What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

[morse86]

Darth,

I Cor 14:2 (NIV) refutes your view: 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'.

Oz

Nice try. How about you read the whole chapter instead of just 1 verse? Also, get a real bible.

The chapter is talking about why we should speak in easy to understand words and in a language the person you're talking to can understand.

1 Corinthians 14:9:
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.


Too many people here pull out 1 verse and refuse to read the entire chapter in context. Speaking in tongues means speaking in multiple languages. There were many people that came to see Jesus that spoke different kinds of languages....that's why the apostles were given the "gift" to speak in many tongues, it was a miracle.

 

[OzSpen]

Nice try. How about you read the whole chapter instead of just 1 verse? Also, get a real bible.

The chapter is talking about why we should speak in easy to understand words and in a language the person you're talking to can understand.

Morse,

I agree that Paul's emphasis throughout 1 Cor 14 is on intelligibility, i.e. preference for prophecy and tongues must have interpretation.

However, 1 Cor 14:18 (NIV) states clearly that Paul is not against the gift of tongues: 'I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you'. That's hardly a disclaimer for speaking in tongues.

I happen to know 1 Cor 14 very well as I'm currently nearing the end of teaching it to a mid-week Bible study.

Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Even so, the gifts have ceased.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot support that statement.

"A Description of the Gifts of the Spirit, "Now concerning spiritual gifts (or "graces," meaning a God-given ability for service, I do not want you to be unaware." -Paul

4. Pastor-teacher (Greek: poimen didaskalos). The spiritual ability to shepherd the flock of God (guarding, guiding, encouraging, warning, etc.), feed them the Word of God, and equip them to find their gifts so that they, too, can do the work of ministry (Eph. 4:11, 12). Peter (John 21:15-17;1 Peter 5:1-15)."

Source

Lets break this down.

There are three chapters in three books that speak of "gifts".

In 1 Cor. 12 we have:

1. Wisdom
2. Knowledge
3. Faith
4. Healing
5. Miracles
6. Prophecy
7. Discernment
8. Tongues
9. Interpretation
10. Apostle
11. Teacher
12. Helps
13. Adminsitration

In Romans 12 we have:

1. Encouragement
2. Giving
3. Mercy
4. Prophesying
5. Teacher
6. Service
7. Leadership

In Ephesians 4 we have:

1. Evangelist
2. Prophet
3. Apostle
4. Pastor/teacher

Ibid

The qualifications for Apostle are found in Acts, so we can safely say that the "gift" or "office" of "Apostle" is closed, (cf Acts 1: 21-22 for the qualifications for Apostle) unless your of the "Word of Faith" group.

Other than that one, I see the gifts still being given and used as of today.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm sorry, but I just cannot support that statement.

"A Description of the Gifts of the Spirit, "Now concerning spiritual gifts (or "graces," meaning a God-given ability for service, I do not want you to be unaware." -Paul

4. Pastor-teacher (Greek: poimen didaskalos). The spiritual ability to shepherd the flock of God (guarding, guiding, encouraging, warning, etc.), feed them the Word of God, and equip them to find their gifts so that they, too, can do the work of ministry (Eph. 4:11, 12). Peter (John 21:15-17;1 Peter 5:1-15)."

Source

Lets break this down.

There are three chapters in three books that speak of "gifts".

In 1 Cor. 12 we have:

1. Wisdom
2. Knowledge
3. Faith
4. Healing
5. Miracles
6. Prophecy
7. Discernment
8. Tongues
9. Interpretation
10. Apostle
11. Teacher
12. Helps
13. Adminsitration

In Romans 12 we have:

1. Encouragement
2. Giving
3. Mercy
4. Prophesying
5. Teacher
6. Service
7. Leadership

In Ephesians 4 we have:

1. Evangelist
2. Prophet
3. Apostle
4. Pastor/teacher

Ibid

The qualifications for Apostle are found in Acts, so we can safely say that the "gift" or "office" of "Apostle" is closed, (cf Acts 1: 21-22 for the qualifications for Apostle) unless your of the "Word of Faith" group.

Other than that one, I see the gifts still being given and used as of today.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

This is an excellent post by you, making great points. There is one area in which I disagree and that is on the gift of apostle which I understand continues today.

What is the ministry of a contemporary apostle?

A broader definition of an apostle is a God-sent messenger of the churches, what would be his or her job description? In Eph. 2:20 and 3:5, Paul stated that he himself manifested the gifts as apostle and prophet.

An examination of the gifts of apostles, prophets and evangelists in the New Testament indicates that these gifts were, generally, itinerant ministries among the early churches.

a. These itinerant workers “founded churches by evangelizing and built them up through prophetic utterances. There can be little question that this is the understanding of the term ‘apostle’ in Paul’s letters” [see I Cor. 9:1-2; 2 Cor. 10:15-18; and Rom. 15:17-20]” (Fee, 1994, p. 707).

b. Therefore, it can be concluded that an apostle, as a general rule, would be a pioneering church planter anywhere in the world, whose ministry also involved equipping other believers for their work of ministry.

Conclusion

The Greek aorist indicative, as in I Cor. 12:28 and Eph. 4:7, 11, could be translated as simple past tenses in the English (as in the ESV) and this would indicate that the gift of apostle has ceased.

However, a broader understanding of apostle (as shown in my article) and the use of the gnomic (timeless) or dramatic (expressing what has just taken place) aorists should be a pointer to God’s continuing gift of apostles. Since Greek uses the aorist, leaving the context to suggest the order of action, Eph. 4:11-14 shows that the five ministry gifts, including apostles, are needed “to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith . . . to mature manhood. . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine” (ESV).

That's a ministry that is needed throughout the church age. This will be a continuing ministry until Christ returns. Some say that it’s okay for evangelists and pastor-teachers to continue throughout the church age, and that apostles and prophets are excluded, makes one’s agenda obvious.

When Niccolo Paganini willed his finely crafted and lovingly used violin to the city of Genoa, he demanded that it never be played again. It was a gift designated for preservation, but not destined for service.​

On the other hand, when the resurrected Christ willed his spiritual gifts to the children of God, he commanded that they be used. They were gifts not designated for preservation, but destined for service (Green, 1982:352).​

The gifts of apostles are not given by the risen Christ to be defined away or annihilated, but they are destined for service. May we never silence God’s gracious gifts to us — the body of Christ. Paul, to the Corinthians, wrote: “God arranged the members in the body, each one of them as he chose” (I Cor. 12:18). May we never snuff out the gifted members of the body that God chose! (taken from my article, Are there apostles in the 21st century?)

Also see the article, Apostles Who Weren't Part of the Twelve? (Jimmy Akin).

Oz

Works consulted

Green, M. P. (ed) 1982. Illustrations for biblical preaching. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

This is an excellent post by you, making great points. There is one area in which I disagree and that is on the gift of apostle which I understand continues today.

What is the ministry of a contemporary apostle?

A broader definition of an apostle is a God-sent messenger of the churches, what would be his or her job description? In Eph. 2:20 and 3:5, Paul stated that he himself manifested the gifts as apostle and prophet.

An examination of the gifts of apostles, prophets and evangelists in the New Testament indicates that these gifts were, generally, itinerant ministries among the early churches.

a. These itinerant workers “founded churches by evangelizing and built them up through prophetic utterances. There can be little question that this is the understanding of the term ‘apostle’ in Paul’s letters” [see I Cor. 9:1-2; 2 Cor. 10:15-18; and Rom. 15:17-20]” (Fee, 1994, p. 707).

b. Therefore, it can be concluded that an apostle, as a general rule, would be a pioneering church planter anywhere in the world, whose ministry also involved equipping other believers for their work of ministry.

Conclusion

The Greek aorist indicative, as in I Cor. 12:28 and Eph. 4:7, 11, could be translated as simple past tenses in the English (as in the ESV) and this would indicate that the gift of apostle has ceased.

However, a broader understanding of apostle (as shown in my article) and the use of the gnomic (timeless) or dramatic (expressing what has just taken place) aorists should be a pointer to God’s continuing gift of apostles. Since Greek uses the aorist, leaving the context to suggest the order of action, Eph. 4:11-14 shows that the five ministry gifts, including apostles, are needed “to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith . . . to mature manhood. . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine” (ESV).

That's a ministry that is needed throughout the church age. This will be a continuing ministry until Christ returns. Some say that it’s okay for evangelists and pastor-teachers to continue throughout the church age, and that apostles and prophets are excluded, makes one’s agenda obvious.

When Niccolo Paganini willed his finely crafted and lovingly used violin to the city of Genoa, he demanded that it never be played again. It was a gift designated for preservation, but not destined for service.​

On the other hand, when the resurrected Christ willed his spiritual gifts to the children of God, he commanded that they be used. They were gifts not designated for preservation, but destined for service (Green, 1982:352).​

The gifts of apostles are not given by the risen Christ to be defined away or annihilated, but they are destined for service. May we never silence God’s gracious gifts to us — the body of Christ. Paul, to the Corinthians, wrote: “God arranged the members in the body, each one of them as he chose” (I Cor. 12:18). May we never snuff out the gifted members of the body that God chose! (taken from my article, Are there apostles in the 21st century?)

Also see the article, Apostles Who Weren't Part of the Twelve? (Jimmy Akin).

Oz

Works consulted

Green, M. P. (ed) 1982. Illustrations for biblical preaching. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.

I would almost agree with you.

True, I did leave out the section where it speaks of an "apostle" as one sent by a church, i.e.: messenger.

Example: I was sent by my church as an "apostle/messenger" to the SBC meeting last year.

If you want to really get technical, Jesus Christ was/could be called an "apostle".

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;" -Heb. 3:1 (KJV)

"Οθεν, ἀδελφοὶ ἅγιοι, κλήσεως ἐπουρανίου μέτοχοι, κατανοήσατε τὸν ἀπόστολον καὶ ἀρχιερέα τῆς ὁμολογίας ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν," -Heb. 3:1 (GNT)

The "Office" of Apostle, i.e.: Peter, Paul, or any of the others as described in the scriptures, is closed.

Based solely on what is said in Acts 1:21-22, I do not know anybody now, who was with Jesus when He came into His ministry, or walked and talked with Jesus, or saw His crucifixion and resurrection.

"Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." -Acts 1:21-22 (KJV)

Or, as Paul said to the Corinthians: "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" -2 Cor. 12:12

"The apostles were miracle workers who could bear personal witness to the risen Lord.

Summary

It is a carefully guarded group of men who enjoyed the gift of apostleship, fifteen total -- the original eleven, Matthias, James, Barnabas, and Paul. Evidently, this elite group was not open to any others. Others are called apostles (II Corinthians 8:23 and Philippians 2:25), but these are church apostles. There is no small difference between one commissioned by and representing a church and one personally commissioned by and representing Jesus Christ! These were the men with the unique honor and authority in the church. There were also apostolic legates, such as Timothy and Titus, who possessed some degree of authority as well, but their authority was invested by the apostle Paul, not by Christ directly. Their authority was not absolute as it was with the apostles. A man today claiming apostleship should carefully consider the implications of such a claim.

Their Demise

Throughout the history of the church, apostolic succession has been claimed by some; the Roman Catholic church is well known for such claims. But many arguments militate against the possibility of any modern apostles.

1) The qualifications for the office cannot be met today (see above).

2) The nature of their work prohibits their continuance -- they were foundational with a revelatory ministry; the church now is in the superstructure phase of its building, and revelations have ceased.

3) The ability to perform sign gifts, the accompanying credentials of the apostles, is absent today.

4) Paul was the last apostle.

5) No one today has such absolute authority over the churches. Pastoral authority and leadership is one thing, but apostolic authority is quite another. Furthermore, no one today has the privilege of doctrinal infallibility as did the apostles (the pope's claims to the contrary notwithstanding). Quite the contrary, Christians today are simply to measure all teachings by the foundation-standard given by the apostles themselves (Jude 17).

6) New Testament examples of successors to the apostles (eg, Timothy and Titus) are never called apostles or regarded with full apostolic authority. They were to carry on the apostle's work as, in a sense, all Christians are, but genuine apostolic succession was never considered; indeed, those first generation Christians themselves recognized the uniqueness of the apostles of Christ.

7) The early church (just after the apostles) recognized their absence.

Conclusion

Apostleship was a temporary and very important gift. But only a very few received it. No one today is so called or gifted, nor can anyone meet the necessary qualifications."

Source

Sorry, I just cannot see getting around the qualifications as listed in Acts 1:21-22. Paul being the exception by his personal meeting with Jesus on the Damascus road.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I would also add:

"All these and many more scriptures show that the apostles were special men commissioned for a unique role in a particular time period for the Church. (Ephesians 2:20) “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…Notice past tense, been built. Once a foundation is laid it does not need to be laid down again, it is built upon “ It was upon these men the apostles and prophets that the foundation the church was built on, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. Those who claim apostolic authority today are attempting to rebuild the church whose foundation was already laid and built . Later on in Eph.4:11 Paul writes, “and he himself gave some to be apostles and prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers…” he does not say he keeps on giving apostles and prophets for the simple reason formerly stated they were the foundation of the church. Paul makes no distinction of what is continued or what is not in this passage. Anything mentioned in Eph.4:11 must be in light of the former statement in 2:20 of the apostles and prophets laying down the foundation in the past tense (foundation in the scriptures for us to come to the unity of the faith.) We do see Pastors and teachers continue as they are not supernatural offices or sign gifts but leaders and rulers over the congregations after the apostles were gone. The Apostles wrote down the teachings for the Church to follow. If their are apostles today in the sense of the Church’s beginnings there would have to be new revelation. This would have to be included as Scripture because apostolic revelation is authoritative and infallible. It would then be on the same level as our Bible. This is what the Mormon church claims and many other cult groups. To say we have modern day apostles like Matthew and Paul is to say Scripture is continually being written which means rejecting the former revelation of the apostles given by Jesus. As John writes in his 1st epistle 1:1-4 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.”

The greatest men who influenced the church throughout history never claimed they were apostles or prophets. They never taught that these 2 offices continued. Athanasius, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Great theologians like Charles Hodge , A.H Strong or Gill and all others were satisfied to build upon the foundation already laid by the original apostles. We find the only apostles mentioned in Church history after the bible was completed were false ones.

The gift and office of apostleship was the first and most important gift given after Christ ascended, but it was a temporary gift and office that does not continue to our present time. For the simple reason people do not see Jesus Christ in His bodily resurrection. For this to be so he would have to leave the right hand of God and make a special appearance. We know from scripture the next time he comes is for everyone at the rapture, there are no secret comings. The apostles had completed their mission of laying the foundation of the Church and the doctrine was inscripturated. God's Word is complete no new revelation is needed. While the Lord does speak to us today he does not give any new revelation or doctrine since it has been delivered and completed.

The true apostles are unique in their ministry , office, and power never to be duplicated. They were for a specific period in Church history. It is impossible for their to be modern day apostles as in the beginning since none of those today possess the necessary credentials to be an apostle. In 1 Cor.4:9 Paul explains what it was to be an apostle. “For I think God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; “ (this is in the aorist tense meaning that they do not continue.) The apostles example were that they gave their lives for Christ and the Church. It was their teaching and it being written including miracles that made them apostles.

In warning, Jesus said to those who were following Him for the blessings, 'Unless you people see signs and wonders you will by no means believe.' Our choice today is to believe His Word that he spoke, not self-appointed men in spiritual offices in which they clearly do not belong.

Jude said, “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jude 17).This is Gods word to those who think they are in the category of the ancient apostles.

The apostolic age was unique in histories timeline and it ended. Jesus says it, Paul does, history teaches this, theology teaches it, and the New Testament itself continually affirms it."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DarthNeo]

I'm sorry, but I just cannot support that statement.

"A Description of the Gifts of the Spirit, "Now concerning spiritual gifts (or "graces," meaning a God-given ability for service, I do not want you to be unaware." -Paul

4. Pastor-teacher (Greek: poimen didaskalos). The spiritual ability to shepherd the flock of God (guarding, guiding, encouraging, warning, etc.), feed them the Word of God, and equip them to find their gifts so that they, too, can do the work of ministry (Eph. 4:11, 12). Peter (John 21:15-17;1 Peter 5:1-15)."

Source

Lets break this down.

There are three chapters in three books that speak of "gifts".

In 1 Cor. 12 we have:

1. Wisdom
2. Knowledge
3. Faith
4. Healing
5. Miracles
6. Prophecy
7. Discernment
8. Tongues
9. Interpretation
10. Apostle
11. Teacher
12. Helps
13. Adminsitration

In Romans 12 we have:

1. Encouragement
2. Giving
3. Mercy
4. Prophesying
5. Teacher
6. Service
7. Leadership

In Ephesians 4 we have:

1. Evangelist
2. Prophet
3. Apostle
4. Pastor/teacher

Ibid

The qualifications for Apostle are found in Acts, so we can safely say that the "gift" or "office" of "Apostle" is closed, (cf Acts 1: 21-22 for the qualifications for Apostle) unless your of the "Word of Faith" group.

Other than that one, I see the gifts still being given and used as of today.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Okay, I will say the gifts the way the Apostles used them have ceased, such as healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, and interpretation. When the apostles used gifts, they did not pray and say "if it be God's will," they simple performed the act KNOWING they had God's permission to do so...

God Himself can still do healing and miracles today, but at least in the states, no one has this gift. If they did, why are they not going to every hospital and healing in Christ's name...?

 

[Dave-W]

There are three chapters in three books that speak of "gifts".

In 1 Cor. 12 we have:

1. Wisdom
2. Knowledge
3. Faith
4. Healing
5. Miracles
6. Prophecy
7. Discernment
8. Tongues
9. Interpretation
10. Apostle
11. Teacher
12. Helps
13. Adminsitration

In Romans 12 we have:

1. Encouragement
2. Giving
3. Mercy
4. Prophesying
5. Teacher
6. Service
7. Leadership

In Ephesians 4 we have:

1. Evangelist
2. Prophet
3. Apostle
4. Pastor/teacher

1. I would like to add a 4th:

in 1 Peter 4 we have:

1. Speaking
2. Serving

Chuck Swindoll says an easy way to remember the lists of gifts is this: 12, 12, 4, 4.

 

[Dave-W]

The qualifications for Apostle are found in Acts, so we can safely say that the "gift" or "office" of "Apostle" is closed, (cf Acts 1: 21-22 for the qualifications for Apostle) unless your of the "Word of Faith" group.

I would put that the office of the "Twelve" is closed - it was closed in Acts 1.

But there are other apostles than those. Barnabas is listed BEFORE Saul/Paul as an apostle in Acts 14.14. He was from Cyprus. Acts 4.36 We have no record of him being anywhere near Jesus during HIS lifetime.

Why would one have to be "Word of Faith" to see that in scripture?

 

[DeaconDean]

Okay, I will say the gifts the way the Apostles used them have ceased, such as healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, and interpretation. When the apostles used gifts, they did not pray and say "if it be God's will," they simple performed the act KNOWING they had God's permission to do so...

God Himself can still do healing and miracles today, but at least in the states, no one has this gift. If they did, why are they not going to every hospital and healing in Christ's name...?

Why don't every human being that hears the gospel get saved?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I would put that the office of the "Twelve" is closed - it was closed in Acts 1.

After the choice of Matthias?

But there are other apostles than those. Barnabas is listed BEFORE Saul/Paul as an apostle in Acts 14.14. He was from Cyprus. Acts 4.36 We have no record of him being anywhere near Jesus during HIS lifetime.

Now that I cannot answer. We do know that he was an early Christian Jew.

"Barnabas, a native of Cyprus and a Levite, is first mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles as a member of the early Christian community in Jerusalem, who sold some land that he owned and gave the proceeds to the community (Acts 4:36-37)."

Source

And it may be, I'm not saying that it is, but it may be that Barnabas was among the "seventy" sent out.

Source

(I also am aware that this is by Orthodox Tradition, but it is worth noting)

If that is true, then he would met at least one of the criteria.

But it is possible that he was an "apostle" before Acts 14 and only mentioned as one in this place of scripture.

Why would one have to be "Word of Faith" to see that in scripture?

Do you not remember reading that a certain Word of Faith minister was conferred the title of "Apostle" (big A, not little)?

Apostle Fredrick K. C. Price

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry, I just cannot see getting around the qualifications as listed in Acts 1:21-22. Paul being the exception by his personal meeting with Jesus on the Damascus road.
/QUOTE]

Dean,

I agree that there was a unique group of special apostles for the founding of the church.

However, I cannot get past the fact that the apostle Paul teaches that there will be continuing gifts of apostles (1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11-12).

In my previous post I provided further evidence.

Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

I agree that there was a unique group of special apostles for the founding of the church.

However, I cannot get past the fact that the apostle Paul teaches that there will be continuing gifts of apostles (1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11-12).

In my previous post I provided further evidence.

Oz

Apostles as in messengers, apostles as in those who would continue to spread the Gospel.

Not Apostle as in the original 11, or as in the choice of Matthais, or Saul, or even possibly Barnabas.

Secondly, it has been considered for a long time that those who met the qualifications for "Apostle" were deemed "infallible in their teachings.

" In ch. 2 he says, we speak wisdom, the wisdom of God, the hidden wisdom which the great of this world never could discover, but which God has revealed by his Spirit. 2. That gift stands first as the most important, and as the characteristic gift of the apostles, as may be inferred from v. 28, where the arrangement of offices to a certain extent corresponds with the arrangement of the gifts here presented. Among the gifts, the first is the word of wisdom; and among the offices, the first is that of the apostles. It is perfectly natural that this correspondence should: be observed at the beginning, even if it be not carried out. This gift in its full measure belonged to the apostles alone; partially, however, also, to the prophets of the New Testament. Hence apostles and prophets are often associated as possessing the same gift, although in different degrees. “Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” Ephesians 2:20. “As now revealed unto the holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,” Ephesians 3:5; see also 4:11.

The difference, as before stated, between the apostles and prophets, was, that the former were permanently inspired, so that their teaching was at all times infallible, whereas the prophets were infallible only occasionally.

In Ephesians 4:11, Paul says, “God gave some apostles, some prophets,” etc. He began here to use the same form, ‘God hath set some in the church,’ but varies the construction, and says, First, apostles. This verse is an amplification of the preceding one. In v. 27 he said the church is analogous to the human body. He here shows that the analogy consists in the common life of the church, or the indwelling Spirit of God, manifesting itself in a diversity of gifts and offices, just as the common life of the body manifests itself in different organs and members. In the church some were apostles, i.e. immediate messengers of Christ, rendered infallible as teachers and rulers by the gift of plenary inspiration. Secondly, prophets, i.e. men who spoke for God as the occasional organs of the Spirit. Thirdly, teachers , i.e. uninspired men who had received the gift of teaching."

Charles Hodge. 1 Corinthians, Chapter 12, Of Spiritual Gifts, vs. 1-31

So you would have me to believe that today, in the year of Our Lord, 2017, there are still today men, Apostles, who: "permanently inspired, so that their teaching was at all times infallible"?

Paul speaks of his showing “the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles” (2 Corinthians 12:12).

Also, if there is to be a continuation of "Apostles" big "A", then they would also have to fulfill as Paul described, the gift of signs, wonders and miracles in the presence of others.

I don't believe it or accept it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Dave-W]

After the choice of Matthias?

Yes.

Do you not remember reading that a certain Word of Faith minister was conferred the title of "Apostle" (big A, not little)?

Yes. And a few dozen other pentecostal and cultic preachers self-proclaiming that title before the WOF movement took off in the early 1980s. They had no connection to the WOF movement.

I do not recall any of the architects of the WOF error claiming to be Apostles (Big or little A):

E.W. Kenyon, Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Hagin Sr., Kenneth Copeland, Lester Sumrall.

 

[Dave-W]

Not Apostle as in the original 11, or as in the choice of Matthais, or Saul, or even possibly Barnabas.

Secondly, it has been considered for a long time that those who met the qualifications for "Apostle" were deemed "infallible in their teachings.

James, our Lord's brother (not to be confused with the brother of John), was also called in scripture an apostle.

Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

 

[OzSpen]

Secondly, it has been considered for a long time that those who met the qualifications for "Apostle" were deemed "infallible in their teachings.

That's only if you refer to capital A Apostles - the Twelve and Paul - whose teaching is contained in Scripture. For other apostles, infallible teachings are not the case. According to NT Greek scholar Dr Gordon Fee, his understanding of continuing apostles (in commenting on 1 Cor 1:1) is that

part of the problem with the term [apostle] is that it has a sense of function as well as that of office or position. That is, it primarily had to do with some who were "sent" by Christ to preach the gospel (cf. 1:17). But those who were so sent, and especially those who founded churches as a result of their evangelizing, came to be known as apostles, a designation that had inherent in it a sense of position as well (especially for those who were directly associated with Christ in his earthly ministry)....

It is no surprise that Paul should list "apostles" first [in 1 Cor 12:28]. The surprise is that they should be on this list at all, and that he should list them in the plural. As noted in 1;1, for Paul this is both a "functional" and "positional/official" term. In keeping with the other members on this list, it is primarily "functional" here, probably anticipating the concern for the "building up" of the body that he has already hinted at in v. 7 and will stress in chap. 14 (Fee 1987:30, 620, emphasis added).​

I concur with Fee's job description for the apostle of today: 'Those who were so sent, and especially those who founded churches as a result of their evangelizing, came to be known as apostles'. We know they are needed for the continuing equipping of believers for ministry as Eph 4:11-12 confirms.

Also, if there is to be a continuation of "Apostles" big "A", then they would also have to fulfill as Paul described, the gift of signs, wonders and miracles in the presence of others.

I have never suggested that there a continuation of Apostles on an equivalent level to Jesus' Twelve apostles. However, we know from the NT that there were other apostles besides the Twelve. This is evident in 1 Cor 15:3-9 (ESV):

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God (emphasis added).​

Clearly there were 'all the apostles' in addition to 'the twelve'. That's the way it was in the first century and 'all the apostles' continues into the 21st century.

Oz

Works consulted
Fee, G D 1987. The First Epistle to the Corinthians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament, F F Bruce gen ed). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

Why don't every human being that hears the gospel get saved?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

The answer is simple: 'Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God' (John 1:12 NIV).

If they don't receive Jesus by believing in his Name, they will not become children of God.

Of course, that view clashes with your Calvinistic understanding.

Oz

 

[Dave-W]

That's only if you refer to capital A Apostles - the Twelve and Paul - whose teaching is contained in Scripture.

Only 3 of the 12 had their teachings put in the NT: Peter, Mathew and John.

Then there is Rav Sh'aul - or the apostle Paul. Some count him as in the 12 even though he in no way fits the criteria in Acts 1. I do not.

James, Luke and John Mark were not part of the 12 but had their teachings included. No where are Luke or John Mark listed as apostles.

And then there is the book of Hebrews. We have no record of who wrote it. My opinion is Apollos. Others think it was Barnabas, (who WAS listed as an apostle) and some even put forth Priscilla or Junia. What we know is it was written about the same time as Paul and Peter being martyred, and before the destruction of the temple.

 

[DeaconDean]

I do not recall any of the architects of the WOF error claiming to be Apostles (Big or little A):

E.W. Kenyon, Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Hagin Sr., Kenneth Copeland, Lester Sumrall.

Look up "Apostle Fredrick K. C. Price."

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

James, our Lord's brother (not to be confused with the brother of John), was also called in scripture an apostle.

Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Here again, technically, he would have met as one or more of the qualifications for Apostle in Acts 1:21-22.

God Bless

Till all are one.