say anyone went to hell by keeping the law. While you are seeking, I will give you this one -

Proverbs 13:14
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death.

I guess you think Zacharias and Elizabeth are in hell too.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Zacharias and Elizabeth trump this natural, human belief. Do not doubt the living word of God.

Ezekiel 18:19
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.

Do you think anyone in the OT lived because of what God says here? Do you doubt man can live according to God's word?

Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

I wonder why some don't believe God's word. They had rather input their own human understanding rather than believe God. Hopefully you will see the truth and believe God's word. The key is to walk blamelessly in all His commandments. Then we have John telling us this -

1 John 2:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

This is the test John gives us as to whether we know Him or not. According to this human belief of yours, nobody knows Him. Do you know Him, St. Worm?

Therein lies the problem with your newest theory of self-atonement, because there are no "doers of the Law". Rather, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God .. Romans 3:23.

Don't be deceived; many, many keep His law. And again, many, many care nothing about keeping His law. Do you not keep His commandments, St. Worm? If not, Jesus says you don't love Him. Can you not keep from lying? Can you not keep from lusting after your neighbor? If not, you are in a sad state.

Salvation is by grace through faith, apart from anything that 'we' do .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-9/cf Titus 3:5. The Incarnation and the Cross continue to stand in direct opposition to your entire Pelagian belief system, Em. You are a sinner, just like the rest of us, so dismissing Christ as Savior will not end well for you .. e.g. John 3:18; 1 John 5:11-12.

In Christ,
David
p.s. - continuing to pray for you

Jesus said, 'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.' I'm sorry if I believe Jesus, and I am sorry Jesus' words stand in the way of your beliefs. I am not the one dismissing Christ as Savior, rather, it is those who do not do what He says.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello St. Worm. You have to be kidding! Do you really believe everyone in the OT was lost? Who told you this?

Hi Em, no one told me that, I didn't say that, nor do I believe that. OT and NT saints are saved in the same manner, by believing in the Savior .. e.g. Genesis 15:6; John 3:16, 18; John 5:24. Those in the OT looked ahead to Messiah for salvation, just like we look back to Him now.

Salvation (both then and now) is by God's grace through faith, and not by anything we do, no righteous deed we perform .. Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5. No one will go to be with God by keeping the Law because no one has, and no one can. All are transgressors of the Law .. Romans 3:10-12, 23, and therefore all are without hope outside of Christ. That's why it's necessary to have Christ as our "Savior", why He cannot simply be our "Guide" (as I know you believe Him to be).

Again, the Incarnation and the Cross stand diametrically opposed to your idea of self-atonement Em, because if we could save ourselves, then the Lord would never have come here to suffer and die for us, but He did so because ALL would have been lost, OT and NT, if He did not

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[redleghunter]

I will ask you to provide any passages which say anyone went to hell by keeping the law. While you are seeking, I will give you this one -

Frankly that is not what he said.

It boils down to whether you view law observance justifies a sinner. None of the OT saints claimed to be perfect at abiding with the law.

If one truly believes we are justified by the law, then what was the purpose of The Son of God to come in human form to be crucified?

 

[EmSw]

Hi Em, no one told me that, I didn't say that, nor do I believe that. OT and NT saints are saved in the same manner, by believing in the Savior .. e.g. Genesis 15:6; John 3:16, 18; John 5:24. Those in the OT looked ahead to Messiah for salvation, just like we look back to Him now.

Hello St. Worm. Why did the OT saints look 'ahead' to the Messiah for salvation? Was not salvation available during their lifetime? Did they not have a Savior during their lifetime?

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.

Isaiah 49:26
I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine. All flesh shall know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

So tell us why they looked 'ahead' to the Messiah for salvation, when the Lord was their Savior and Redeemer? Could the Lord their Savior not save them during their lifetime?

Salvation (both then and now) is by God's grace through faith, and not by anything we do, no righteous deed we perform .. Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5. No one will go to be with God by keeping the Law because no one has, and no one can. All are transgressors of the Law .. Romans 3:10-12, 23, and therefore all are without hope outside of Christ. That's why it's necessary to have Christ as our "Savior", why He cannot simply be our "Guide" (as I know you believe Him to be).

Let me give you this verse again, from the OT -

Ezekiel 18:19
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.

Please notice it says, 'Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.'

Did God deceive us into thinking we can do what is lawful and keep all His statutes and observe them? Or, is it man deceiving us into thinking that we can't?

He not only is our Guide, but our Path, our Truth, our Life, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Master, our Teacher, our Light, our Lord, our Strength, and our King.

Again, the Incarnation and the Cross stand diametrically opposed to your idea of self-atonement Em, because if we could save ourselves, then the Lord would never have come here to suffer and die for us, but He did so because ALL would have been lost, OT and NT, if He did not

Atonement is forgiveness, and nothing from me. Forgiveness comes from repentance, turning from our sins, and turning to the Lord. Repentance and remission of sins has nothing to do with suffering and dying. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can repent.