Hate Crimes Against Muslims Continue to Rise in 2016

[Ana the Ist]

Okay but here's hte issue with that. In the US, there IS NO significant reason to be scared of Muslims. There REALLY isn't. If you were to be living in the Middle EAst, you would be a nutter to NOT be scared.

Why is that?

But allow me this: Why is it that we have to acknowledge other people's unwillingness to step back and consider data that suggests real areas of concern?

Show me proof that domestic terrorism in the name of Islam SHOULD be a signficant concern to people over, say, leaving an unlocked gun in a bedside table; or being trampled by cows; or slipping in a bathtub.

Well you would agree that over the last 3-4 decades...we've seen an increase in terror attacks by muslims in the west, right? I think that's pretty much undeniable...correct?

While I can understand that you'd look at the attacks which are successful and think "well a few people got killed...but not as many as die every day from diabetes!" and view terrorism as a relatively small problem...what about those attacks which have failed?

Al Qaeda’s Pursuit of Weapons of Mass Destruction

While it's easy to look at the small scale attacks and think it's a small problem...they only need to be successful with one large scale attack and it's the end of your society. That is their goal...it's not to just murder a few people a few times a year.

That seems significant enough to be a legitimate concern.

 

[rambot]

Why is that?

Because the chance of being affected by a terrorist in ANY WAY is beyond infinitesimal.

Well you would agree that over the last 3-4 decades...we've seen an increase in terror attacks by muslims in the west, right? I think that's pretty much undeniable...correct?

Yes from absolutely never to about 1/100,000 as likely as a school shooting. So that's a big jump.
What is the pointof being worried about an increase like that?

While I can understand that you'd look at the attacks which are successful and think "well a few people got killed...but not as many as die every day from diabetes!" and view terrorism as a relatively small problem...what about those attacks which have failed?

What about them?

Do you deny that you are FAR more likely to get killed by a child with a gun than with a terrorist?

While it's easy to look at the small scale attacks and think it's a small problem...they only need to be successful with one large scale attack and it's the end of your society.

But there are actual, for REAL problems in the US. There are reasons RIGHT NOW, to be scared...about things RIGHT NOW. There are problems to be solved right now. So I accept that in some point in the future, some "large scale attack" might happen. But you are focussed on Muslims. Clearly, there are many hate filled people in the US who would be happy to destroy all Muslim Americans (or, if they were generous, repatriate them).
Are you concerned about the safety of Muslim Americans? Because they would ALSO die. And they don't wnat to die. And, I'd wager, MANY of them don't want US society to end.

That is their goal...it's not to just murder a few people a few times a year.

Ok.
So, how helpful is it for moderate and liberal muslims to hear things like 'That is their goal...end of your society"? Because it's important to not conflate ALL muslims with muslim extremism. I didn't see you do that in this thread; Did I miss it?
When extremist muslims are picked up or questioned, who do you think is turning them in? Parents and other Muslims. I can't say with great certainty what it's like in the US but I can certainly say that mosques are always considered ground 0 in the fight against home grown extremism. Muslims are trying to help keep America safe. ALMOST ALL OF THEM! Just like how ALMOST ALL the white Americans don't want American society to end.
And when you remember how few of them actually want to inflict that kind of damage, it should remind you of the likelihood of being a terror victim.

That seems significant enough to be a legitimate concern.

So a nebulous, baseless theory not based on current evidence of any type of impending action against you by an, as yet, unidentified group of Muslims, is a legitimate enough of a concern? Do you see how much of a stake FEAR has in your rationale? I don't think I'm behaving like Spock when I say that the threat is "high illogical".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because the chance of being affected by a terrorist in ANY WAY is beyond infinitesimal.

No..I should've been more clear. I was asking "why is it that you would be a "nutter" to not be afraid of muslim extremists if you lived in the middle east?"

Yes from absolutely never to about 1/100,000 as likely as a school shooting. So that's a big jump.
What is the pointof being worried about an increase like that?

I think your numbers are off...I know there's been something on the order of several dozen terrorist plots which law enforcement has stopped in the past ten years, and of course, that doesn't count the successful ones...it's far more dangerous than school shootings.

What about them?

Do you deny that you are FAR more likely to get killed by a child with a gun than with a terrorist?

Not at all...but I'm actually far less concerned with my personal safety than the possible untold millions that would die if these terrorist organizations have their way.

But there are actual, for REAL problems in the US. There are reasons RIGHT NOW, to be scared...about things RIGHT NOW. There are problems to be solved right now. So I accept that in some point in the future, some "large scale attack" might happen. But you are focussed on Muslims. Clearly, there are many hate filled people in the US who would be happy to destroy all Muslim Americans (or, if they were generous, repatriate them).
Are you concerned about the safety of Muslim Americans? Because they would ALSO die. And they don't wnat to die. And, I'd wager, MANY of them don't want US society to end.
Ok.
So, how helpful is it for moderate and liberal muslims to hear things like 'That is their goal...end of your society"? Because it's important to not conflate ALL muslims with muslim extremism. I didn't see you do that in this thread; Did I miss it?
When extremist muslims are picked up or questioned, who do you think is turning them in? Parents and other Muslims. I can't say with great certainty what it's like in the US but I can certainly say that mosques are always considered ground 0 in the fight against home grown extremism. Muslims are trying to help keep America safe. ALMOST ALL OF THEM! Just like how ALMOST ALL the white Americans don't want American society to end.
And when you remember how few of them actually want to inflict that kind of damage, it should remind you of the likelihood of being a terror victim.
So a nebulous, baseless theory not based on current evidence of any type of impending action against you by an, as yet, unidentified group of Muslims, is a legitimate enough of a concern? Do you see how much of a stake FEAR has in your rationale? I don't think I'm behaving like Spock when I say that the threat is "high illogical".

Ok....you know, I was nice enough to provide a link...did you read it? It details how one (and now there are many more) muslim terrorist organization has been trying to get its hands on weapons of mass destruction for about a decade (not that they stopped, but that information isn't available)...multiple times every year. You know why they haven't succeeded? Mainly because we've put in a lot of effort at stopping them.

I really can't stress this enough...yes, it's a problem, it's a big big problem. It's not fake, it's not made up...there's a large network of muslim radicals out there who want you, your nation, and everyone in it dead. They want your way of life destroyed. They want to replace it with their relatively awful Islamic way of life. It's not stopping...it's not going away...it's actually getting worse?

I totally understand that you're more concerned about drunk drivers...but everyone in the U.S. can drive drunk tonight and there's still a U.S. tomorrow. If one Islamic terrorist gets his hands on an active smallpox culture...then the end of your society begins the next day. Yes it's a legitimate concern.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because the chance of being affected by a terrorist in ANY WAY is beyond infinitesimal.



Yes from absolutely never to about 1/100,000 as likely as a school shooting. So that's a big jump.
What is the pointof being worried about an increase like that?



What about them?

Do you deny that you are FAR more likely to get killed by a child with a gun than with a terrorist?


But there are actual, for REAL problems in the US. There are reasons RIGHT NOW, to be scared...about things RIGHT NOW. There are problems to be solved right now. So I accept that in some point in the future, some "large scale attack" might happen. But you are focussed on Muslims. Clearly, there are many hate filled people in the US who would be happy to destroy all Muslim Americans (or, if they were generous, repatriate them).
Are you concerned about the safety of Muslim Americans? Because they would ALSO die. And they don't wnat to die. And, I'd wager, MANY of them don't want US society to end.
Ok.
So, how helpful is it for moderate and liberal muslims to hear things like 'That is their goal...end of your society"? Because it's important to not conflate ALL muslims with muslim extremism. I didn't see you do that in this thread; Did I miss it?
When extremist muslims are picked up or questioned, who do you think is turning them in? Parents and other Muslims. I can't say with great certainty what it's like in the US but I can certainly say that mosques are always considered ground 0 in the fight against home grown extremism. Muslims are trying to help keep America safe. ALMOST ALL OF THEM! Just like how ALMOST ALL the white Americans don't want American society to end.
And when you remember how few of them actually want to inflict that kind of damage, it should remind you of the likelihood of being a terror victim.
So a nebulous, baseless theory not based on current evidence of any type of impending action against you by an, as yet, unidentified group of Muslims, is a legitimate enough of a concern? Do you see how much of a stake FEAR has in your rationale? I don't think I'm behaving like Spock when I say that the threat is "high illogical".

Sorry, I totally skipped over your question about whether or not I care for their safety...no, not really. I'm not just an atheist, I'm an antitheist....I'm not fond of overly religious people and I think the world is better off without them. It's not just muslims though, christians, jews, buddhists, etc....you name it, I think the world is better off without them. I don't like having to argue with the same people over and over about freedom of speech. I don't like arguing with the same people over and over about why gays should have the same rights as everyone else. It's funny, but somewhat disturbing when I have to explain to someone the world is round....or the holocaust happened...or evolution is true. Christianity isn't doing the world any favors....and Islam seems to somehow be doing even less.

However, in the interest of civil discourse, I tend to keep these opinions to myself. Anything else?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

We have people attacking Islamic extremism as some kind of justification for hate crimes directed at Muslims.

No we don't...again...for the 5th time.

We have people explaining why it's happening, that's not the same as justification or trying to rationalize it...it's just that, and explanation.

Are you that desperate to keep your "the minority/underdog is always in the right, the oppressive majority is always in the wrong" stance in tact that you'll literally ignore the points of my post 5 times in a row and keep trying to shift it into this nonsensical argument about how "people are trying to justify hate crimes".?

C'mon, let's have an honest conversation about this. It seems like all of your threads turn out this way. Anytime someone provides an explanation that you don't like or doesn't provide an echo-chamber, it devolves into accusations of racism and "people trying to justify wrongdoing against minority groups".

You seem to have a one track mind when it comes to these sort of topics.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

But allow me this: Why is it that we have to acknowledge other people's unwillingness to step back and consider data that suggests real areas of concern?

Show me proof that domestic terrorism in the name of Islam SHOULD be a signficant concern to people over, say, leaving an unlocked gun in a bedside table; or being trampled by cows; or slipping in a bathtub.

While terrorist attacks are rare (in general), high profile, large scale ones scare people more than a bunch of small isolated incidents. So, in terms of "terrorism", events like the Boston bombings and Pulse are more "terrifying" to large segments of the public than say, 20-30 incidents of store robberies, or 3000 individual murders spread out over a period of 6 months.

When you have large scale attacks happening, and they're tied to a particular ideology, people are going to blame the doctrine for that (as they should...to ignore a religion's doctrine is to not understand why certain religious people do certain things). Like I used in an example before, people who practice Jainism wear screens over the mouths because they're so peaceful and non-violent, that they're afraid they might accidentally ingest and kill an insect. That's not a coincidence...it's not because people born in that part of Asia are just "inherently more peaceful" than people in other of the world. Their religious teachings are the reason they're doing that.

So, when you have a religion where the teachings have some very concerning aspects, and people who are part of that religion start either A) acting out, or B) holding some very concerning views, people are going to get upset about that, and when their political opponents start trying to make them seem foolish for that by intentionally peddling false statements like "only <1% are extreme, >99% are moderates" (which is statistically false and dishonest), it's only going to make people more resentful and more likely to "take matters into their own hands".

Like I mentioned before, it's the same with the issue of police brutality. Anytime a police shooting happens, and "Blue Live Matter" apologists immediately rush to the stance that "only <1% of police are bad apples, >99% of them are good guys who just want to help people" (which is also not true much like the above statement isn't true), it makes certain members of the community resentful and more likely to take matters into their own hands.

Why, because when wrongdoing is occurring, and people who aren't personally affected by it either rationalize it, or ignore it, the people who are concerned with the problem are going to become increasingly frustrated. Again, it doesn't justify the acting out that occurs, but it just explains why it's more likely to happen.

 

[JoeP222w]

The FBI is not an unbiased organization.

Also, the label "hate crime" is completely inaccurate misnomer. It claims to know the heart of the individual committing the crime. Moreover, it is completely arbitrary as to what is "hate".

For example, I hate abortion because I believe it is a modern day genocide far worse than what happened in Nazi Germany. But that in no way means I want abortion advocates dead, beaten up or want abortuaries blown up. God changes the heart of man, not me and not any other human.

 

[rambot]

Sorry, I totally skipped over your question about whether or not I care for their safety...no, not really. I'm not just an atheist, I'm an antitheist....I'm not fond of overly religious people and I think the world is better off without them. It's not just muslims though, christians, jews, buddhists, etc....you name it, I think the world is better off without them. I don't like having to argue with the same people over and over about freedom of speech.

whoa. cold. So you think it'd be great if some people died because you don't like having to have an argument?

I don't like arguing with the same people over and over about why gays should have the same rights as everyone else. It's funny, but somewhat disturbing when I have to explain to someone the world is round....or the holocaust happened...or evolution is true. Christianity isn't doing the world any favors....and Islam seems to somehow be doing even less.

Christian organization tend to walk and act pretty humbly with what we do but it is an ignorant mistake to think Christianity isn't doing good in the world. But, much like some anti-theists or sufis, some of christians are jerks.
Jerks tend to get in the news a lot

No..I should've been more clear. I was asking "why is it that you would be a "nutter" to not be afraid of muslim extremists if you lived in the middle east?"

I'm sure you've noticed the war and unrest going on. Over there. WAAAAAAAAAAAAY over there; On the opposite side of the world. EVERYONE except the extremists are affraid of the extremists because there is an actual threat there. In fact, as terrible as 9/11 was, there were only 78 deaths due to terrorism in the US for over 40 yuear

I think your numbers are off...I know there's been something on the order of several dozen terrorist plots which law enforcement has stopped in the past ten years, and of course, that doesn't count the successful ones...it's far more dangerous than school shootings.

Sorry. I realize in retrospect that I was making a different and stupid comparison in my mind.
But comparing simply terror attacks V school shootings just for FYI:
School shootings in 2016: 15
terror attacks: 7

Not at all...but I'm actually far less concerned with my personal safety than the possible untold millions that would die if these terrorist organizations have their way.

Why keep it at millions? Why not just say billions? No wait.....TRILLIONS would die at the hands of terrorists!

Ok....you know, I was nice enough to provide a link...did you read it? It details how one (and now there are many more) muslim terrorist organization has been trying to get its hands on weapons of mass destruction for about a decade (not that they stopped, but that information isn't available)...multiple times every year. You know why they haven't succeeded? Mainly because we've put in a lot of effort at stopping them.

And isn't that fantastic that your security forces are doing their jobs!
What did you hope I took away from that?

I really can't stress this enough...yes, it's a problem, it's a big big problem. It's not fake, it's not made up...there's a large network of muslim radicals out there who want you, your nation, and everyone in it dead. They want your way of life destroyed. They want to replace it with their relatively awful Islamic way of life. It's not stopping...it's not going away...it's actually getting worse?

I disagree. I do agree that it is not fake or made up. I simply just don't see it as the threat that you do.

I totally understand that you're more concerned about drunk drivers...but everyone in the U.S. can drive drunk tonight and there's still a U.S. tomorrow. If one Islamic terrorist gets his hands on an active smallpox culture...then the end of your society begins the next day. Yes it's a legitimate concern.

It's taking everything in my power to not tease you for choosing small pox.
Also, it seems weird that you worry MORE about a hypothetical "threat" than to a very real threat, I guess.
I'll tell you this: if there was one day every year where everyone but me was required to be drunk behind the wheel and I didn't know what day it is, I would rather some idiot terrorist got the small pox vaccine.



[/QUOTE]

While terrorist attacks are rare (in general), high profile, large scale ones scare people more than a bunch of small isolated incidents. So, in terms of "terrorism", events like the Boston bombings and Pulse are more "terrifying" to large segments of the public than say, 20-30 incidents of store robberies, or 3000 individual murders spread out over a period of 6 months.

When you have large scale attacks happening, and they're tied to a particular ideology, people are going to blame the doctrine for that (as they should...to ignore a religion's doctrine is to not understand why certain religious people do certain things). Like I used in an example before, people who practice Jainism wear screens over the mouths because they're so peaceful and non-violent, that they're afraid they might accidentally ingest and kill an insect. That's not a coincidence...it's not because people born in that part of Asia are just "inherently more peaceful" than people in other of the world. Their religious teachings are the reason they're doing that.

So, when you have a religion where the teachings have some very concerning aspects, and people who are part of that religion start either A) acting out, or B) holding some very concerning views, people are going to get upset about that, and when their political opponents start trying to make them seem foolish for that by intentionally peddling false statements like "only <1% are extreme, >99% are moderates" (which is statistically false and dishonest), it's only going to make people more resentful and more likely to "take matters into their own hands".

Like I mentioned before, it's the same with the issue of police brutality. Anytime a police shooting happens, and "Blue Live Matter" apologists immediately rush to the stance that "only <1% of police are bad apples, >99% of them are good guys who just want to help people" (which is also not true much like the above statement isn't true), it makes certain members of the community resentful and more likely to take matters into their own hands.

Why, because when wrongdoing is occurring, and people who aren't personally affected by it either rationalize it, or ignore it, the people who are concerned with the problem are going to become increasingly frustrated. Again, it doesn't justify the acting out that occurs, but it just explains why it's more likely to happen.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes from absolutely never to about 1/100,000 as likely as a school shooting. So that's a big jump.
What is the point of being worried about an increase like that?

To distract us from the next school shooting? We're due any day now.

 

[Ana the Ist]

whoa. cold. So you think it'd be great if some people died because you don't like having to have an argument?

Is that what I said? No...of course I don't want people breaking the law.

What I am saying is that I won't be doing anything to support them. Remember that big muslim march for atheist rights? Yeah, me neither.

Christian organization tend to walk and act pretty humbly with what we do but it is an ignorant mistake to think Christianity isn't doing good in the world. But, much like some anti-theists or sufis, some of christians are jerks.
Jerks tend to get in the news a lot

I'm sure you see it that way...but unfortunately it seems like with every hospital opened, every poor person fed, every child clothed, there's a heaping dose of christianity spooned out with it and that doesn't help.

I don't want to give the wrong impression. As long as you don't preach, proselytize, attempt to convert, or indoctrinate your children...I've got no problem at all with whatever you believe because it will eventually die with you.

I'm sure you've noticed the war and unrest going on. Over there. WAAAAAAAAAAAAY over there; On the opposite side of the world. EVERYONE except the extremists are affraid of the extremists because there is an actual threat there. In fact, as terrible as 9/11 was, there were only 78 deaths due to terrorism in the US for over 40 yuear

Yeah, it's pretty awful...but how do things get that way?

Sorry. I realize in retrospect that I was making a different and stupid comparison in my mind.
But comparing simply terror attacks V school shootings just for FYI:
School shootings in 2016: 15
terror attacks: 7

And where are you pulling that from?

Why keep it at millions?

Because that's what the death count would be from even a small, say "briefcase nuke", in a large metropolitan area.

I disagree. I do agree that it is not fake or made up. I simply just don't see it as the threat that you do.
It's taking everything in my power to not tease you for choosing small pox.

Smallpox was the example...because I was hoping you'd remember the anthrax attempts and realize that it's a distinct possibility that biological weapons of mass destruction could be used. I'm aware that the CDC has lots of smallpox vaccines. I'm also aware that before these threats...they didn't. The good thing is that even if most people are blissfully ignorant...those who should care do.

Also, it seems weird that you worry MORE about a hypothetical "threat" than to a very real threat, I guess.

What's the real threat you're referring to?

I'll tell you this: if there was one day every year where everyone but me was required to be drunk behind the wheel and I didn't know what day it is, I would rather some idiot terrorist got the small pox vaccine.

Well I don't think he would do much damage with the vaccine.

 

[rambot]

Is that what I said? No....

Well you said the world would be a better place with without us and it seemed the initial arguments you gave were around frustration with having to repeat yourself.

What I am saying is that I won't be doing anything to support them. Remember that big muslim march for atheist rights? Yeah, me neither.

So helping others is contingent on them helping you?

I'm sure you see it that way...but unfortunately it seems like with every hospital opened, every poor person fed, every child clothed, there's a heaping dose of christianity spooned out with it and that doesn't help.

yeah but that's not true. At all. There are specific organizations or programs that DO do that (I can say that our church has a free ESL class that has ran for 4 years. Next year will be the first year they are doing only a bible study for the program but before that, it was secular). Our church donates money to local homeless shelters with no strings attached; shelters affiliated with demonimations in our church will feed folks and have a chapel after IF people choose to attend but they certainly don't have to (and no judgements are given if they do). MY parents did relief work in Africa for over a decade; managing the distribution of farm tools and/or animals through our church's organization. Help was never contingent on faith. Sometimes at drop offs, people would burst into song; but when they helped in Muslim heavy countries like The Sudan, there were no qualms about it.

I don't want to give the wrong impression. As long as you don't preach, proselytize, attempt to convert, or indoctrinate your children...I've got no problem at all with whatever you believe because it will eventually die with you.

Oh, I absolutely will do that with my children. Everyone indoctrinates their children in some way and I disagree when people suggest that they do no such thing and allow their children to simply flutter about in the world to create their own meaning.

Yeah, it's pretty awful...but how do things get that way?

There's been conflict between sects for centuries and centuries. Finding oil under their feet was probably the WORST thing that could happen because that sectarian violence that was happening within their religion was deepened when foreign interests started to meddle in their politics (to get a better shot at their oil).
That's how it started.

And where are you pulling that from?

The wikipedia pages for "US school shootings" and "US terrorism". They list events. Maybe not the greatest source but it's cited at least.

Because that's what the death count would be from even a small, say "briefcase nuke", in a large metropolitan area.

But I think the number of steps involved to make that happen makes the whole scenario incomprehensibly unlikely.

Smallpox was the example...because I was hoping you'd remember the anthrax attempts and realize that it's a distinct possibility that biological weapons of mass destruction could be used. I'm aware that the CDC has lots of smallpox vaccines. I'm also aware that before these threats...they didn't. The good thing is that even if most people are blissfully ignorant...those who should care do.

So to be clear, there aren't too many people who are "blissfully ignorant". There are people who simply view the evidence as less disconcerting than you. Let's not pretend you have ALL the information and those that aren't scared are simply "missing information that you are privy to".

What's the real threat you're referring to?

Slipping in a bathtub.

Well I don't think he would do much damage with the vaccine.

Oh burn!!! HA! I can't believe I put in the word vaccine? What was I thinking?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well you said the world would be a better place with without us and it seemed the initial arguments you gave were around frustration with having to repeat yourself.
So helping others is contingent on them helping you?

I do think the world would be a better place without the religious...yes...though I don't see how you take that statement and translate it into a joy of murder.

You can't be totally unaware of the schism between believers and atheists in this nation, can you? It's taken a lot of secular effort to push against the religious people in this nation in order to secure the rights of everyone.

Given the above (whether or not you see it that way, I see it that way) why in the world would I make an effort to support those who ostensibly would just become another group I'd have to fight against to retain my rights?

I don't think people should physically harm the members of the Westboro Baptist Church....but do I get upset when people insult them or ridicule their many awful beliefs? Absolutely not. Would I ever stand alongside them in an effort to reduce the ridicule they receive? Nope...and I'm not ashamed of that either.

yeah but that's not true. At all. There are specific organizations or programs that DO do that (I can say that our church has a free ESL class that has ran for 4 years. Next year will be the first year they are doing only a bible study for the program but before that, it was secular). Our church donates money to local homeless shelters with no strings attached; shelters affiliated with demonimations in our church will feed folks and have a chapel after IF people choose to attend but they certainly don't have to (and no judgements are given if they do). MY parents did relief work in Africa for over a decade; managing the distribution of farm tools and/or animals through our church's organization. Help was never contingent on faith. Sometimes at drop offs, people would burst into song; but when they helped in Muslim heavy countries like The Sudan, there were no qualms about it.

Hey man...that's just swell. Even if it's true though, in my beliefs, the smallest problem caused by religion is the distorted view of reality it promotes and reinforces. Even if every church in the world did what yours did...the "good" you're doing doesn't even come close to outweighing the "bad" you're doing.

Does that make sense? I'm not asking if you agree (I'm sure you don't) I'm just asking if you understand my viewpoint.

Oh, I absolutely will do that with my children. Everyone indoctrinates their children in some way and I disagree when people suggest that they do no such thing and allow their children to simply flutter about in the world to create their own meaning.

Indoctrinating children isn't the problem though...it's the beliefs that you're indoctrinating a child with.

There's been conflict between sects for centuries and centuries. Finding oil under their feet was probably the WORST thing that could happen because that sectarian violence that was happening within their religion was deepened when foreign interests started to meddle in their politics (to get a better shot at their oil).
That's how it started.

Well, let's be honest...it's not as if violence between muslims over Islam started with the discovery of oil or meddling of foreign interests....right? Violence between muslims over Islam has more or less been a mainstay since the creation of Islam. Why do you think that is?

The wikipedia pages for "US school shootings" and "US terrorism". They list events. Maybe not the greatest source but it's cited at least.

Gotcha...yeah perhaps not the best source.

But I think the number of steps involved to make that happen makes the whole scenario incomprehensibly unlikely.

Why? Because Russia is so stable they'd never have lost such powerful military hardware like that? Or that they'd never supply our enemies with those weapons? Or is it because you think getting something like that into the nation is far too difficult?

I'm seriously asking because it's really only about a three step process. 1. Buy/acquire weapon. 2. Transport to Mexico. 3. Illegally cross border with weapon. From that point on...any further steps are essentially a cakewalk in a nation where people aren't suspicious of muslims.

So to be clear, there aren't too many people who are "blissfully ignorant". There are people who simply view the evidence as less disconcerting than you. Let's not pretend you have ALL the information and those that aren't scared are simply "missing information that you are privy to".
Slipping in a bathtub.

We have two bathrooms...and the one we use to clean up only has a shower. There's no real bathtub to slip in. However, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't it be a relatively easy fix? Put one of those suction cup mats in the shower for extra traction...problem solved. By comparison...Islamic terrorism isn't so easily fixed. I suppose on some level the fact that you don't consider it a threat is a good thing...it means the right people are doing their jobs.

Oh burn!!! HA! I can't believe I put in the word vaccine? What was I thinking?

It was good for a laugh.

 

[rambot]

I do think the world would be a better place without the religious...yes...though I don't see how you take that statement and translate it into a joy of murder.

"joy of murder"?

You can't be totally unaware of the schism between believers and atheists in this nation, can you? It's taken a lot of secular effort to push against the religious people in this nation in order to secure the rights of everyone.

There are christians involved in those fights too.

Given the above (whether or not you see it that way, I see it that way) why in the world would I make an effort to support those who ostensibly would just become another group I'd have to fight against to retain my rights?

Because that is not the current situation. Why not do it because it's the right thing to do? Why not show some kindness to your "enemy"?

Hey man...that's just swell. Even if it's true though, in my beliefs, the smallest problem caused by religion is the distorted view of reality it promotes and reinforces. Even if every church in the world did what yours did...the "good" you're doing doesn't even come close to outweighing the "bad" you're doing.

Help me understand the "bad". Because you've said it a few times but I don't really understand what you mean.

Indoctrinating children isn't the problem though...it's the beliefs that you're indoctrinating a child with.

If a child comes to the belief on their own, what does that mean to you?

Well, let's be honest...it's not as if violence between muslims over Islam started with the discovery of oil or meddling of foreign interests....right?

I acknowledged that.

Violence between muslims over Islam has more or less been a mainstay since the creation of Islam. Why do you think that is?

Passionate beliefs inspire irrational violence. I think it's a human condition.

Gotcha...yeah perhaps not the best source.

Gotcha? It's not THAT gotcha. All items are cited. No reason to not take those numbers.

Why? Because Russia is so stable they'd never have lost such powerful military hardware like that? Or that they'd never supply our enemies with those weapons? Or is it because you think getting something like that into the nation is far too difficult?

Don't forget the US has lost some too.

I'm seriously asking because it's really only about a three step process. 1. Buy/acquire weapon. 2. Transport to Mexico. 3. Illegally cross border with weapon. From that point on...any further steps are essentially a cakewalk in a nation where people aren't suspicious of muslims.

And going to the moon is three steps:
1) Build spaceship
2) Take off and fly to the moon
3) Land on the moon.

We have two bathrooms...and the one we use to clean up only has a shower. There's no real bathtub to slip in. However, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't it be a relatively easy fix? Put one of those suction cup mats in the shower for extra traction...problem solved. By comparison...Islamic terrorism isn't so easily fixed. I suppose on some level the fact that you don't consider it a threat is a good thing...it means the right people are doing their jobs.

And here is the part you'll hate:
I think this way specifically because of my faith. I have faith that those people are doing their jobs and, if anything, probably/usually work within the given law. I see evidence that their work is having a positive impact with foiled plots and arrested potential terrorists. I will let them figure that out.

My job? I just have to love everyone. I need to treat them with respect and consideration. I need to trust them and listen. I believe that for an entire culture to have a better understanding, those groups intermingle and need to talk. More talking makes things better. Not argue about issues but get to know one another first.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"joy of murder"?

You asked if I "thought it would be great if people died"...I assume you didn't mean from old age.

There are christians involved in those fights too.

I'm aware of that.

Because that is not the current situation. Why not do it because it's the right thing to do? Why not show some kindness to your "enemy"?

I don't think it's the right thing to do...

Help me understand the "bad". Because you've said it a few times but I don't really understand what you mean.
If a child comes to the belief on their own, what does that mean to you?
I acknowledged that.

This isn't really the thread for me to go into a detailed personal outlook on religion. If you want a short explanation...I'd ask you to consider what kind of damage can occur in one person's life if they hold of view of themselves, or others, that is far removed from reality. Now consider what kind of damage can be done to mankind if say, a billion people held that view. Does that help?

Passionate beliefs inspire irrational violence. I think it's a human condition.

They can...but arguably, I can't recall any instances of atheists killing atheists over atheism...can you?

Gotcha? It's not THAT gotcha. All items are cited. No reason to not take those numbers.

I think you're reading into the "gotcha" wrong...I typically use it as an expression for "I understand you". I don't think I ever use it as an expression for...whatever it is you're thinking here.

I'm not saying those numbers are wrong...but I have my doubts about whether or not they're complete.

Don't forget the US has lost some too.

That doesn't exactly lessen the danger they pose.

And going to the moon is three steps:
1) Build spaceship
2) Take off and fly to the moon
3) Land on the moon.
And here is the part you'll hate:
I think this way specifically because of my faith. I have faith that those people are doing their jobs and, if anything, probably/usually work within the given law. I see evidence that their work is having a positive impact with foiled plots and arrested potential terrorists. I will let them figure that out.

And if those same people were to tell you that terrorist threats to the U.S. are now worse than they were before 9-11 (either more numerous or more dangerous) would you accept their viewpoint?

My job? I just have to love everyone. I need to treat them with respect and consideration. I need to trust them and listen. I believe that for an entire culture to have a better understanding, those groups intermingle and need to talk. More talking makes things better. Not argue about issues but get to know one another first.

I see...and while I find that admirable, do you think that approach can work with any group? For example...will hanging out and talking with more nazis somehow diminish their awful views?

 

[rambot]

You asked if I "thought it would be great if people died"...I assume you didn't mean from old age.

I'm not insane enough to think you are insane enough to want to murder people.
I just think it's cold to want anyone dead. No offence; FWIW, I would say that about anyone.

This isn't really the thread for me to go into a detailed personal outlook on religion. If you want a short explanation...I'd ask you to consider what kind of damage can occur in one person's life if they hold of view of themselves, or others, that is far removed from reality.

I think that every time I come on here and read what folks have to say about Muslims.

Now consider what kind of damage can be done to mankind if say, a billion people held that view. Does that help?

Theoretically, it would. But I disagree with the premises.

They can...but arguably, I can't recall any instances of atheists killing atheists over atheism...can you?

Give it time. There is nothing exceptional about atheists; they are just as human as everyone else. So long as those views are held passionately, we will see trouble eventually.

I think you're reading into the "gotcha" wrong...I typically use it as an expression for "I understand you". I don't think I ever use it as an expression for...whatever it is you're thinking here.

I'm not saying those numbers are wrong...but I have my doubts about whether or not they're complete.

Apologies. And I agree on the last sentence. I was just too lazy to try to flesh it out more.

And if those same people were to tell you that terrorist threats to the U.S. are now worse than they were before 9-11 (either more numerous or more dangerous) would you accept their viewpoint?

That's a two parter:
1) Probably yes.
BUT
2) The investigative powers and legislation in place is now better able to deal with those threats than before 9-11. You'll remember that most of those involved in that attack were on the radar of your security organizations.

I see...and while I find that admirable, do you think that approach can work with any group? For example...will hanging out and talking with more nazis somehow diminish their awful views?

Yes. Absolutely, positively yes!
Black Man Gets KKK Members To Disavow By Befriending Them | HuffPost
I would give the rambot guarantee that that method of conversion will have ten fold the impact of:
1) Distrust
2) Legislation outlawing it
3) sowing seeds of dischord
4) insulting/belittling.

AND this one:
The white flight of Derek Black

People laugh at hippies and Christ but Love is a FAR more powerful tool than the angry give it credit.

 

[MrSpikey]

Maybe you're missing the point of what I was trying to say.

<Huge snip>

Nope, I don't think I am.

Provide some alternative figures, using your alternative definitions, to justify your point or you are just speculating, based on your own opinion.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Hate Crimes Against Muslims Continue to Rise in 2016

Maybe they should stop being Muslim then... Isn't this just proof that the American culture rejects islam?

Though, I wish our culture would prefer passing messages on verbally, and not violently, we should still celebrate the fact that our American culture lives *ALONGSIDE* our government with it's laws, and the two are seperate.

 

[Landon Caeli]

...Though technically, I'm not even really sure there has been any violence against Muslims since "violence" is not the same as a "hate crime".

 

[SummerMadness]

Maybe they should stop being Muslim then... Isn't this just proof that the American culture rejects islam?

Though, I wish our culture would prefer passing messages on verbally, and not violently, we should still celebrate the fact that our American culture lives *ALONGSIDE* our government with it's laws, and the two are seperate.

The actions of a bigoted minority attacking a group it dislikes does not mean American culture rejects Islam. Islam is part of American culture, so stop talking about "our culture," when it clearly does not reflect American culture.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The actions of a bigoted minority attacking a group it dislikes does not mean American culture rejects Islam. Islam is part of American culture, so stop talking about "our culture," when it clearly does not reflect American culture.

Just because you wish it, doesn't make it so. American culture largely rejects Islam, and this is not something you can go and fix by passing laws. We should respect the view of the majority.

Poll: Sinking Perceptions Of Islam

Poll: Americans Skeptical of Islam and Arabs

More Than Half Of Americans Have Unfavorable View Of Islam, Poll Finds | HuffPost

Poll: Majority Of Americans View Islam Negatively, Including Democrats - Breitbart