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Uber Genius

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What exactly do you base your claim on? I'm apparently not a "new atheist", since your claim doesn't apply to me. The only way to know if any "new atheists" actually exist would be to get an admission that your claim applies to them. I don't think I've ever seen that from any of the atheists here, nor do I see it in print or video.
We are documenting these one at a time with detailed explications thus the "1" behind the "Tricks"

We have just seen many jump on the conflation of defining atheism by its lack of beliefs. This site is rife with "I don't have the burden of proof,"

Now a weak agnostic could properly state that claim. But since you have subsumed (equivocated) those out of existence) and relabed them atheists, we will have to drill down on every term to find out how each individual uses them.
 
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Gene Parmesan

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This comment brought to you by Zebras, clouds, platonic forms everywhere, babies, and every agnostic who ever lived who according to new atheist definitions are all
ATHEISTS!
Zebras, clouds, platonic forms everywhere, babies are also agnostic as well then, I guess! Do you now have a problem with the definition of agnostic?
 
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Uber Genius

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I think there is something to this. In a different thread I argued that "God is not worthy of belief" is a central positive claim of atheists, and a number of atheists agreed that this does accurately describe them. Although "God does not exist" is the primary definition of atheism, I think "God is not worthy of belief" would be a good replacement for the problematic secondary definition, "Lack of belief in God." This is because it expresses the fact that the atheist is someone who has 1) consciously considered the evidence for God's existence and has 2) concluded that the evidence is insufficient for belief. Not only is this definition more accurate, but it also avoids many of the problems you have pointed out.
Just an opinion poll the way it is stated.

Who, on atheism, gets to set the criteria for epistemic "worthines?"

How would one know what is worthy?

Rodrick Chilsom highlights his problem in an early 1970s work called, "The Problem of The Criterion."
 
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Uber Genius

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Zebras, clouds, platonic forms everywhere, babies are also agnostic as well then, I guess! Do you now have a problem with the definition of agnostic?
BRAVO!

We have a convert!

Someone who finely recognizes the problem with a. Defining ontological categories (especially complex ones like doxastic claims) by their LACK of properties!

It produces confusion, and conflaion so that many propositions that stood for millennia as coherent, (e.g. Babies, platonic objects, inanimate object are not atheists, or theists) are now incoherent.

Theists - God exists
Atheist - No God Exists
Agnostic - No knowledge

Simple!

No tricks!

NO conflation to try and avoid defend a positive claim!
 
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Gene Parmesan

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BRAVO!

We have a convert!

Someone who finely recognizes the problem with a. Defining ontological categories (especially complex ones like doxastic claims) by their LACK of properties!

It produces confusion, and conflaion so that many propositions that stood for millennia as coherent, (e.g. Babies, platonic objects, inanimate object are not atheists, or theists) are now incoherent.

Theists - God exists
Atheist - No God Exists
Agnostic - No knowledge

Simple!

No tricks!

NO conflation to try and avoid defend a positive claim!
wat

You were all up in arms that you'd have to start calling everything "atheist" as if that were some kind of argument for something. I have shown you that that is totally irrelevant.

More than one word can describe someone's position at one time. I have no reason to believe gods exists. Which means I lack a belief in gods. Therefor I am an atheist. I also admit that I have no way to prove gods don't exist. Therefor I am agnostic. I have no idea why this troubles you so.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Wow.

4 agrees by equally uneducated "seekers." Impressive.

I didn't state that there are no examples of opposite property bearers as your false analogy suggests.

Just that you have conflated the 4 propositions stated above and equivocated 3!

Simple enough for someone with a degree in philosophy, so I assume you are trying to mislead people ( 4 is a reasonable number) congrats.

Once again you missed the point.

Instead of focusing on to various propositions, you use a semantic approach that any philosophy 101 professor would ding you on. You are equivocation terms

Claims 1 - P exists

Claim 2 - P does not exist

Claim 3 - P may exist or not exist

Claim 4 - It is impossible to know whether P exists or not.

These questions are typical of ontology! Why pretend (more tricks) not t know that!

Every undergrad in philosophy knows this principle.

Properties (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

You are using semantic rhetorical tricks to fool those who know nothing about philosophy or defending claims.

Thanks for providing a nice example of the tricks New atheists play.

This comment brought to you by Zebras, clouds, platonic forms everywhere, babies, and every agnostic who ever lived who according to new atheist definitions are all
ATHEISTS!

Way to conflate! Bravo.

P.s.

Please provide a response of all the properties which are LACKED by apples!

Wow...

Soooo, you didn't actually address the substance of what I actually wrote, tried to hide your own semantic shenanigans by trying to say I'm engaging in what you're actually engaging in, and adopting the typical "New Christian" rude and bullying tactics.

Yes, I'm hearby coining the term "New Christian". Defined as any Christian who doesn't care about logical, civil discourse, and instead relies on insults to mask the logical fallacies that they make. I'll be starting my "Tricks New Christians make" series soon.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Theists - God exists
Atheist - No God Exists
Agnostic - No knowledge

Theists - I believe at least one claim that a god exists.
Atheist - I disbelieve all god claims that have been presented to me.

Gnostic - Certain about claims.
Agnostic - Uncertain about claims.

What I'm showing is common usage today. You can argue until you're blue in the face against it, but atheists will continue to define themselves the way they do, and you can either get over it or cease to have productive conversations.

 
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ToddNotTodd

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More than one word can describe someone's position at one time. I have no reason to believe gods exists. Which means I lack a belief in gods. Therefor I am an atheist. I also admit that I have no way to prove gods don't exist. Therefor I am agnostic. I have no idea why this troubles you so.

Because trying to ridicule the stance you and I share (agnostic atheism) is too difficult. That, and some apologists just can't accept that our position has no burden of proof.
 
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zippy2006

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What does their "faith in popular atheists" have to do with anything then? I'm not understanding your point if what I said isn't a refutation of it. What do regular atheists have faith in popular atheists for other than what I assumed: arguing for them about arguments they never heard.

Zippy: One reason New Atheists are able to doubt the validity of arguments they haven't yet heard is because of their faith in atheist heroes.
Nicholas: If they read the arguments of the heroes and confirm them for themselves then they aren't relying on faith.
Zippy: My statement is about arguments unknown to New Atheists and the belief they have that these arguments can be met. If the arguments are unknown to them, then how are they going to read refutations? Of course they can't.​

Arguing about this deserves it's own thread.

That's probably true.

Yeah, you don't see a problem with it. Now imagine you're one of those posters that posts nothing but scripture and think how you would react to such a thread. Have you seen some of the responses to my much more benign threads?

Sure, but there are few threads that can avoid such persons altogether.

You said that simply calling theists irrational was arrogant (when it's done that simply, I agree),...

Rather, I said that calling the vast majority of all human beings irrational is arrogant.

...I showed someone explaining why all humans are irrational in a specific way. Again, nothing is an argument against the existence of God, there are only arguments that say, "your evidence is bad". His point is only a refutation of the "argument" that says "Oh yeah? Then why do so many people believe in God then, huh?!". It's an entirely plausible explanation that takes all the wind out of the sails of an argument that essentially states, "people believe, therefore it's true".

I understand the point you were making, and my response stands. I will just reiterate that, depending on the precise nature of Shermer's argument it may or may not be sound.

To say that arguments from consensus are probabilistic, you would have to look at all the times there was a consensus belief amongst humans, and then determine how often they were right.

That is one way to support such an argument.

There's no connection between "a lot of people believe this" and "this is true".

I disagree, but I don't feel like moving into a new topic in this thread.

The Earth ain't flat, slavery ain't okay, mental illness ain't caused by spirits/demons, etc... And yet some people still think all those things are true.

Even supposing you were able to produce a true counterexample, it would not defeat a probabilistic argument.
 
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Moral Orel

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My statement is about arguments unknown to New Atheists and the belief they have that these arguments can be met. If the arguments are unknown to them, then how are they going to read refutations? Of course they can't.
So the followers of New Atheists "have faith" in the spokesmen that if a new argument arises, their spokesmen will be able to shoot it down. I'm sure some don't think they need their spokesmen to be able to shoot down any new arguments too. Plenty of people think they're smarter than the folks who make it onto TV to advocate for the things they agree with. For instance, I like watching Dawkins explain evolution, but I know more about the Bible than he does. So generalizing "followers" as "having faith" is still an inappropriate sweeping generalization.
Rather, I said that calling the vast majority of all human beings irrational is arrogant.
I assumed, and I still think I'm right in that assumption, that the "vast majority of all human beings" you refer to is theists in general. Am I incorrect? If not, then my paraphrase of you is accurate. More to the point though, Shermer, by saying that bit of irrationality evolved in us, is stating that all humans are irrational, thereby including himself, so it is a far stretch to call that arrogant. You also said that such a claim avoids any epistemology, which Shermer does not avoid but instead explains its reasons. You said people ought not act like that, I showed someone not acting like that.
I understand the point you were making, and my response stands. I will just reiterate that, depending on the precise nature of Shermer's argument it may or may not be sound.
You say you understand my point, yet you still call it an "argument". It is a plausible explanation for a "why" question. It is not an "argument" that tries to prove religious people are irrational. It pokes holes in the argument that there's no good explanation for theist belief other than "it's true".
Even supposing you were able to produce a true counterexample, it would not defeat a probabilistic argument.
What, what, what? "Supposing"? Are you saying that there was no time in human history that the majority of people thought these examples were true, or are you saying that I'm wrong about my "ain'ts"? The point is that an argument ad populum is not a probabilistic argument. Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it more likely to be true. There's a reason that is already a well accepted fallacy, and to think that you're trying to justify using fallacious reasoning is astounding.

Let's try to get back on track though. The OP says that "I am an atheist because I lack belief" is not an okay claim to make. He pins it on "New Atheists", sure, but he implies that anyone who would say such a thing must be a "New Atheist". You say, "God is not worthy of belief" is an appropriate replacement for "I lack belief". I say "All evidence I've seen is bad" is a better way to phrase it. Mine can apply to all atheists even if some take it further. So, why is "All evidence I've seen is bad" an insufficient claim to argue about whatever a theist and an atheist want to argue about? Is this just an attempt to say, "If you can't prove me wrong about my beliefs, then that is evidence my beliefs are true"?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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In 2006 Wired Magazine author Mark Wolf coins the phrase, "New Atheist." The author described Richard Dawkins arguments as "logical," demonstrating that journalism schools don't require one to have even a basic understanding of logic.

Once open to scrutiny, professional philosophers that shared the atheistic worldview, but not the propagandistic approach, started speaking out.

Michael Ruse, atheist, philosopher of biology at Florida State, and author of hundreds of popular and scholarly papers, observes in an article about the new atheists,

"I have written elsewhere that The God Delusion makes me ashamed to be an atheist. Let me say that again. Let me say also that I am proud to be the focus of the invective of the new atheists. They are a bloody disaster and I want to be on the front line of those who say so."

Read more at Why I Think the New Atheists are a Bloody Disaster - Science and the Sacred

There are a host of rhetorical tricks played by so-called New Atheist and their fundamentalist followers these days. These tricks have leached into intellectually-challenged minds for decades and have achieved a certain acceptance by tweeting millennials and their ilk.

The goal of this series will be to help Christians defend against the rhetoric with rationality. There is much to be discussed with "Seekers," but little or none with "Seekers In Name Only," referred to as SINOs.

I will arrange these threads by the logical fallacy deployed by these New Atheists in order to serve as both a critique but also to familiarize the reader with plenty of examples so as to not follow in their footsteps.

Definitions are a good place to start. Dictionaries used to be a good resource but slang and Wikipedia have led to equivocation in favor of definitions that are not either historical or very descriptive.

You get to define the terms of an argument but when making truth claims make them clear by defining terms.

"God exists," is a truth-claim.

"God does not exist," is a truth-claim.

In both cases a truth-claim is being made.

In both cases the truth-claim must be defended.

Now historically they were defended. But recently, the last few decades, the New Atheist says, "Atheism is the lack of belief in Gods," by this redefinition they hope to avoid the burden of proof. But it muddles the meaning of "atheism," quite badly.

On this view, my cat and dog are "Atheists."

I'm sitting on an "Atheist," chair as I write this thread on my "Atheist," ipad.

If we wanted to join the New Atheist in their word games we could say that "Theism is the lack of belief that their are no gods," BAM we no longer have to defend our claim because I is stated in the negative!

Just kidding here. We do not have to act as if we haven't ever had a philosophy 101 class. We can take an intellectual honest route of defending our claims.

Of coarse we would give various arguments such as:

Cosmological (Leibniz/Kalam)

Teleological (fine-tuning or design inference for life from DNA etc.)

Moral

Existence of miracles/ fulfilled prophecy

Various arguments from desire (no atheists in fox holes)

Now to my theist friends I give the following advise:

1 - Learn how to spot logical fallacies and not use them in an argument.

2 - We can be generous to those who are genuinely seeking. If you were unaware of some of these tricks so too may some of the seekers be.

3 - If the advise above fails to help, you may just have to disengage. I often link debates and other critical peer-reviewed discussions so my opponent can engage the real argument and not play tricks. But many of these individuals are SINOs as mentioned above. You will determine this by their refusal to do the smallest amount of research on topics.
A blanket statement advising a philosophy 101 course at their nearest jr. college when they are finally motivated to get up off their couch should suffice as an exit strategy.

4 - Remember that you engaged the conversation in good-faith and have been manipulated by propaganda. Propaganda is a shortcut for the intellectual lazy or intellectually challenged. You don't (I hope) use propaganda to manipulate the seeker, you deserve the same respect. Don't be bullied by ignorant fools.

This advise cuts both ways. Ray Comfort, Ken Ham, Duane Gish all use similar fallacious propagandistic approaches to manipulate people to adopt the Christian Worldview.

5. We are not "proving anything!"

Since Descartes modern philosophy has shown that we can't "prove" we are not a brain in a vat being manipulated to experience everything we experience. In fact we can't "prove" we live in an external world, with other minds (people), or that the past is real, or that the world operates consistently over time. In none. Our most foundational knowledge assumptions are "provable," what are the chances of proving theological truths based on historical information, especially given all the competing explanatory inferences?

So don't get drawn into "proving" just focus on theism being the best explanation of the things we experience and the concepts we know.

For theists, I recommend anything by William Lane Craig, his site is a valuable resource for beginners and advanced apologetics.

For atheists, I recommend Graham Oppy, J.H. Sobel, Quinten Smith, Kai Nielsen, J.L. Mackey, Michael Ruse, and the most prolific of the bunch (before he abandoned atheism), Antony Flew.

People to avoid do to propagandistic approaches Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Atkins, Krauss, Coyne.

For good programming that engages these issues from a rational standpoint I advise a program called, "Closer to The Truth."

The more you people insist on these semantic labels... It's almost like you WANT unbelievers to actively claim that there is no god.

Meanwhile, just about all self-identified atheists on this site state explicitly that they don't make such a claim.

So I can only wonder why you people insist on going on and on and on about it...
 
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Non sequitur

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Variant admits the general tendency here. If I said to Dawkins, "I am going to present you with an argument for theism that you have never heard, and before seeing it you will be given the chance to privately wager on whether the argument will convince you." Do you think he would wager against the argument? I think it is obvious that he would. Heck, you yourself admitted that the New Atheists are militant, combative, disparaging. They mock religious people, they think they are stupid. They produce documentaries showcasing fundamentalists denying scientific consensus. You don't think any of this produces any sort of inclination about new arguments?

I am going to present you with an argument for atheism that you have never heard, and before seeing it you will be given the chance to privately wager on whether the argument will convince you.

Before I tell you, on a scale of 0-10, how inclined do you think you will be to be convinced?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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bravo.

Rare breed anymore. Who are your favorite atheists and how did you come to reject the four horseman of New Atheism that have been such pop icons for the last two decades?

Do you realise that most atheists were atheist long before they even knew who these guys are?

It's you people who make a much bigger deal of these guys then atheists themselves, you know...

Maybe you should think about that for a second.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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No straw man...you may have to look that fallacy up, oh that's right you don't care for definitions.

I am exposing NEW ATHEIST SEMANTIC GAMES!

I AM DOING THAT WITH THE HELP OF PROFESSIONAL ATHEIST PHILOSOPHERS.

If you want to make up your own language, be my guest.

You have mislabeled "atheism" so that all things that exist other that theists are atheists. This is why we don't use "lack of belief.," as a descriptor.

Your response...misrepresent my claim as a semantic game. Opps.

Honest question for you...
Why does this matter so much to you, what label is used to describe it?

Wheter you call me an "agnostic" or an "atheist" or a "gobblydockdu" - it changes NOTHING to what I actually believe or don't believe concerning theistic claims.

No matter which semantic games you are trying to play, the end result will be the exact same:
- theists make god/supernatural claims
- i look at those claims, see no evidence and find them utterly unconvincing
- as a result, I reject those claims

Call me what you wish. It won't change reality.

So, as for my question: why is this such a big deal for you?
 
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Non sequitur

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Claims 1 - P exists

Claim 2 - P does not exist

Claim 3 - P may exist or not exist

Claim 4 - It is impossible to know whether P exists or not.

I'm thinking of a number between 1-10.
P is that number.
The default position on that it being even or odd is neutral.
I tell you P is even.

Do you believe that or do you reject that position?
 
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Uber Genius

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wat

You were all up in arms that you'd have to start calling everything "atheist" as if that were some kind of argument for something. I have shown you that that is totally irrelevant.

More than one word can describe someone's position at one time. I have no reason to believe gods exists. Which means I lack a belief in gods. Therefor I am an atheist. I also admit that I have no way to prove gods don't exist. Therefor I am agnostic. I have no idea why this troubles you so.

Opps.

Back to square one.

Knowledge and belief are separate categories!

Your chart conflates and these categories horribly (known as a category error or fallacy) so that no philosophical distinction exists between the following claims:

I believe no god(s) exist

I have no beliefs about the existence of god(s) anymore that I believe there is gold on the planet Pluto.

I believe no one can know if god(s) exist.

Do you even recognize that atheism, theism, and rational discussion of what justifies those beliefs is a philosophical question. It needs philosophical specificity not rhetorical tricks?
 
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Uber Genius

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I'm thinking of a number between 1-10.
P is that number.
The default position on that it being even or odd is neutral.
I tell you P is even.

Do you believe that or do you reject that position?
Strange, you are using philosophical language, and your not de plume is along he same lines and yet you miss a very simple philosophy 101 concept, in fact several.

1st you have given us a false analogy.

There are four possible claims given the premises:

1 it is odd
2 it is even
3 I don't know whether it is odd or even
4 no one other than you can know given the private nature of such knowledge

Now if I ask you how many claims are there in the list above are you really going to say "2?"

2nd - The equivocation of claims 1,3&4 in to a "lack of belief in an even number, clouds the issue (conflates) rather than adding clarity. Now my dog, babies, inanimate objects have the property of lacking belief in even.

3rd - It doesn't support knowledge of atheistic beliefs.

Knowledge is defined as justified (giving reasons for) belief.

Do your really want to keep saying, "Because I defined my terms in the negative therefore I don't have to justify the belief?" Fine, but it. But now the statement "I believe there are no god(s)," is just a faith statement and not Christian trust in a person based on evidence. But a New Atheist definition of faith, believing something without any evidence. This is why atheist philosophers lead with evidence why there is no God.

But you did get someone to "like" your comment. Probably the pseudo-philosophical language and name.
 
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Uber Genius

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Because trying to ridicule the stance you and I share (agnostic atheism) is too difficult. That, and some apologists just can't accept that our position has no burden of proof.
This is false.

I have repeatedly done the opposite and called out conflating the term atheist makes those who have not weighed the claims or are unsure, associated with those who make the claim, "I know there are no such things as God(s)!"

You can't have it both ways, defend new atheist conflation and false dichotomies and claim we are attacking your non-knowledge claim.

This is by one bad thinking but dishonest.

I have no knowledge about whether there is gold on the planet Pluto.

If someone claims they know there is gold there they must provide evidence!

If someone claims there is gold, guess what, they have to provide evidence.

If someone says I don't have any idea that claim AND ONLY THAT CLAIM, doesn't need to be justified because t is not a knowledge claim!

This is the whole crux of what I have been saying and you have been rejecting.

Since my arguments make space for, and distinguish knowledge categories that help differentiate atheists from agnostic, and you have fought them tooth and nail, it seems reasonable that you may also be an agnostic the way Richard Dawkins conflates that term as well.

Any agnostic would have applauded this thread, had they had the befefit of a single college philosophy 101 class.
 
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Uber Genius

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Because of the continual rhetorical tricks you are deploying, I have decided to answer you with responses by an atheist philosopher out of Australia.

Gnostic - Certain about claims.
Agnostic - Uncertain about claims.

"The first thing I can say here is that belief and knowledge are not usually paired this way. As our justification for a belief being true gets stronger, it eventually qualifies as knowledge (because knowledge is at least a ‘justified, true, belief’). So this makes both the gnostic positions rather redundant, as you necessarily have to have a belief if you also have knowledge."

What I'm showing is common usage today. You can argue until you're blue in the face against it, but atheists will continue to define themselves the way they do, and you can either get over it or cease to have productive conversations.

"When we’re talking about scientific concepts, we make the effort to use appropriate scientific language. We ought to make the same effort to be philosophically precise in matters of philosophy. ‘Atheism’ and ‘belief’ are also technical terms in philosophy. This might rub some anti-philosophical types the wrong way, but like it or not, if you engage in rational argument, you’re doing philosophy. And anything worth doing is worth doing correctly."

I'm on the side of the atheist philosopher here. You seem to be advocating for the "anti-philosophical approach," despite your supposed "philosophy degree."

This double-speak is more than frustrating.
 
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Cute Tink

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Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
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