Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[Fish14]

a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

 

[Adstar]

a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

A :: Jesus died for whomsoever Believes Him and trusts in the Atonement He secured by His dead for the forgivness of their sins..

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. thats not unbelief..

 

[Fish14]

A :: Jesus died for whomsoever Believes Him and trusts in the Atonement He secured by His dead for the forgivness of their sins..

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. thats not unbelief..

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, specific as it was to the Pharisees’ situation, cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth, and no one can personally see Jesus perform a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The only unpardonable sin today is that of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in his rejection of Christ. The Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convicting the unsaved of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). If a person resists that conviction and remains unrepentant, then he is choosing hell over heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and the object of faith is Jesus (Acts 16:31). There is no forgiveness for someone who dies without faith in Christ.
- Got Questions

 

[Adstar]

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, specific as it was to the Pharisees’ situation, cannot be duplicated today.

Oh yes it can.. I am a Christian, I am indwelled by the Holy Spirit .. If a person accuses me of being of the devil or says that in some way i have a demon , that i am possesed.. Then that person has just declaired that the Holy Spirit that dwells in my and guides me is the devil / demon... They have just blasphemed the Holy Spirit..

Jesus Christ is not on earth, and no one can personally see Jesus perform a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit.

It's not just Jesus.. The blasphemy was not against Jesus.. It was against the holy Spirit that was with Jesus. You don't need to have the presence of Jesus to blaspheme the Holy Spirit..

The only unpardonable sin today is that of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in his rejection of Christ.

unbelief ?? unbelief in what?

Rejection of Christ.. Yes i would agree with you there.

The Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convicting the unsaved of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). If a person resists that conviction and remains unrepentant, then he is choosing hell over heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and the object of faith is Jesus (Acts 16:31). There is no forgiveness for someone who dies without faith in Christ.
- Got Questions

One must activily reject the Message of Jesus the Gospel and persist in that rejection till the day they die.. And then they shall be damned..

 

[Zoii]

a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

yea well..... I struggle with that. I find it very hard to accept a Godly Jewish man will go to hell or those born before Jesus will go to hell. I find it hard to accept children or those mentally incompetent will go to hell because they cannot comprehend Jesus. I find it hard to accept that good people face hell because they have another faith in God such as Judaism or Islam.

 

[DarthNeo]

B - Jesus died for EVERY sin or He was not the perfect or complete sacrifice...

 

[Late Apex]

yea well..... I struggle with that. I find it very hard to accept a Godly Jewish man will go to hell or those born before Jesus will go to hell. I find it hard to accept children or those mentally incompetent will go to hell because they cannot comprehend Jesus. I find it hard to accept that good people face hell because they have another faith in God such as Judaism or Islam.

I like to think of it this way. Is God just? Yes, absolutely. Is God merciful? Yes, absolutely. Is God loving? Yes, absolutely. Is God kind? Yes, absolutely.
Therefore, all that go to hell will JUSTLY go there. You will agree, I will agree, all God's children and God Himself will all agree. In other words, what you know now is just a glimpse of what you will know in heaven. Your knowledge and understanding will be MUCH greater and we will be "like Him" and we will see Him "as He is."

Have Faith. God will do nothing but what is pure and perfect.

 

[Zoii]

I like to think of it this way. Is God just? Yes, absolutely. Is God merciful? Yes, absolutely. Is God loving? Yes, absolutely. Is God kind? Yes, absolutely.
Therefore, all that go to hell will JUSTLY go there. You will agree, I will agree, all God's children and God Himself will all agree. In other words, what you know now is just a glimpse of what you will know in heaven. Your knowledge and understanding will be MUCH greater and we will be "like Him" and we will see Him "as He is."

Have Faith. God will do nothing but what is pure and perfect.

Ty but is that agreeing or disagreeing with my thoughts

 

[St_Worm2]

yea well..... I struggle with that. I find it very hard to accept a Godly Jewish man will go to hell or those born before Jesus will go to hell. I find it hard to accept children or those mentally incompetent will go to hell because they cannot comprehend Jesus. I find it hard to accept that good people face hell because they have another faith in God such d as Judaism or Islam.

Hi Zoii, who told you that children and/or the mentally incompetent are on their way to Hell because it's not possible for them to believe in Jesus? I know neither the Bible nor the church teach that.

God makes it clear that those whose salvation depends not on Christ, but on what they themselves have done in this life (or failed to do), will be judged by Him on the basis of what they 1) know (even if it's only the "law written in their hearts" by God) and 2) what they are capable of understanding about the Law they know/possess .. e.g. Romans 2:12-16. God will 'not' judge anyone on the basis of what he/she does not know and/or does not understand.

As for "Godly" Jewish men, that would describe Jesus and the Apostles, wouldn't it

That said, here are a few very important questions for you to consider, 1) what do you make of the Incarnation and the Cross? 2) Were they necessary? 3) If you believe they were, why do you believe that?

Thanks!

In Christ,
David

Romans 2
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
.​

 

[St_Worm2]

B - Jesus died for EVERY sin or He was not the perfect or complete sacrifice...

Hi DN, assuming this is true, what does it mean for the reprobate, for the non-elect who will never come to faith and be saved? IOW, what purpose does His death serve in their lives/what difference does it make to them?

Thanks!

--David

 

[DarthNeo]

Hi DN, assuming this is true, what does it mean for the reprobate, for the non-elect who will never come to faith and be saved? IOW, what purpose does His death serve in their lives/what difference does it make to them?

Thanks!

--David

Well David, I don't believe there are any that won't have a CHOICE at being saved. But for the sake of argument, let's take your stance, whether they are elect or not, in order for Jesus to be the PERFECT, atoning sacrifice, for God's wrath to be satisfied toward sin, Christ had to die for EVERY sin - past, present, future.

 

[St_Worm2]

Well David, I don't believe there are any that won't have a CHOICE at being saved. But for the sake of argument, let's take your stance, whether they are elect or not, in order for Jesus to be the PERFECT, atoning sacrifice, for God's wrath to be satisfied toward sin, Christ had to die for EVERY sin - past, present, future.

I'm not sure I understand How does Christ's death satisfy God's wrath against someone who does not come to faith and believe? What purpose was/is there in His dying for their sins? How does His death on the Cross make a difference to them?

Thanks!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

Hi Fish14, we know that no one can come to Christ unless they are first "drawn" by His Father .. John 6:44.

We also know that ALL who the Father draws and gives to His Son will come to Him, and that NONE of these will be lost/all will be raised to eternal life .. John 6:37-40.

Therefore, if ALL (meaning literally everyone who has ever lived) are "drawn" by the Father, then ALL will necessarily be saved, yes?

This would mean the Atonement is UN-limited in the most universal sense, of course. However, if you do not believe the Atonement is Universal (I do not), that can only mean one thing, that God draws only some of us, and that the Atonement is therefore, "particular" or "limited" as a result.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" ~John 6:44​

 

[Marvin Knox]

a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

I'm with John Calvin on this. But I am not with many who call themselves "Calvinists" today.

Calvin clearly expressed his opinion on the subject of the extent of the atonement in his commentary on 1 John 2:2 as well as many other places.

1 John 2:2--"he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world"----------------------- "CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. and in the goodness of God is OFFERED UNTO ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION, HIS BLOOD BEING SHED NOT FOR A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since without exception he SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope."

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Marvin, I, along with Calvin, believe the call to come to Christ to be saved is an outward call to ALL, w/o exception. In fact, I know of none in the Calvinist world who would disagree with that (e.g. Sproul, MacArthur, etc....).

However, Calvin always chooses the words he uses very carefully, doesn't he. The "whole world"/"whole human race" can mean ALL w/o exception, of course or, more Biblically, it can also mean "all w/o distinction", IOW, both Jews AND Greeks, for instance, and it is the latter wording, "without distinction", that Calvin chose to use in the quote you posited for us.

Calvinists, Arminians and Catholics all agree that Christ's death was "sufficient" to atone for the sins of all in this world w/o exception, but that his death was efficient (actually atoned/paid the price) for the elect only (or those who believe, depending on which angle you're looking at it all from), because if His death paid the price/made satisfaction for everyone's sins before God, then everyone's sins would be forgiven and ALL .. w/o exception .. would be saved.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Marvin Knox]

............ (because if His death paid the price for everyone's sins, then everyone's sins would be forgiven and ALL .. w/o exception .. would be saved).
David

Not necesarily.

If all things are reconcieled and summed up in the Word of God - and if Christ suffers eternal punishment as well as eternal reward (as it were - i.e. the "Lion and the Lamb") - then Christ could bear the sins of the lost even as they join Him in eternal punishment (as it were).

He could bear the sins of the saved even as they join Him in eternal glory and bliss.

The point is that if there is any conceivable way that these concepts could play out that does not demand "limited atonement" then there is no reason to state limited atonement as a sure and sound doctrine.

Sure - it seems logical in strictly human thinking. But it may not be in the thinking and eternal actions of God.

Better, IMO, to simply say it the way that the scriptures say it and not go beyond what they say.

What they say is that Christ died for the sins of the entire world and that the entire world was reconciled to God in Christ.

Why not leave it at that?

The other 4 points of so called Calvinism stand up to logical and scriptural scrutiny.

Why add one that doesn't - particualarly when it is so offensive to many?

Please don't bother to make the case again. I've heard it all and actually I've taught it all in my 70+ years.

I just don't now believe that "limited atonement" (as usually stated) is a necessarily logical conclusion - and it certainly isn't clearly taught in the scriptures.

If we are talking about "effective" atonement only - then I and most Arminians agree.

But, with so "limited atonement" as often taught by Calvinists, we both know that "effective" atonement alone is not what is being taught.

After rather blindly teaching Reformed doctrines (most of which are correct) for many years, I re-thought this issue and decided that it was not necessarily correct and that it offended millions for no good reason.

Obviously "TULIP" had to go. But one should not keep following tradition just because it is comfortable to do so with others in the "Reformed" tradition.

What is being taught is offensive to millions of Christians and, IMO, rightly so.

 

[St_Worm2]

In what manner has/will Christ suffer ETERNALLY He suffered "once for all time", not many times, and certainly not for an eternity. Apart from Him, all will suffer eternally for their sins, but He won't (and He does not today ).

 

[sdowney717]

In what manner has/will Christ suffer ETERNALLY He suffered "once for all time", not many times, and certainly not for an eternity. Apart from Him, all will suffer eternally for their sins, but He won't (and He does not today ).

Yes his suffering is over, as He, Christ has been glorified again with the Father. He bore the sins of many people. The wages-penalty of sin is death, Christ died and is now alive forevermore, and experiences death no longer.
He poured out His soul and bore their sins, and so He had to die, but those words are in the past tenses.
Isaiah 53:12
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[EmSw]

Yes his suffering is over, as He, Christ has been glorified again with the Father. He bore the sins of many people. The wages-penalty of sin is death, Christ died and is now alive forevermore, and experiences death no longer.
He poured out His soul and bore their sins, and so He had to die, but those words are in the past tenses.
Isaiah 53:12
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

The pardon and remission of the penalty is repentance for forgiveness.

 

[DarthNeo]

I'm not sure I understand How does Christ's death satisfy God's wrath against someone who does not come to faith and believe? What purpose was/is there in His dying for their sins? How does His death on the Cross make a difference to them?

Thanks!

--David

Christ's death defeated sin in TOTAL. All sin - there is not ONE sin that is not atoned for, this way, He was the COMPLETE propitiation for sin, everyone has the chance/choice to be saved, and no one is with excuse, no one can say, "but God, you didn't let Christ die for my sins, so how can I be saved?"...